Irish Politics

Eyepopper said:
Weren't both families settled and living in houses?

Genuine question, I was under the impression they were. If they were living in camps on the side of the road or something it would make things a bit more understandable.
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I was under the impression that they were living in a camp but it may have been because of the talk of the ones in Greece being in a camp getting mixed up in my head. They were living in a house according to the media, but the fact remains that by their very nature they are a more nomadic people than any others.

I also answered your other point in my last quote.
 
Irwinwastheking said:
My point is that I think it's most likely they swooped in because these people are transient rather than because the HSE is inherently racist. Of course the news of what's happening on Greece may have escalated them into taking action.

The chances are that the Italian family in your scenario would find it harder to disappear into the night as they will have a house/job/belongings that make them less of a flight risk. If it was a caravan dwelling family who would pose just as much of a risk and then they may well have acted the same way.
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I wouldn't say they're inherently racist either but it's a form of racial profiling and an example of pure ingnorance - it's apparently not unheard of for Roma children to be blonde with blue eyes for one thing. The point still stands that a lot more certainty is needed before you can take somebodies child. The little girl taken from Tallaght apparently didn't eat for 3 days she was so upset being taken away from her parent, and would you blame her?

The family in Athlone lived in a house, not sure about the family in Tallaght but they it's just as likely they do.
 
Irwinwastheking said:
Ah come on again pops. Most Irish kids are born and grow up in the same street all there life so their neighbours would know them. Most Irish parents would be able to produce a birth certificate to prove they are the parents.
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I wouldn't agree with any of that. Maybe 20 years ago but not now. I've lived where I am now for 3 years and don't know the neighbours beyond a passing nod, before that I lived in an estate for 6 years where none of the families really mixed, beyond my direct neighbours I didn't know any of them.

It's a unique situation to these people so statements and questions like those you have posted are pretty useless and have no context.
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The only thing unique about the situation is that the family are gypsies. What else is unique about it? That they're a flight risk? We live on an Island, everyone is a flight risk, if you've abducted a child and are about to be caught I doubt you're going to hang around because you've just bought a new flatscreen.

I'll ask a relevant question though. Would you prefer to see the HSE overreact and do something as drastic as this and end up looking silly and having to apologise, or would you prefer them to be overly cautious and do nothing resulting in a serious problem for a child?
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The problem is they do both. Talk to any social worker in the country and ask them how hard it is to get the HSE to act where kids really need to be taken into care. We just had to have a referendum to try to start making it a bit easier.

My big worry now is that the next time something is reported to the HSE they will be overly worried about the media reaction and not do enough in the same way they haven't done enough in countless occasions down the years. The bleeding hearts in the country are clambering over themselves to point out the overt racism towards gypsies don't see the damage that this could do down the line.
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The damage is done, and it has nothing to do with the bleeding hearts, and all to do with the HSE being a shower of fecking idiots.
 
Irwinwastheking said:
I was under the impression that they were living in a camp but it may have been because of the talk of the ones in Greece being in a camp getting mixed up in my head. They were living in a house according to the media, but the fact remains that by their very nature they are a more nomadic people than any others.
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Ah come on Irwin, are you honestly telling me someone who isn't a gypsie is more likely to hang around and be arrested for something as serious as abduction?

Confiscate their passports, force them to sign on at a station twice a day.... that's what would happen in any other case.
 
Eyepopper said:
Ah come on Irwin, are you honestly telling me someone who isn't a gypsie is more likely to hang around and be arrested for something as serious as abduction?

Confiscate their passports, force them to sign on at a station twice a day.... that's what would happen in any other case.
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The main difference with Irish people and most other non Roma gypsies is that they have birth certificates for their kids. Pretty much every child born in the state will have someone who will know them for a long time, a doctor, neighbours, a priest, a teacher. You mightn't know all your neighbours, but someone will do.

These people are known as 'travellers' and whether you accept it or not, they are not more likely to upsticks than others.
 
Irwinwastheking said:
The main difference with Irish people and most other non Roma gypsies is that they have birth certificates for their kids. Pretty much every child born in the state will have someone who will know them for a long time, a doctor, neighbours, a priest, a teacher. You mightn't know all your neighbours, but someone will do.

These people are known as 'travellers' and whether you accept it or not, they are not more likely to upsticks than others.
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The parents in Athlone did provide a birth certificate and a passport.
 
Irwinwastheking said:
The main difference with Irish people and most other non Roma gypsies is that they have birth certificates for their kids. Pretty much every child born in the state will have someone who will know them for a long time, a doctor, neighbours, a priest, a teacher. You mightn't know all your neighbours, but someone will do.

These people are known as 'travellers' and whether you accept it or not, they are not more likely to upsticks than others.
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I don't buy it Irwin, you seem to making this massive assumption that the Irish are great record keepers and will have a birth cert for each of their children in their back pocket, or that the parish priest will vouch for them. The country isn't like that anymore, particularly in urban centres.
 
Keenst said:
The parents in Athlone did provide a birth certificate and a passport.
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I wasn't aware of that. The case in Athlone seems to have been kept much quieter and dealt with quicker. Once they provided adequate documents then the case should have been handled without taking the kids away.

Did the family in Dublin have papers?
 
Eyepopper said:
I don't buy it Irwin, you seem to making this massive assumption that the Irish are great record keepers and will have a birth cert for each of their children in their back pocket, or that the parish priest will vouch for them. The country isn't like that anymore, particularly in urban centres.
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You don't have to be a great record keeper, but if you want child allowance and other such benefits then you will have paperwork for each of your kids.
 
The fact the reporter rang a journalist first instead of the Gardai should have been reason enough for the Gardai and the HSE to react a little more differently instead of going in like a SWAT team and horsing the child out of their parents arms while they were watching TV. There was other and more sensitive ways for dealing with a situation or a report like that. Once again the authorities that are supposed to be looking after things like this in this country have ended up looking like inept clowns.
 
Irwinwastheking said:
I wasn't aware of that. The case in Athlone seems to have been kept much quieter and dealt with quicker. Once they provided adequate documents then the case should have been handled without taking the kids away.

Did the family in Dublin have papers?
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They provided "documents" in Tallaght but the Gardai weren't satisfied with them apparently, not sure what the documents were tbh. DNA tests revealed she was their natural daughter anyway - not even adopted.
 
The Black Pearl said:
The fact the reporter rang a journalist first instead of the Gardai should have been reason enough for the Gardai and the HSE to react a little more differently instead of going in like a SWAT team and horsing the child out of their parents arms while they were watching TV. There was other and more sensitive ways for dealing with a situation or a report like that. Once again the authorities that are supposed to be looking after things like this in this country have ended up looking like inept clowns.
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And the irony is in most other cases, they treat them so sensitively they hardly act at all.

'Eh hello, is that the HSE?'

'It is yes, what?'

'Well I just thought you might need to know there's a child living in our street and they look nothing at all like their parents.'

'..... and?'

'They're gypsies.'

'Joaaaaaaaaan, call the cops we have a code red!, I want police, ARU, choppers, men on horseback!'
 
Irwinwastheking said:
I've answered this point several times already. They most likely deemed them to be a flight risk. You disagree and that's fair enough.
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We live on an Island where you are no more than 2-3 hours of getting on a boat and fecking off, everyone is a flight risk.

Are you seriously saying that if you have 2 families living side by side, lets say for the same amount of time, for arguments sake, one white Irish and one Roma. It's ok to take the Roma child because they're more likely to leave?

I'm pretty sure that's against international law.

You're the one that accused me of being dramatic in suggesting there was a racial element to this.
 
It'd be all well and good if the HSE actually did this when needed i.e. in houses where real neglect or abuse is occurring.
 
Heres ya go Pops...this will cheer you up

Proposed Bill from Luke ‘Ming’ Flanagan would allow restricted home cultivation and personal possession


Independent TD Luke Ming Flanagan at a press conference in Buswells Hotel, Molesworth Street, Dublin, where he claimed decriminalising cannabis could save Ireland hundreds of millions of euro's.


“Ireland is ready for the legalisation of cannabis,” according to Roscommon TD Luke Ming Flanagan, who today published his Cannabis Regulation Bill 2013.

Mr Flanagan estimated that the legalisation of cannabis could generate up to €300 million through tax revenues and the freeing up of resources. However, he stressed this was an estimate and it was not possible to know for sure what savings might be made.

“If cannabis is legalised, we can make a shopping list out of the amount of money which legalising cannabis will save this country,” said the TD.

These savings could, he said, lead to the reversal of the recent Budget cuts including cuts to the bereavement grant, cuts to young people’s social welfare payments and the abolition of the telephone allowance.

The Bill, which is due to be debated in the Dáil on November 5th and 6th, would, if passed:
- regulate cannabis for recreational and medical use
- allow for home cultivation up to a maximum of six cannabis plant
- allow for the personal possession of up to one ounce of cannabis
- allow for the setting up of “Cannabis Social Clubs” which would allow up to 50 club members to cultivate up to 300 plants for not-for-profit use
- set up a “cannabis regulation authority” to regulate the cultivation, sale, labelling, advertising and marketing of cannabis
- see tax revenue from cannabis fund drug addiction services, medical research and juvenile education courses on drugs.
- include a requirement that the Minister for Justice and Minister for Agriculture to examine the feasibility of the safe regulation and controlled use of cannabis.

“This Bill will protect our youth from unscrupulous dealers; it will make it, in my opinion, more difficult for them to get it; and in the same way as if a minor uses alcohol, a minor who uses cannabis will also face similar sanctions such as having to go into treatment,” Mr Flanagan said.
Mr Flanagan also announced the setting up of a new group, Normal Ireland, which aims to “proactively educate the Irish public as to the social, economic and health benefits of legalising cannabis” and to lobby for a change to the law.

The board of the new groups includes Stuart Clark, assistant editor of HotPress; Dr Garrett McGovern, a GP specialising in alcohol and substance abuse and Dr Cathal ÓSúiliobháin, a GP working with addiction.
 
Keenst said:
It'd be all well and good if the HSE actually did this when needed i.e. in houses where real neglect or abuse is occurring.
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Yep, their inability to act in genuine cases is a disgrace in and of itself, maybe social workers need to start putting 'Roma' down as nationality for all kids under threat, they'd be out of there quick sharp in less than 24 hours.
 
Eyepopper said:
We live on an Island where you are no more than 2-3 hours of getting on a boat and fecking off, everyone is a flight risk.

Are you seriously saying that if you have 2 families living side by side, lets say for the same amount of time, for arguments sake, one white Irish and one Roma. It's ok to take the Roma child because they're more likely to leave?

I'm pretty sure that's against international law.

You're the one that accused me of being dramatic in suggesting there was a racial element to this.
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I'm pretty sure circumstance is always taken into account when looking at things like this and it wouldn't be illegal. Surely it's similar to a judge determining of someone goes on bail or not.

Also, Ming is great again now. This is what the people of Roscommon wanted when they elected him.
 
Decotron said:
Heres ya go Pops...this will cheer you up

Proposed Bill from Luke ‘Ming’ Flanagan would allow restricted home cultivation and personal possession


Independent TD Luke Ming Flanagan at a press conference in Buswells Hotel, Molesworth Street, Dublin, where he claimed decriminalising cannabis could save Ireland hundreds of millions of euro's.


“Ireland is ready for the legalisation of cannabis,” according to Roscommon TD Luke Ming Flanagan, who today published his Cannabis Regulation Bill 2013.

Mr Flanagan estimated that the legalisation of cannabis could generate up to €300 million through tax revenues and the freeing up of resources. However, he stressed this was an estimate and it was not possible to know for sure what savings might be made.

“If cannabis is legalised, we can make a shopping list out of the amount of money which legalising cannabis will save this country,” said the TD.

These savings could, he said, lead to the reversal of the recent Budget cuts including cuts to the bereavement grant, cuts to young people’s social welfare payments and the abolition of the telephone allowance.

The Bill, which is due to be debated in the Dáil on November 5th and 6th, would, if passed:
- regulate cannabis for recreational and medical use
- allow for home cultivation up to a maximum of six cannabis plant
- allow for the personal possession of up to one ounce of cannabis
- allow for the setting up of “Cannabis Social Clubs” which would allow up to 50 club members to cultivate up to 300 plants for not-for-profit use
- set up a “cannabis regulation authority” to regulate the cultivation, sale, labelling, advertising and marketing of cannabis
- see tax revenue from cannabis fund drug addiction services, medical research and juvenile education courses on drugs.
- include a requirement that the Minister for Justice and Minister for Agriculture to examine the feasibility of the safe regulation and controlled use of cannabis.

“This Bill will protect our youth from unscrupulous dealers; it will make it, in my opinion, more difficult for them to get it; and in the same way as if a minor uses alcohol, a minor who uses cannabis will also face similar sanctions such as having to go into treatment,” Mr Flanagan said.
Mr Flanagan also announced the setting up of a new group, Normal Ireland, which aims to “proactively educate the Irish public as to the social, economic and health benefits of legalising cannabis” and to lobby for a change to the law.

The board of the new groups includes Stuart Clark, assistant editor of HotPress; Dr Garrett McGovern, a GP specialising in alcohol and substance abuse and Dr Cathal ÓSúiliobháin, a GP working with addiction.
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Makes perfect sense but then Ming lobs in the bullshit populist line about the amount of money it would generate and reversing recent budget cuts, a totally fecking idiotic thing to say and it hands a massive big stick to all the other parties to beat him with.

Initially at least, the revenue generated, and probably more, would need to go into education and addiction treatment (I see Ming mentions this as a footnote).

Unfortunately it will be laughed out of the Dail, both because of the bollocks financial argument and because it's being tabled by a guy who will easily be painted as a self interested stoner.
 
Decotron said:
Heres ya go Pops...this will cheer you up

Proposed Bill from Luke ‘Ming’ Flanagan would allow restricted home cultivation and personal possession


Independent TD Luke Ming Flanagan at a press conference in Buswells Hotel, Molesworth Street, Dublin, where he claimed decriminalising cannabis could save Ireland hundreds of millions of euro's.


“Ireland is ready for the legalisation of cannabis,” according to Roscommon TD Luke Ming Flanagan, who today published his Cannabis Regulation Bill 2013.

Mr Flanagan estimated that the legalisation of cannabis could generate up to €300 million through tax revenues and the freeing up of resources. However, he stressed this was an estimate and it was not possible to know for sure what savings might be made.

“If cannabis is legalised, we can make a shopping list out of the amount of money which legalising cannabis will save this country,” said the TD.

These savings could, he said, lead to the reversal of the recent Budget cuts including cuts to the bereavement grant, cuts to young people’s social welfare payments and the abolition of the telephone allowance.

The Bill, which is due to be debated in the Dáil on November 5th and 6th, would, if passed:
- regulate cannabis for recreational and medical use
- allow for home cultivation up to a maximum of six cannabis plant
- allow for the personal possession of up to one ounce of cannabis
- allow for the setting up of “Cannabis Social Clubs” which would allow up to 50 club members to cultivate up to 300 plants for not-for-profit use
- set up a “cannabis regulation authority” to regulate the cultivation, sale, labelling, advertising and marketing of cannabis
- see tax revenue from cannabis fund drug addiction services, medical research and juvenile education courses on drugs.
- include a requirement that the Minister for Justice and Minister for Agriculture to examine the feasibility of the safe regulation and controlled use of cannabis.

“This Bill will protect our youth from unscrupulous dealers; it will make it, in my opinion, more difficult for them to get it; and in the same way as if a minor uses alcohol, a minor who uses cannabis will also face similar sanctions such as having to go into treatment,” Mr Flanagan said.
Mr Flanagan also announced the setting up of a new group, Normal Ireland, which aims to “proactively educate the Irish public as to the social, economic and health benefits of legalising cannabis” and to lobby for a change to the law.

The board of the new groups includes Stuart Clark, assistant editor of HotPress; Dr Garrett McGovern, a GP specialising in alcohol and substance abuse and Dr Cathal ÓSúiliobháin, a GP working with addiction.
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There's a lot of merit in this. Will the TD's laugh like the arsehole hyenas they are or will they take it seriously?
 
Holy smokes, the comments section of the Indo is a but righty.

paddy a brennan
• [COLOR=rgba(30, 55, 70, 0.4)]2 hours agohttp://www.independent.ie/irish-new...00m-annually-29697190.html#comment-1095109821[/COLOR]
what a gobshite,he wants to legalize drugs to suit himself and his druggie mates and
use's the excuse the money saved could go to help the most vulnerable in society,where does he think the money to treat him and his druggie mates will come from.


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Irwinwastheking said:
I'm pretty sure circumstance is always taken into account when looking at things like this and it wouldn't be illegal. Surely it's similar to a judge determining of someone goes on bail or not.
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You didn't answer the question 'ok to take the Roma child but not the irish one'?

And yes, circumstance is always assessed, some of the circumstances I've seen assessed that didn't result in kids being taken into immediate care are kids who are barely fed, not cared for, kids of addicts and alcoholics, of people with a history of abuse. Yet two, healthy and seemingly happy kids were taken from their families straight away because they didn't look like their parents.

The HSE should be hung out to dry.
 
Eyepopper said:
You didn't answer the question 'ok to take the Roma child but not the irish one'?

And yes, circumstance is always assessed, some of the circumstances I've seen assessed that didn't result in kids being taken into immediate care are kids who are barely fed, not cared for, kids of addicts and alcoholics, of people with a history of abuse. Yet two, healthy and seemingly happy kids were taken from their families straight away because they didn't look like their parents.

The HSE should be hung out to dry.
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Again, I think I've answered it several times. It's not cut and dry, Irish vs Roma, settled vs traveller. If they judged that the Irish family were a flight risk then no it wouldn't be OK to just take the Roma child and not the Irish child.

This is kinda like your posting in the McCann thread. Things are mutually exclusive of each other.
 
Eyepopper said:
Unfortunately it will be laughed out of the Dail, both because of the bollocks financial argument and because it's being tabled by a guy who will easily be painted as a self interested stoner.
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Irwinwastheking said:
Holy smokes, the comments section of the Indo is a but righty.
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And there you go, that will essentially form half the against argument, the other half will be equally divided between the 'gateway' drug argument and the 'it will lead to more people smoking cannabis' argument.

I suppose you have to say fair dues to Ming for putting it on the agenda but on the face of it he seems to be focusing on the wrong arguments.

IMO the case for legalising weed should focus on reducing crime and usage amongst under 18's, (I'd hope he at least addresses these in his case) there's much more solid evidence to support both, and put serious doubt over the gateway and increased usage arguments. The financial argument wont stand up, simply because for legalisation to really work in Ireland a huge amount of resources would have to go into areas like education and healthcare as well as improving social conditions.

The best argument in my opinion is cost neutrality over the mid term while reducing crime, problem use and use by minors.

"We'll make a load of cash" just sounds like a stoners argument. Granted I haven't actually read his proposal so he more than likely addresses everything I've mentioned.
 
Irwinwastheking said:
Again, I think I've answered it several times. It's not cut and dry, Irish vs Roma, settled vs traveller. If they judged that the Irish family were a flight risk then no it wouldn't be OK to just take the Roma child and not the Irish child.

This is kinda like your posting in the McCann thread. Things are mutually exclusive of each other.
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The point is you can't base whose a greater flight risk solely on whether they're Irish or not.

And besides even if you can, there are other means to deal with it, the means that are used where Irish parents ARE deemed to be flight risks.

It seems pretty clear to me that they saw the Greek case and totally jumped the gun.
 
Ming aint the man to convince the mainsteam. Fact and figures from the Garda about the cost and levels of nonsense they have to go through when charging someone over a very nominal amount.

Its got to the stage now where some Gardai will just let people off if they arent arseholes about it....
 
Eyepopper said:
And there you go, that will essentially form half the against argument, the other half will be equally divided between the 'gateway' drug argument and the 'it will lead to more people smoking cannabis' argument.

I suppose you have to say fair dues to Ming for putting it on the agenda but on the face of it he seems to be focusing on the wrong arguments.

IMO the case for legalising weed should focus on reducing crime and usage amongst under 18's, (I'd hope he at least addresses these in his case) there's much more solid evidence to support both, and put serious doubt over the gateway and increased usage arguments. The financial argument wont stand up, simply because for legalisation to really work in Ireland a huge amount of resources would have to go into areas like education and healthcare as well as improving social conditions.

The best argument in my opinion is cost neutrality over the mid term while reducing crime, problem use and use by minors.

"We'll make a load of cash" just sounds like a stoners argument. Granted I haven't actually read his proposal so he more than likely addresses everything I've mentioned.
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I can't see how he can argue for an increase in revenue unless he's going to allow the sale and taxation of it in shops and that's a landmine that not even Ming will walk into yet. It should save a fair whack of Garda resources and the odd court session though.
 
Irwinwastheking said:
I can't see how he can argue for an increase in revenue unless he's going to allow the sale and taxation of it in shops and that's a landmine that not even Ming will walk into yet. It should save a fair whack of Garda resources and the odd court session though.
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It would save a huge amount of resources for the Gardai and courts, and thats actually a far better arguement that how much tax it will generate. I doubt the savings in resources will be included in his financial forecast anyway.

The taxation argument is valid btw, other countries have seen massive tax revenues from doing it, not to mention indirect tax through associated jobs and then there's the increase in vat from a massive spike in sales of crisps.

From what I've read on it I just don't see it as a financial argument, obviously there are financial aspects to it but there are other benefits that are far more concrete.

I don't really hold Ming in very high regard but knows his onions on the subject and he does make sense when I've heard him talk about it before so I'll surprised if he goes at it from this angle. If he does it seems to me that he's preaching to his audience, maybe he thinks 'money' is the only thing people will listen to, he's probably right, unfortunately its the weakest argument to suggest legalisation.
 
Decriminalising people for growing/smoking a bit of weed is the best argument. Prohibition for this type of drug is stupid anyway.
 
Anyone watch The Disappeared on RTE last night? Gerry Adams is some piece of work.
 
It was a despicable act. They say this woman's only 'crime' was covering the body of a wounded soldier and this was the treatment dealt out to her. As bad and worse an act as anything the loyalist paramilitaries ever perpetrated on the nationalist community and on an individual person. It takes a sick man to order this and some sick boys to carry it out, although likely enough they were lied to. I'll have to have a look at this.

Was it prime time?
 
Irwhine wow said:
It was a despicable act. They say this woman's only 'crime' was covering the body of a wounded soldier and this was the treatment dealt out to her. As bad and worse an act as anything the loyalist paramilitaries ever perpetrated on the nationalist community and on an individual person. It takes a sick man to order this and some sick boys to carry it out, although likely enough they were lied to. I'll have to have a look at this.

Was it prime time?
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It was standalone documentary. Think it's airing on BBC4 again tonight. Well worth watching for the shameless denials from Adams alone.
 
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