I just wandered in here. I wasn't aware of the cataclysm that would provoke.
This thread took an interesting turn. Now you are hating him and you are the one out of your mind. I wonder if redcafe would benefit from having a "Bruno endless appreciation thread" where critique is not allowed in. The usual suspects wouldn't have to suffer from such disgraceful comments like yours.
Is it sensible to carry on with Bruno as the focal point of our team next season?
- Thread starter Bastian
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I don't judge, I am just observing. The Bruno topic is very polarized and triggers a lot of people.
It really is a shame that on a forum about Man United, you can't talk about Man United players even slightly positively lest you bring down wrath upon you.
What forum kicked you out? I'd like to join.
Yes. Ideally find a young understudy in a similar mold that has the capability to take over. I'm 100% sure Bruno would love to stay, he would also be willing to share minutes for the betterment of the team.
Fans deciding on a narrative then watching every game only to pick out moments that fit with what they have already decided they are going to see is so 2024.
See it with the growing Anti-Bruno thing and with Rashford, fans want the latter dropped so 3 mins into a game they will be shitting on him for "body language". Just watch the games on an individual basis and leave the agenda until after the game.
See it with the growing Anti-Bruno thing and with Rashford, fans want the latter dropped so 3 mins into a game they will be shitting on him for "body language". Just watch the games on an individual basis and leave the agenda until after the game.
Thats not really how I see it to be honest. It is all a tale of perspectives. Look at the latest posts in this thread. The criticism towards Bruno was very mild, yet it provoked a rather strong reaction. It isn't like positivity is only triggering that, negativity is triggering it as well. And those claims about a poster "hating" a player, it will all go downhill from there. Because it de-values the effort the other poster put in to lay out his reasoning. Imagine you wrote a post about how good a player is and somebody just brushed it aside calling you a fan boy. It is the same stuff from two different perspectives - and one side justifies with "fans should be supportive" and the other with "free speech".
This tensity (if ever) is only going away when people acknowledge their own triggering and try to be less emotional. Maybe just ignoring a post, maybe not taking the shortcut of hater and fanboy.
Sorry mate. I am delightful and therefor well liked whereever I go
Seems like emotions are clouding people judgment and understanding what the discussion is about. He's having a poor start to the season and looks like he ISN'T the focal point of the team, what is the whole point of this thread. I pointed out we have options that allow us to rotate him at least, possibly rest as well.
This thread took an interesting turn. Now you are hating him and you are the one out of your mind. I wonder if redcafe would benefit from having a "Bruno endless appreciation thread" where critique is not allowed in. The usual suspects wouldn't have to suffer from such disgraceful comments like yours.
His creativity numbers are not anything impressive yet this season (fact easy to check), he's keeping the ball better I think, but that's not why he's in the team. We have a number of players that are better at this aspect, that's not the point.
Not sure what's so controversive here that gets the people going.
Thats not really how I see it to be honest. It is all a tale of perspectives. Look at the latest posts in this thread. The criticism towards Bruno was very mild, yet it provoked a rather strong reaction. It isn't like positivity is only triggering that, negativity is triggering it as well. And those claims about a poster "hating" a player, it will all go downhill from there. Because it de-values the effort the other poster put in to lay out his reasoning. Imagine you wrote a post about how good a player is and somebody just brushed it aside calling you a fan boy. It is the same stuff from two different perspectives - and one side justifies with "fans should be supportive" and the other with "free speech".
This tensity (if ever) is only going away when people acknowledge their own triggering and try to be less emotional. Maybe just ignoring a post, maybe not taking the shortcut of hater and fanboy.
Sorry mate. I am delightful and therefor well liked whereever I go
Not being funny, mate, but you’ve come in here thinking you’re the voice of reason when actually you’re at the tail end of this and you’ve jumped to some absolutely ludicrous conclusions.
This started with the poster you’re now defending as being “very mild” with him claiming:
“he gives the ball away 50% of the time he has it”
And….
“He was Southampton’s best player”
And….
“He had a stinker”
(So yeah, he’s lost his mind on Bruno).
So yeah, emotions run a little higher when “fans” post such hyperbolic shite and the poster got called out on all of the above showing irrefutable facts. Just because he then backpedaled, you then caught the tail end and thought yourself the reasonable one.
Oh yeah and we also had another poster this morning claiming that despite Bruno always tending to be at the top of the charts for the most big chances created in the league; that HE is in fact the reason our strikers don’t score many goals, because, and I’ll quote the bat shit crazy nonsense….
“they all score many when they’re on international duty”.
Just “‘very mild criticism” though innit?
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He wasn‘t great but I wouldn‘t base anything on a few games. He racks up goal involvements like few others over the course of a season.
Mount was just getting into some form when he got injured again. I’m not sure yet how important he can become for the team in terms of creating chances.
If Højlund is fit, we can try giving Bruno a rest and playing Zirkzee there as well.
Amad is our best attacker right now.
An ever-present player like Bruno can't just be "moved on" like that. The replacement(s) need to be bedded in and gradually take over. That's my opinion at least.
Bruno has saved ETH's behind so many times, that nothing beside of an injury or an unbelievable bid from Saudi could see him off. While Erik's in charge that is.
Bruno has saved ETH's behind so many times, that nothing beside of an injury or an unbelievable bid from Saudi could see him off. While Erik's in charge that is.
I think if you look at the ton of chances we have created over these 5 games, they seem to be a lot more spread out amongst the team. Amad has been creating good opportunities, even Rashford and Garnacho are creating opportunities, so it does appear that in terms of chance creation the team so far this season has not relied on Bruno as much as previous seasons to create opportunities for us. If this keeps up then it would make it easier to swap Bruno out and try different midfield combinations e.g. Mount, Kobbie or Zirkzee in that role, if his form continues to dip. I think EtH would be hesitant to drop him when the team hasn't proved over a longer period of time that we can spread out the chance creation, which is understandable. I personally would prefer a player in Bruno's position in the mold of Odegaard but we don't have that.
True, but it's not like chance creation is the only thing that Bruno brings to the team. This is what he provides (in no particular order):
1. Very hard work
2. Smart movement off the ball
3. Very involved (he has far more touches/passes than Ødegaard and Palmer for instance)
4. Good defensive work (excellent for an AM)
5. Never injured
6. X-factor
Number 6 has not been very present in the first 4 games. But he has still somehow assisted 2 out of our 5 goals despite being far below his regular level. I think his assist on Saturday is an example of this X-factor.
So even with fewer key passes, I would still argue that it's a huge mistake to take Bruno out of the team. Especially when he's one of the few (generally positive) constants. I also think that it's good that other players start creating chances. Amad is looking good so far.
Has he though? Not trying to be deliberately argumentative I just can't recall that many times where Bruno has popped up with a bit of game-saving magic under Ten Hag.
Yeah I agree with your points. The point was more that in past seasons despite his unpredictability on the ball (both good and bad), dropping him was a definite no. Whereas now if dropping him a) doesn't reduce the chances we create as much and 2) we have multiple players who can step in to that role, and whilst not having his x factor, still allows us to cover the other areas you listed, then it wouldn't be as much of a blow. I see it as potentially a positive. If we get into a position where dropping/resting Bruno doesn't negatively affect us too much then it'll be a sign that the squad and overall performance is good. For example, if Mount played in that role vs southampton we definitely wouldn't have Bruno's X factor, but from a pressing perspective, interplay, I think he would have done a good job. Although to your point, can those potential replacements stay as fit as Bruno does. Still very early in this season anyway, it may turn out that Bruno might have to bail us out after all.
1. Everyone can agree, he absolutely works hard.
2. Partial agree. He runs too much all over the place and is like a headless chicken sometimes.
3. Again, not necessarily only a positive. He is too involved at times. It can be a detriment to the flow of a team to filter too much through one single player.
4. See point 2. His pressing is often mindless and counterproductive. He often leaves huge spaces behind him when he decides to overly commit to pressing. He is also not a tackler. So although his defensive workrate is top notch, his defensive success rate isn't.
5. True, huge positive.
6. I mean... Sure. But I'd argue this is both a positive and a negative. He tries too much, and he loses possession far too often when trying to go for these X-factor moments constantly.
Last season's tackles + interceptions per 90 minutes for Bruno, De Bruyne, Ødegaard and Palmer:
1. Bruno: 2.7
2. Ødegaard: 1.8
3. Palmer: 1.3
4. De Bruyne: 1.0
I think that this is evidence for smart movement off the ball, because Bruno also gets dribbled more than his peers. Bruno is really good at being at the right place at the right time, which means that he doesn't need to be physically strong or even that good at tackling to win the ball back.
Another point that supports this "theory" is how often he finds himself at the end of good chances in or around the box. He clearly has a very good understanding of the game.
Not every run off the ball needs to be a home run. Just because Bruno sometimes sprints alone towards the opponent's defenders, it doesn't mean that he's a headless chicken. Hell, a decent amount of these runs have ended up in chances over the years!
This wastefulness theory does not hold any water when you look at how often he loses possession (either by getting tackled or misplacing a pass). He only does marginally worse than his peers (but better this season!) and that is before adjusting for set-pieces, which naturally will bring the average down a bit.
Also: every top team needs x-factor. Which great team doesn't have at least a few players capable of producing magic out of thin air?
I guess Bruno is the only player in the squad (and Martinez if he's healthy) who could be a starter in ANY topclub of Europe. Yes, his behavior can be criticised , but he is by far te best and most creative player for years in the team. At the age of 30 he definitely has 2-3 years left on top level so to answer the question, yes. And on the other hand, would it be so easy to convince a top class young AM to join United? No way. The team is worse than ever, 8th place finish, no CL, mediocre squad, poor manager. Which young superstar would come? None, i guess. Even Dwight Yorke stated in an interview that this is the worst United since the start of PL, 1992. So, we should keep Bruno for at least 2 more seasons, build a better, more desirable team around him and once we reach the top 4 then replace him. That's my opinion.
So, would I.
Bruno is our smartest player: he gives us an 'edge' in any game... and he still has 'legs'. Yes, there have been games when his overall play has not been as consistent as the manager would want; in those games very few others have been able to cover for him, but against Southampton Bruno was not at his best, but others began to take up the slack, and he still had a vital assist.
There may come a time when Bruno will not be ETH's number one name on the match sheet, but I suspect it is someway off yet.
On 6. He does try to much at times but that's really because he's been our only player who might create something and he feels that he has to try the stuoid stuff in case it comes off, the fact that the likes of Amad are now starting to create more is likely to result in bruno not trying the Hollywood stuff so often
Yeah I guess that really hurt as you like to see yourself in that exact role, don't you?
I just had a looked at this thread and the posts from yesterday onwards. Can't really find those things. But we both know what kind of things pop up in his performance thread so yes, I'd consider even the things you mentioned as rather mild. I personally felt the reaction in here was a little uncalled for. I mean, it didn't took too long for the hating stuff to come up.
*just checked, you refer to Brunos performance thread, point still stands though
It will always be like this, especially when "fans" like you show that they seem to think in clusters and distinguish between right and wrong fans. By all means, do whatever you like but I am pretty sure, you are intelligent enough to realize, that you are fueling this spiral as much as the people you seemingly question their "fan" status.
You are on here since 9 years and you still get so hung on individuals posting questionable stuff? I mean, a part of me is impressed by that level of determination.
Just fyi, I am ready to retract the "very" but apart from that, I guess we have to agree to disagree on that.
Replace Bruno and we're on to something.Weakest link in the team.
I know he's very productive and has a superb work rate, but he does actually break down a lot of our transitions through really stupid decision making. Still a net positive on us though.
Stupid decisions and some of the strangest techincal inconsistency I've ever seen for a creative player. He'll play the best and worst pass of the match in the same 10 minute spell.
My hot take is that he's actually a bit overrated as a pure passer. He's elite at seeing opportunities for creating goals and can execute those well, but in terms of pure ability in passing the football he's not as good as many think.
The extention was a peculiar choice by the hierarchies for sure.
And therein lies the problem, if you consider extreme hyperbole as very mild criticism, your view on this are of little surprise.
Some of the takes here are just plain funny.
I know a few Sheffield Wednesday fans who are adamant that Barry Bannan should be dropped. To the uninitiated, he's basically a PL-level player turning out for a terribly run club with crap players in every other position. Without him they'd still be in League 1 looking down rather than up.
Maybe it's just natural for some fans to hate the best part of a struggling side? Play well for Man United and your fans will still hate you. What a pitch that must be.
I know a few Sheffield Wednesday fans who are adamant that Barry Bannan should be dropped. To the uninitiated, he's basically a PL-level player turning out for a terribly run club with crap players in every other position. Without him they'd still be in League 1 looking down rather than up.
Maybe it's just natural for some fans to hate the best part of a struggling side? Play well for Man United and your fans will still hate you. What a pitch that must be.
It's strange to see some advocating for benching Bruno when:
1- Bruno is our biggest creator of chances
2- even with Bruno chance creation productivity, we don't create enough chances
3- and our attackers have a terrible finishing rate.
The obvious solution should be to have more creators alongside Bruno, Amad is doing his bit, Zirkzee is soo perhaps due to his style of dropping deep, we need players like Rashford and Mainoo to create chances or have more key passes, and we also need our attackers to finish chances off.
Benching Bruno is not a solution, not a viable one for now at least.
1- Bruno is our biggest creator of chances
2- even with Bruno chance creation productivity, we don't create enough chances
3- and our attackers have a terrible finishing rate.
The obvious solution should be to have more creators alongside Bruno, Amad is doing his bit, Zirkzee is soo perhaps due to his style of dropping deep, we need players like Rashford and Mainoo to create chances or have more key passes, and we also need our attackers to finish chances off.
Benching Bruno is not a solution, not a viable one for now at least.
The underlying numbers suggest we're fine as we are. We create 3.5 big chances per game - more than Man City, who have had easier fixtures. It looks like it will come together.
Try the mental exercise of putting Bruno in that great Real Madrid side. No one would even have this conversation at all. It’s the overall squad quality that needs working with.
Which is good, our issue is we don't have a prolific goal scorer
Nobody has one, Villa aside. Th goal will come.
City don't have a prolific goal scorer?
Agree. Bruno isn't the issue here. The real issue is the lack of real quality teammates. Who could shine with guys like Rashford and Casemiro in the team? I'm honestly surprised that Bruno is still in Manchester and keeps fighting for years for this dead football project.
Not saying it isn't a fact but are there any factual stats to back this up? I don't watch enough of Portugal to know.
Haaland scores that many almost every game on his own
Ok, got it. But out of interest - who made you the barometer for judging what criticism is extreme and what is just fine? Because it sounds suspiciously as if you'd think your opinion would have more substance than that of others...
At some point, people said similar things about Rashford. Or Pogba. "They'd be even better with a better team". Well duh, of course they would, but they do carry a share of the reason the team is what it is today. And that applies to Bruno as well. We have extended with him, whether we like it or not, he'll be here this season and more than likely even longer. We might as well make the best of it - and that means finding a way for him occupy areas where he can play to his strength and limit his involvement in areas he isn't great in. The notion that he alone is holding us back is crazy. Undoubtedly he became somewhat of a symbol of the football stagnation (rightly or wrongly) at United, a posterboy for sounding great but having limited effect. Lets hope, Amad can continue his trend so the full weight in terms of chance creation isn't on Bruno alone. And lets hope the manager starts to sub him when he doesn't have a great game, that should be enough to keep us moving forward in the immediate future. I hope though, that the higher ups are planning for a future without him and make sure, replacements get in place - be that in personnel or adjusted game plans.
Still on this.
Elanga had more assists than Bruno last season in PL. Playing for Forest.
Pereira had equal assists with Bruno. Playing for Fulham.
Both United Reject
All these 'midtable players' had better numbers than Bruno last season ..
Morgan Gibbs- Forest 10
Anthony Gordon - Newcastle United 10
Pascal Groß - Brighton 10
Brennan Johnson - Forest 10
So it is that Forest, Brighton, Fulham have better finishers than United.
Yet how comes, Elanga and Pereira wouldn't hack better assist numbers than Bruno while at United playing in the same league but rack in numbers in another team?
Its simple, how we play is Bruno induced. It's either him or not.
Also in 2022-2023 season.
Bruno had same assist numbers as Eriksen free transfer from Brentford
These two had better numbers.
Morgan Gibbs- Forest/Wolves 9
James Maddison - Leicester City
Perisic, Mbeumbo, Pascal all had same assist numbers with Bruno. 100% poor players compared to Bruno playing in a poor team to United.
As you can see, nothing extraordinary Bruno is doing. It's just us United fans tend to over estimate what our players do... That's why, even, when players move on from United they tend not to get any meaningful club. Look at Lingard, Martial, Varane, De Gea etc. This were players who people were drolling for, yet World Football doesn't rank them that much because no one is ready to take them up.
We are too one dimension till it kills all the creativity of the team. That's why, we can't score 80 goals in a season. Can't win 25 games and above in a season. We will also have sub 30+ goal difference. Years later, after 600m spent, we still have the same same problems we had in 2020-2023 period.
How people don't see this deficiencies has also been the mystery to me.
The simple answer is No.
Hopefully, the sweet new contract won't prevent the Saudi's from going for him next summer.
Hopefully, the sweet new contract won't prevent the Saudi's from going for him next summer.
Now do the same for goals+assists. Then you will see that Bruno ranks highly.
Can’t tell if you mean because he wouldn’t get in the squad therefore there isn’t a conversation to be had or that he would get in and excell.