Irish Politics

Pogue Mahone said:
I’ve already been told, multiple times, that we have a right wing government. So thanks for doing that again. Although I guess conceding that they’re not actually right wing “in the modern sense” (whatever that means) is at least a slight change in tack.

I was hoping for some evidence of them being right wing though. Because, as I said, all available evidence - in terms of actual government policy - seems to point in the opposite direction. We’re a country of open borders, big government, extremely progressive taxation, free healthcare and education, a liberal approach to LGBTQ issues and a comprehensive social safety net. Are you aware of any specific policies that you think are right or centre? There must be a few, right?

I’m not really seeing the cognitive dissonance in the screenshot either. It’s just more evidence of high earners paying a much bigger chunk of the overall income tax take. There’s a separate issue about the morals of some sectors offering enormous wages compared to others (and the consequences of this in terms of housing etc) but that’s got nothing to do with income tax.
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It's not a change of tack. It's pretty much what I said the last time. They've always been described as centre right but it depends where you think the centre is.

Historically, their policies were always to the right of Labour and Sinn Fein so they were to the right of the Irish political landscape.

I don't think anyone's claiming they're outright right wing or right wing in the sense that you see in other countries across europe. However, neo-liberal economic policy is certainly not a left wing ideal as I think was pointed out by Moses previously.
 
Withnail said:
It's not a change of tack. It's pretty much what I said the last time. They've always been described as centre right but it depends where you think the centre is.

Historically, their policies were always to the right of Labour and Sinn Fein so they were to the right of the Irish political landscape.

I don't think anyone's claiming they're outright right wing or right wing in the sense that you see in other countries across europe. However, neo-liberal economic policy is certainly not a left wing ideal as I think was pointed out by Moses previously.
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Ok, fair enough. It obviously wasn’t you I was discussing this with before. Because I had someone insistently telling me we definitely had a right wing government without ever providing any reasons. So this tax analysis made their claims seem even more far-fetched.

Moses is a Trot. I’m basically a fascist as far as he’s concerned, because I vote for the Green Party.
 
A €335,000 bike shelter in Leinster House.

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A lot of fat, fat envelopes for that. Shower of cnuts.
 
€322,282 lump sum for "construction and installation" with no breakdown.

That seems fine.
 
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You get what you for. And we, as taxpayers, are getting ridden.
 
We got a bike shed installed in the kids school; bigger than that and it cost nowhere near 335k. Disgusting; that would build some much needed houses
 
https://www.rte.ie/news/2024/0922/1471310-childrens-hospital/

"In his letter, Minister Donnelly said that of the 3,000 rooms offered as complete by BAM, "none were completed to the expected, acceptable standard".

He said that the issues arising with the rooms include "incomplete fittings and fixtures such as sinks, taps and showers, incomplete insulation work, grabrails not yet installed, and incomplete vinyl flooring".

"No one would accept these standards in their homes and the NPHDB certainly cannot, and will not, accept inferior standard of completion on the largest health investment in the history of the State," Mr Donnelly said."

Government gave the "largest health investment in the history of the State" to cowboys from Builders from Hell.
 
I was involved in an OPW job two years ago as a sub-contractor. The money they wasted was amazing. They over spec'd everything. It wasn't that the contractors were making loads of money, the main way they wasted money was speccing the most expensive items that were completely unnecessary
 
17Larsson said:
I was involved in an OPW job two years ago as a sub-contractor. The money they wasted was amazing. They over spec'd everything. It wasn't that the contractors were making loads of money, the main way they wasted money was speccing the most expensive items that were completely unnecessary
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One of my wife’s friends from Engineering In Uni messaged on their WhatsApp after the bike shed story broke something to the effect of “We have at least 10 projects worse than that. Can’t wait to be on the news”.
 
I feel like we've recently entered a new era of Celtic Tiger where the government are so flooded with money that they feel it's completely acceptable to waste it away. Look at the RTE bailout and now all this shite. There's just no questioning or fightback on any of these crazy quotes or figures, no accountability.

The problem is unlike the Celtic Tiger, loads of people have no fecking money cause everything's gone so expensive.
 
Massive Spanner said:
I feel like we've recently entered a new era of Celtic Tiger where the government are so flooded with money that they feel it's completely acceptable to waste it away. Look at the RTE bailout and now all this shite. There's just no questioning or fightback on any of these crazy quotes or figures, no accountability.

The problem is unlike the Celtic Tiger, loads of people have no fecking money cause everything's gone so expensive.
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Yeah, spot on. It's kind of infuriating to hear our government talk about our GDP, and how wealthy we are as a country, but the average Irish person doesn't see a cent of that wealth, and many are struggling to get by. Young people leaving in their droves also because of lack of affordable housing or accomodations. The amount of 25-35 year olds still living as home is at a record high. We're creating this illusion that we're this prosperous economy, but not building the infrastructure or services to keep up with the population growth.
 
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17Larsson said:
I was involved in an OPW job two years ago as a sub-contractor. The money they wasted was amazing. They over spec'd everything. It wasn't that the contractors were making loads of money, the main way they wasted money was speccing the most expensive items that were completely unnecessary
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What’s the craic with that? Why do you think they’re so wasteful? Not enough checks on their budget?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
What’s the craic with that? Why do you think they’re so wasteful? Not enough checks on their budget?
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I had a lad from the council up in our estate a few months ago, was trying to put in some new fancy bike lane. It would've meant opening up the road to traffic, losing the only 6 visitor parking spots that are in the estate, and having cars and bikes flying past an area where all the kids in the estate play.

I called him and asked him what the feck sort of logic this was given there's barely ever anyone on bikes in the estate and they can easily use the footpath there because there are no cars anyway and his reply was "well we have to spend the money somehow and I've been tasked with using it on new green projects". Fecking mental, I laughed the head off him, the estate absolutely full of potholes and neglect all over and he's at that shite. Thankfully never heard back again since.

Basically I imagine this shit is absolutely rampant throughout every single government sector in Ireland and the OPW are the ones copping the blame right now cause of that stupid bike shelter.
 
Massive Spanner said:
I had a lad from the council up in our estate a few months ago, was trying to put in some new fancy bike lane. It would've meant opening up the road to traffic, losing the only 6 visitor parking spots that are in the estate, and having cars and bikes flying past an area where all the kids in the estate play.

I called him and asked him what the feck sort of logic this was given there's barely ever anyone on bikes in the estate and they can easily use the footpath there because there are no cars anyway and his reply was "well we have to spend the money somehow and I've been tasked with using it on new green projects". Fecking mental, I laughed the head off him, the estate absolutely full of potholes and neglect all over and he's at that shite. Thankfully never heard back again since.

Basically I imagine this shit is absolutely rampant throughout every single government sector in Ireland and the OPW are the ones copping the blame right now cause of that stupid bike shelter.
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Ok, yeah. Although I am kind of on board with this. We should be throwing money at green projects. We need to be throwing money at green projects. As usual, the problem seems to be a lack of joined up thinking about how to best spend the money.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Ok, yeah. Although I am kind of on board with this. We should be throwing money at green projects. We need to be throwing money at green projects. As usual, the problem seems to be a lack of joined up thinking about how to best spend the money.
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We absolutely should, if they make sense, but clearly they don't know how to do it, which was the point. Believe me a cycle lane in the location I'm talking about would've been sheer lunacy.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
What’s the craic with that? Why do you think they’re so wasteful? Not enough checks on their budget?
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I think they work to a budget rather than having to try to make a profit, so if they're allowed use say 1 million on a project they'll use 1 million.
I'm not exactly sure but I could tell you loads of stories of that one job, totally ridiculous spending on every single aspect of it. If it was a private company that did it, the job would have cost about two thirds less easily
 
17Larsson said:
I think they work to a budget rather than having to try to make a profit, so if they're allowed use say 1 million on a project they'll use 1 million.
I'm not exactly sure but I could tell you loads of stories of that one job, totally ridiculous spending on every single aspect of it. If it was a private company that did it, the job would have cost about two thirds less easily
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And towards the end of the year, they're throwing away money as they don't want their budget cut for the following year, which will happen if they come under budget which is a ludicrous situation.
 
17Larsson said:
I think they work to a budget rather than having to try to make a profit, so if they're allowed use say 1 million on a project they'll use 1 million.
I'm not exactly sure but I could tell you loads of stories of that one job, totally ridiculous spending on every single aspect of it. If it was a private company that did it, the job would have cost about two thirds less easily
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You'd think it might be cheaper to e.g. give them a budget of €900k, hire two extra project manager types and split the money between a larger number of cheaper projects wouldn't you? Some of the projects would presumably even bring in revenue if managed well.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
What’s the craic with that? Why do you think they’re so wasteful? Not enough checks on their budget?
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In large part it’s down to the way they budget. Because of the amount of oversight, they budget very far in advance and they usually seek a larger amount than is absolutely necessary, as going back for a top up is doubly difficult and overspend is a bad word. They then have to do that usual thing of having to spend all of the money because if they don’t, they’ll be given the lesser amount next time. It’s utterly dumb and yet somehow the best system they can come up with.
 
Brophs said:
In large part it’s down to the way they budget. Because of the amount of oversight, they budget very far in advance and they usually seek a larger amount than is absolutely necessary, as going back for a top up is doubly difficult and overspend is a bad word. They then have to do that usual thing of having to spend all of the money because if they don’t, they’ll be given the lesser amount next time. It’s utterly dumb and yet somehow the best system they can come up with.
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I’ve begun to wonder if that whole “spend all our budget in Q4 in case we get less next year” thing might be a big factor in capitalism dying on its arse.
 
I probably worked in the architects office of the OPW that did these two projects. It was 20 years ago so probably doesn't have much relevance to today. It wasn't this bad at the time but its not so hard to see how it got there. Or it didn't seem as bad at least.
There is some unavoidable, reasonable costs involved to be fair to them.
For a start theres a bunch of costs involved with any work on or near Leinster House in terms of security clearance and limiting the movement and access of anyone doing work there. Theres a hefty upfront cost just to get people on the site.
Similarly its a listed building and architecturally very significant (which architects are quite sensitive about), so theres a lot of hoops to jump through, questions to answer and consider and consult with people on. They'd have multiple meetings about putting an outdoor ashtray next to buildings. They'd be sourcing particular materials to fit with the design of the drainpipes or whatever. Its kind of over the top but I think that attention to detail isn't a bad thing in principle.
Rest is much more questionable.
They'd have recent college graduates or people doing a years work experience in the office and these kind of smaller, discreet projects would usually land on their desk. Its the kind of thing that could be started and ended within a couple of years and wouldn't have huge scope dragging them into a thousand areas. I'd say they were guilty of overdesign and over elaboration at times. It would probably be their first big project and its next to or in one of the most important, signficant buildings in their country. They wouldn't put up a basic hut with off the shelf materials - it'll share a shillouhette with the wider building and the lumps of metal you attach your bike too will be specially manufactured by a namibian artist living in wicklow with tiny pictures of michael collins ethed into it.
Even at the time no one really cared about or consider costs. They'd sign shit while talking to someone else without even looking at it. I can easily see how that just keeps rolling into bigger and bigger numbers without anyone questioning it.
 
Loads of spending increases and tax cuts.

Just to make sure the votes are bought in advance for the same bunch of gowls to be elected again next year.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
It’s going to be a pre-election short term popularity contest of a budget. Waste of everyone’s time.

What do I hope for? How about binning the poxy USC, which we were told was a short term thing, over ten fecking years ago! Oh well. A guy can dream…
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Isn't the USC the fairest tax we have, though? Everyone pays into it based on their income level, and it's the only one take takes proper high earners into account.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
How so?
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It's the only tax we have that targets very high earners* with the 8% rate.
  • Less than €12,012: 0.5% USC rate.
  • Income between €12,012 and €25,760: 2% USC rate.
  • Income between €25,760 and €70,044: 4% USC rate.
  • Balance of Income over €70,044: 8% USC rate.
*though with the cost of everything now I'm not even sure if someone earning 70k+ is a very high earner anymore!
 
Massive Spanner said:
It's the only tax we have that targets very high earners* with the 8% rate.
  • Less than €12,012: 0.5% USC rate.
  • Income between €12,012 and €25,760: 2% USC rate.
  • Income between €25,760 and €70,044: 4% USC rate.
  • Balance of Income over €70,044: 8% USC rate.
*though with the cost of everything now I'm not even sure if someone earning 70k+ is a very high earner anymore!
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They’re high earners but they’re nowhere near the really top earners in the country, who can swerve USC just as easily as stuff like PAYE that the rest of us gimps constantly get rinsed by.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
They’re high earners but they’re nowhere near the really top earners in the country, who can swerve USC just as easily as stuff like PAYE that the rest of us gimps constantly get rinsed by.
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The median salary in Ireland is something like 45k, so 70k+ would surely put something in at least the 90th percentile, there's simply no way that shouldn't be considered a very high earner.

Anyway my point still stands, USC is the only thing that targets high earners, the next highest tax we have is at 43k or something.
 
Massive Spanner said:
The median salary in Ireland is something like 45k, so 70k+ would surely put something in at least the 90th percentile, there's simply no way that shouldn't be considered a very high earner.

Anyway my point still stands, USC is the only thing that targets high earners, the next highest tax we have is at 43k or something.
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It’s just an annoying bolt on tax. If we want our progressive taxation to be more progressive then change the bands on PAYE (or capital gains, or whatever) Creating a whole new type of tax out of thin air is a pain in the hole. The USC was supposed to be a short term measure and is lingering around like fart in a lift.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
It’s going to be a pre-election short term popularity contest of a budget. Waste of everyone’s time.

What do I hope for? How about binning the poxy USC, which we were told was a short term thing, over ten fecking years ago! Oh well. A guy can dream…
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You'd need to vote in Sinn Féin for that. Yeah I can't see this being anything other than more short-termism and throwing a pointless few pennies at everyone in the audience.
 
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