Is De Gea a bigger Man Utd legend than Peter Schmeichel?

Oranges038 said:
The stats literally show that Schmeichel and VDS faced more shots on average and saved more even with prime top defenders in front of them.

Stands to reason then they are both better shot stoppers than DDG.
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Those stats make zero sense then. It’s not just a cut and dry. Vastly different eras.

Perhaps with overloads in the modern game keepers now face bigger chances more often. Especially against the best club sides. Barcelona were the first truly modern side United faced with VDS and as some pointed out he didn’t do as well in those games.

Strikers may also have improved too hitting the lighter ball closer to goal. Football is a lot more data driven than in even VDS later days here never mind Big Pete’s so attackers have become more efficient. As should be expected.

I’m using the eye test and De Gea’s shot stopping with my own eyes is the best I’ve seen.
 
Son said:
Those stats make zero sense then. It’s not just a cut and dry. Vastly different eras.

Perhaps with overloads in the modern game keepers now face bigger chances more often. Especially against the best club sides. Barcelona were the first truly modern side United faced with VDS and as some pointed out he didn’t do as well in those games.

Strikers may also have improved too hitting the lighter ball closer to goal. Football is a lot more data driven than in even VDS later days here never mind Big Pete’s so attackers have become more efficient. As should be expected.

I’m using the eye test and De Gea’s shot stopping with my own eyes is the best I’ve seen.
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Of course they make zero sense. The 2 guys who faced more shots and made more saves and conceded less goals on average were worse shot stoppers because football is different, attackers are more efficient, balls move faster, pitches are wetter, they played behind better defenders, the grass was longer, the ball was rounder and there's more chances created now.
 
edn33 said:
DDG is the better keeper for me. He has the potential to become the greatest keeper of all time.

Judge him only after he has retired. Hope he stays at United forever.
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At no point DDG was considered best keeper in the world.
He was always behind someone, either be Allison,Neuer,Navas,Buffon,Ter Stegen,Oblak, etc...how is possible that he might become greatest keeper of all time if he was never considered the very best?

On the other hand Schmeichel is considered one of greatest GKs of all time
 
PSV said:
Peter a bit overrated.
De Gea a bit underrated.

Largely due to the teams in front of them.

Peter gets the plaudits because we won stuff, but probably a bit undeservedly so.
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Winning stuff doesn't mean you will be considered a GOAT, there are many GKs who won a lot of stuff out there, and are not considered as good as Peter Schmeichel.
 
It's weird how people will shit on a club legends to try and make their favoured legend out to be better.

De Gea, despite his flaws, was a world class goalie for a good while, and he's been hugely important in keeping us from completely imploding in the post-Ferguson years. He deserved to have a better team in front of him and win more trophies.

See? You can acknowledge his quality and contributions without making up some stuff about how van der Sar only looked good because he had Rio and Vidic in front of him, that him and Schmeichel were worse shotstoppers or whatever.

Whoch order people rank them seens to largely come down to affinity.
 
I'd invert what I think is the broader point some are making that modern football is way faster and better now (which I agree) hence why DDG is underrated and Big Pete's overrated.

IMO a carbon copy of 90s Schmeichel playing today would still be considered a great goalkeeper despite all the advancements. If he were trained the way modern goalkeepers are, he'd easily still be world class. Would DDG be considered world class (not just in shot-stopping and possibly kicking) if he played in the 90s? Possibly - but there would be a good argument that he'd be 1 tier below the likes of Pagliuca, Schmeichel and Kahn because of his glaring flaws. De Gea most certainly wouldn't be considered revolutionary. That honour would go to Gianluigi Buffon, who serves as an interesting thread through the eras.

I also think that when many outfield players/fans evaluate "shot-stopping", they still tend to hone in on diving and reflexes, which DDG was one of the best at. Big Pete for his era not only had that but also amazing proactive positioning. He could anticipate the next move and quickly close down the angles, compared to DDG who tends to drift around his goal line.

Many of Big Pete's saves still hold up by the way. Some of them shots were no weaker than what we see today.
 
No... Schmeichel was consistently world class and remains possibly the best the PL has ever seen. he was certainly the best in the world for a while, which, despite what some here think, DDG has never been. His clean sheets game in 292 games (61%). DDG's in over 400 (45%)... if my maths is right.

to see some here say Peter was overrated is hilarious
 
No. For the very simple reason that DDG is not a character in the way that Schmeichel was.
He is a completely different type of keeper. Good but not a character.
 
Pronewbie said:
I'd invert what I think is the broader point some are making that modern football is way faster and better now (which I agree) hence why DDG is underrated and Big Pete's overrated.

IMO a carbon copy of 90s Schmeichel playing today would still be considered a great goalkeeper despite all the advancements. If he were trained the way modern goalkeepers are, he'd easily still be world class. Would DDG be considered world class (not just in shot-stopping and possibly kicking) if he played in the 90s? Possibly - but there would be a good argument that he'd be 1 tier below the likes of Pagliuca, Schmeichel and Kahn because of his glaring flaws. De Gea most certainly wouldn't be considered revolutionary. That honour would go to Gianluigi Buffon, who serves as an interesting thread through the eras.

I also think that when many outfield players/fans evaluate "shot-stopping", they still tend to hone in on diving and reflexes, which DDG was one of the best at. Big Pete for his era not only had that but also amazing proactive positioning. He could anticipate the next move and quickly close down the angles, compared to DDG who tends to drift around his goal line.

Many of Big Pete's saves still hold up by the way. Some of them shots were no weaker than what we see today.
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The save from Diouf in here for City v Liverpool, is one of his best ever. Bearing in mind he was nearly 40 and still got down and back up like he was half his age.



Also noticeable how Schmeichel rarely put the ball back into the danger area after making a save.

 
PigeonEscobar said:
Unpopular opinions:
David De Gea comfortably saves the Messi goal at Wembley in the 2011 CL final.
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We might as well say taibi saves the Messi goal.
Cos if we're going that route look at the goal ddg conceded Vs Messi (Barca second goal)

 
I didn't get to see much of Schmeichel but I think this discussion is unfair on de gea, his 17/18 performances were worthy of winning a league, but he's not had quality teams in front of him apart from 2 years under fergie, I can guarantee if he'd put in the same longevity that he has but had won 3 or 4 league titles and a CL he'd be held in the same esteem as Schmeichel or van der sar. Not saying he's as good as these players but it's definitely the lack of trophies rather than lack of quality that counts against him
 
Oranges038 said:
Of course they make zero sense. The 2 guys who faced more shots and made more saves and conceded less goals on average were worse shot stoppers because football is different, attackers are more efficient, balls move faster, pitches are wetter, they played behind better defenders, the grass was longer, the ball was rounder and there's more chances created now.
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Football is a bit different to be fair, and the types of shots faced by goalkeepers has changed. Coaching teams have definitely studied xG and similar. It's notable that the amount of long shots taken on by teams has declined. It seems to be a trend across all leagues.

Goalkeepers will/should save a higher percentage of the on-target long-range shots than those from closer in. Mind you, a large proportion of long-range shots will be off target too and won't even need saving.

Football was more open and end-to-end when 4-4-2 was more prevalent so it's changed in that way as well. I don't have stats for that but I'd imagine goalies on top teams faced lots of chances that they wouldn't nowadays.

I'd doubt it's changed enough to make the difference, but it's certainly changed and it's an interesting area of study. I remember a thread asking why there doesn't seem to be as many long-range goals as there once was and I think it partly answers that too.

Anyway, to my eyes Schmeichel was an absolutely fantastic shot-stopper.

Here's some stats for fun, going back to as far as I can easily grab them from when VDS was here compared to last season:

09/10
PL Total shots = 10852
Shots from outside the box = 4880 (44.97% of all shots)
Penalty area shots = 5181 (47.74%)
6 yard box shots = 791 (7.29%)

Saves = 2396
Saves from shots outside the box = 1057 (44.12% of all saves)
Saves from penalty area shots = 1212 (50.58%)
Saves from 6 yard box shots = 127 (5.3%)

Total percentage of shots saved = 22.08%

21/22
PL Total shots = 9747
Shots from outside the box = 3485 (35.75% of all shots)
Penalty area shots = 5475 (56.17%)
6 yard box shots = 787 (8.07%)

Saves = 2224
Saves from shots outside the box = 773 (34.76% of all saves)
Saves from penalty area shots = 1311 (58.95%)
Saves from 6 yard box shots = 140 (6.29%)

Total percentage of shots saved = 22.81%

So we have a very similar percentage of shots being saved now overall but it's slightly up. However, a lower proportion of saves that goalies have to make these days are from long-range efforts, while more are from closer to the goal. Overall shot count is down, but that's just teams not taking on those long-range wasteful efforts that are either easy saves or end up in row Z.
 
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Chipper said:
Football is a bit different to be fair, and the types of shots faced by goalkeepers has changed. Coaching teams have definitely studied xG and similar. It's notable that the amount of long shots taken on by teams has declined. It seems to be a trend across all leagues.

Goalkeepers will/should save a higher percentage of the on-target long-range shots than those from closer in. Mind you, a large proportion of long-range shots will be off target too and won't even need saving.

Football was more open and end-to-end when 4-4-2 was more prevalent so it's changed in that way as well. I don't have stats for that but I'd imagine goalies on top teams faced lots of chances that they wouldn't nowadays.

I'd doubt it's changed enough to make the difference, but it's certainly changed and it's an interesting area of study. I remember a thread asking why there doesn't seem to be as many long-range goals as there once was and I think it partly answers that too.

Anyway, to my eyes Schmeichel was an absolutely fantastic shot-stopper.

Here's some stats for fun, going back to as far as I can easily grab them from when VDS was here compared to last season:

09/10
PL Total shots = 10852
Shots from outside the box = 4880 (44.97% of all shots)
Penalty area shots = 5181 (47.74%)
6 yard box shots = 791 (7.29%)

Saves = 2396
Saves from shots outside the box = 1057 (44.12% of all saves)
Saves from penalty area shots = 1212 (50.58%)
Saves from 6 yard box shots = 127 (5.3%)

Total percentage of shots saved = 22.08%

21/22
PL Total shots = 9747
Shots from outside the box = 3485 (35.75% of all shots)
Penalty area shots = 5475 (56.17%)
6 yard box shots = 787 (8.07%)

Saves = 2224
Saves from shots outside the box = 773 (34.76% of all saves)
Saves from penalty area shots = 1311 (58.95%)
Saves from 6 yard box shots = 140 (6.29%)

Total percentage of shots saved = 22.81%

So we have a very similar percentage of shots being saved now overall but it's slightly up. However, a lower proportion of saves that goalies have to make these days are from long-range efforts, while more are from closer to the goal. Overall shot count is down, but that's just teams not taking on those long-range wasteful efforts that are either easy saves or end up in row Z.
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Cheers it good to see that context.

I don't deny that DDG is a club legend, but I don't believe he's above VDS and Schmeichel in this regard.

I also just can't buy into the idea that DDG is a better keeper or a better shot stopper than either him or Big Pete. Schmeichel was one of the very best of all time in this area.

VDS at Fulham was performing to a very high standard and it went up even more at Utd. He was brilliant at closing down angles and made saves look easier than they were.



 
Pete > Dave for me, but not by that much. I would invite anyone to watch a handful of full matches of Pete as his peak in the late 90s and witness mistakes he made that Dave makes but gets crapped on for.
 
jm99 said:
I didn't get to see much of Schmeichel but I think this discussion is unfair on de gea, his 17/18 performances were worthy of winning a league, but he's not had quality teams in front of him apart from 2 years under fergie, I can guarantee if he'd put in the same longevity that he has but had won 3 or 4 league titles and a CL he'd be held in the same esteem as Schmeichel or van der sar. Not saying he's as good as these players but it's definitely the lack of trophies rather than lack of quality that counts against him
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People seem to forget he was fantastic during our last PL winning season, maybe not RVP level but made team of the year and had some crucial saves as well as being absolutely amazing in the CL tie vs Real Madrid.

Him staying at United made his pockets bigger but it completely destroyed his legacy.
 
Oranges038 said:
The save from Diouf in here for City v Liverpool, is one of his best ever. Bearing in mind he was nearly 40 and still got down and back up like he was half his age.



Also noticeable how Schmeichel rarely put the ball back into the danger area after making a save.

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the last one, from Hutchison is one of the best I've ever seen anywhere. the one against west ham is also remarkable and I remember one for Denmark in the euro final which he had no right to even get near. another thing that puts Schmeichel above DDG is how few howlers he ever made... again I remember one horror in an international but so few for United
 
mitchmouse said:
the last one, from Hutchison is one of the best I've ever seen anywhere. the one against west ham is also remarkable and I remember one for Denmark in the euro final which he had no right to even get near. another thing that puts Schmeichel above DDG is how few howlers he ever made... again I remember one horror in an international but so few for United
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That was against Klinsmann, one of the best saves ever in the Euros. His save against Rapid Vienna is often compared to Gordon Bank's as one of the greatest saves ever in football. I love DDG but Schmeichel has saves that people speak of when discussing greatest saves of all time.
 
AlPistacho said:
De Gea is the best United keeper of all time and has been for some time. He has won/saved us more points than Schmeichel & VDS put together
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Complete and utter rubbish, DDG will NEVER be better than Big Pete, he has more presence in the box, was more vocal than DDG will ever be, VDS is the same.
Big Pete and VDS ad little in the way of weaknesses , both could actually save penalties.
No, I think you are seriously deluded if you think he is better than either, FFS I would have Alex Stepney very close to DDG and he could not even get close to Pete and VDS.
 
AlPistacho said:
De Gea is the best United keeper of all time and has been for some time. He has won/saved us more points than Schmeichel & VDS put together
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Not even close, as good as De Gea is or isn't he's not in the same class as the Great Dane or Dutchman
 
roonster09 said:
Not only those long throws, the way he used to close down the space when he was 1v1 or attacker was about to shoot was unreal.

Wish we had someone like him.
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Actually De Gea does that pretty well but the big Dane just scared the crap out of the striker charging out
 
Newtonius said:
No excuse for the recency bias either you can easily watch games from the 90's on youtube, i mean dude was a 15 stone brick wall yet still had the reflexes to quickly dive down and get back up again hes in the conversation for the greatest keepers of all time nevermind United legend.
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And his handball skills he picked up playing handball in his youth. He was really good in 1v1 situations. I loved Schmeichel in the 90’s, great goalie and great leader. I never liked a goalkeeper as much since him, maybe Van der Sar but it was a shame he joined us so late in his career.
 
AlPistacho said:
VDS and Pete were putting in MOTM performances on a weekly basis over several years?
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They were consistently at world class level for many years, and were often the best players on the pitch so yes. Why would you think that wasn't the case when players are at the level they were?
 
Schmikes had a brilliant throw out to the wing to start counter attacks. Was a potent weapon.

I think they're roughly equal in terms of ability but Schmikes won more including the treble so he'll always be a bigger legend
 
Not a chance. DDG one of the most overrated gk of the last decade. I stand by the fact that after euro 2016 I think he was never the same player. Has returned to form this season a bit but let's not forget he's the highest paid gk in the world so you expect more from him.

In David's defence, Peter was surrounded by much better players. If David can maintain his current form and help us get a few more trophies then he could still surpass Peter.
 
ThehatchetMan said:
Not a chance. DDG one of the most overrated gk of the last decade. I stand by the fact that after euro 2016 I think he was never the same player. Has returned to form this season a bit but let's not forget he's the highest paid gk in the world so you expect more from him.

In David's defence, Peter was surrounded by much better players. If David can maintain his current form and help us get a few more trophies then he could still surpass Peter.
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I'm not sure the players around him or the number of trophies can affect what we see them do though? Schmeichel was clearly better at high balls, commanding the area, aggressiveness at coming off his line, starting counter-attacks with those ludicrous throws. That's not putting De Gea down who has been a top class keeper but for me there's a clear gap between them when watching them play.
 
pauldyson1uk said:
Complete and utter rubbish, DDG will NEVER be better than Big Pete, he has more presence in the box, was more vocal than DDG will ever be, VDS is the same.
Big Pete and VDS ad little in the way of weaknesses , both could actually save penalties.
No, I think you are seriously deluded if you think he is better than either, FFS I would have Alex Stepney very close to DDG and he could not even get close to Pete and VDS.
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Calm down. It’s just an opinion, that I’ve backed up with my reasons. You’ve backed up your opinion for your reasons namely Schmeichel & VDS having more presence and being more vocal. I respect your opinion but disagree as for me the bigger test of a keeper is actually stopping shots going into the goal.
 
Balljy said:
They were consistently at world class level for many years, and were often the best players on the pitch so yes. Why would you think that wasn't the case when players are at the level they were?
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They were playing in a crap defence and making 2-3 world class saves every match for 5 or so years?
 
AlPistacho said:
They were playing in a crap defence and making 2-3 world class saves every match for 5 or so years?
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Why does the defence have any impact on our judgement of them?

They were consistently making world class saves when the defence let them through and that's what we can compare them on. You're making it sound like having worse defence automatically makes the better keeper.
 
Having watched Schmeichel's entire career aswell as De Gea's i am of the opinion that De Gea, whilst brilliant and a great servant to the club, just isn't in the same tier as Schmeichel in terms of ability and what he achieved here.
 
AlPistacho said:
Calm down. It’s just an opinion, that I’ve backed up with my reasons. You’ve backed up your opinion for your reasons namely Schmeichel & VDS having more presence and being more vocal. I respect your opinion but disagree as for me the bigger test of a keeper is actually stopping shots going into the goal.
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My apologies, it does come over a bit aggressive.
We all see players differently.
 
Balljy said:
Why does the defence have any impact on our judgement of them?

They were consistently making world class saves when the defence let them through and that's what we can compare them on. You're making it sound like having worse defence automatically makes the better keeper.
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No. Being regularly tested week in week out and winning your team points with world class saves, for time almost every week, is why I judge de Gea as the better keeper.
 
AlPistacho said:
No. Being regularly tested week in week out and winning your team points with world class saves, for time almost every week, is why I judge de Gea as the better keeper.
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My point stands, I can't see how that make sense personally as you get more shots in worse teams so will inevitably make more saves and we should judge them on the saves they did make. There were seasons where we won by a goal with Schmeichel making save after save to win matches, we weren't a machine and played badly in a loads of matches with the keeper being the difference.

We can judge keepers by watching them and Schmeichel in my opinion is clearly a level ahead even if you're just going off videos. He was intimidating, started counter-attacks all the time, was an all-time great one-on-one, took control of the box and had good reflexes. De Gea is a great keeper, and his use of feet in saves and agility are top class but there's obvious weaknesses with him.
 
Balljy said:
My point stands, I can't see how that make sense personally as you get more shots in worse teams so will inevitably make more saves and we should judge them on the saves they did make. There were seasons where we won by a goal with Schmeichel making save after save to win matches, we weren't a machine and played badly in a loads of matches with the keeper being the difference.

We can judge keepers by watching them and Schmeichel in my opinion is clearly a level ahead even if you're just going off videos. He was intimidating, started counter-attacks all the time, was an all-time great one-on-one, took control of the box and had good reflexes. De Gea is a great keeper, and his use of feet in saves and agility are top class but there's obvious weaknesses with him.
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Definitely he was far superior with the throws to start the attacks and was a commander. But I think a lot of great keepers do well in great teams but if put in a team that’s struggling would start to concede. The best example I can think of is Curtious, was/is viewed very highly, but the minute Chelsea had a wobbly season he was conceding 3-4 on a regular basis. That’s why I rate DDG so highly, and it’s something people have forgotten about him.

Now with our defence on top form, when needs be he stills pulls off world class as you’d expect from a top class keeper.
 
AlPistacho said:
Definitely he was far superior with the throws to start the attacks and was a commander. But I think a lot of great keepers do well in great teams but if put in a team that’s struggling would start to concede. The best example I can think of is Curtious, was/is viewed very highly, but the minute Chelsea had a wobbly season he was conceding 3-4 on a regular basis. That’s why I rate DDG so highly, and it’s something people have forgotten about him.

Now with our defence on top form, when needs be he stills pulls off world class as you’d expect from a top class keeper.
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Yeah, thank god we've literally never had a season where we've regularly conceded 3, 4 or even 5 goals. :wenger:

For the record Courtois conceded 4 twice in four seasons at Chelsea; we did that twice in the space of a couple of weeks twice last season alone.
 
This thread is blasphemy.

Personally, I think Peter is far superior to De Gea in every aspect of the game. When it comes to leadership, distribution, pace, reflexes, 1 v 1, control of the area and of course saving penalties, Peter is better.

Personal preferences aside... Peter won many more trophies than De Gea. Peter was never discarded by his national team because of poor form. BBC named Peter as the best goalkeeper in Premier League history. He is the only goalkeeper to win player of the year in the Premier League. He is also the only goalkeeper in PL history to be named best goalkeeper in the world on multiple occations.

So please. Close this thread.
 
De Gea is a great shot stopper but overall Schmeichel is the best keeper I've ever seen, I'd also have Van der sar ahead of De Gea as well
 
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