A more organised club would perhaps have set something in place to find a long term replacement anticipating his inevitable decline, and phase him out, I like Shaw but his position requires elite levels of athleticism and we need consistent starters, as we are currently witnessing a defence with a revolving door of players equals carnage. Maybe Malacia was intended to replace Shaw but his injuries and brief appearances suggest he's not stepping up anytime soon.
Very good comment.
I totally agree. You know an injury is never too long away with him sadly. Or bring him a replacement and make Shaw the backup.
I’ve provided two studies.
He has been here since the LVG days so I’d imagine he has a big influence in the dressing room.
Mo Gods, Mo success
You don't need to know and neither do opposition teams, if they know player X is going to be out they can plan based on that, if said player might be available then they can't
No I’m not talking about 50/50’s a few days before a match day. I’m talking, United saying a player is going to be out for 3 weeks and then they’re out for 6 months type of thing.
Ill start by saying im no medical expert and I haven’t researched anything into this but Just to begin with,I’ve provided two studies.
The first clearly demonstrating, and I quote:
“Skeletal muscle can be affected, leading to fatigue, lower mobility, weakness, and poor physical performance.” It also states “Current evidence suggests that long COVID negatively impacts body composition and muscle function”
So a link between covid and musculoskeletal symptoms exists. Yes, this is long covid, but it is the same virus and it is impacting skeletal muscle. What is far fetched here?
The second study specifically states:
“This study reported a five times higher risk of developing a muscle strain after a SARS-CoV-2 infection in elite male football players.”
However, yes, the study has limitations. As it states itself, “it is possible that short-term detraining effects due to quarantine” contribute to the results.
But, as also stated, it is possible that the “potentially pathological effects of the SARS-CoV-2 infection are associated with a higher risk of muscle strain injury.”
Hence it could be the quarantine impact, or it could be the virus. Why is it far fetched to explore either option, specifically the pathological impact?
All I’ve done is relay scientific studies and I’m somehow making 2+2=400? It seems more like you’re making 2+2=0.
Forgetting Covid specifically, it’s common knowledge that many viruses can cause Myositis during, and for some time after, infection.
In myositis, inflammation damages the fibres of a muscle. This causes muscles to be weak by interfering with the ability of the muscles to contract. See link below.
Harvard Health: Myositis
“Myositis sometimes occurs as part of a systemic (whole body) infection, especially a viral infection. It is especially common among people who have the flu (influenza).” I’m struggling to see the far fetched aspect of this hypothesis?
This why you shouldn’t partake in resistance training whilst suffering with a viral infection. Risk of injury goes up. That’s a fact.
Since influenza causes Myositis, it stands to reason that Covid could, as well as other pathogens. Nobody is trying to suggest that covid has some kind of special muscle corroding or dissolving effect, like Pogue is trying to say I’m claiming. It’s simply inflammation.
Covid is far more prevalent than influenza right now (see below as an example, using LA data here as can’t access local data). So people are likely to continue to be exposed. Anecdotally, I know people who’ve had it at least twice already (some 5+), including myself. People are catching it more often than flu at the moment. I’ve had flu once in my 34 years of life, and covid twice in 14 months. But it doesn’t even really matter whether it’s flu or covid, Myositis is entirely possible.
If footballers (men and women) are playing during and/or straight after infection, then they are surely at risk of Myositis? The same goes for tennis players, NFL players, baseball players etc. Which could explain the injuries (not saying it definitely does). Or are you dismissing the potential here?
As for bloated schedules being the reason, tennis has had no such thing and have had no kind of catch up since the pandemic. And WSL only plays 22 games per season compared to our 38. Spurs have a huge injury crisis and have had no European football this season. We also now have five substitutions instead of three which reduces the risk of injury further.
I’m saying it could well be related to Covid, but of course, it may well not be. I’d say the above gives reason to explore this further though, rather than dismiss it completely and assume it’s something else. The thing is, covid is a constant across all sports. More games/bloated schedules/playing catch up isn’t a constant across all sports, as explained above.
. That cannot be true. Like it just cant. You pretty much spend the first 15-16 years of your life having flu multiple times a year due to how schools/children/flus work. Did you like avoid kids your whole life? Hell even in your adult life whilst you’d be ill a lot less you will catch things unless you literally never leave the house.Multi-faith and diverse. So LGBT conservative Christian??
Log Cabin Republicans would never be that altruistic.
I believe you are not really allowed state those things these days.
Ill start by saying im no medical expert and I haven’t researched anything into this but Just to begin with,
I find it basically unbelievable that you would have had one flu in 34 years
But real flu? The kind that makes you feel like death might be a preferable option? I've genuinely never met anyone who gets that on a regular basis.Miked "99"I have no opinion on the wider argument going on here, but the bolded part about the flu - seriously? I've had it once in my life, way back in 1982. Even now I remember how terrible it was. I've never felt so ill before or since.
You always get these people who claim they have the flu every time they have a cold
Oh ok fair enough, you mean like death bed flu fluI have no opinion on the wider argument going on here, but the bolded part about the flu - seriously? I've had it once in my life, way back in 1982. Even now I remember how terrible it was. I've never felt so ill before or since.
You always get these people who claim they have the flu every time they have a cold
Technicalities…I mean to be fair, how many times I’ve personally had flu is of little relevance here and was one sentence out of almost twenty paragraphsIll start by saying im no medical expert and I haven’t researched anything into this but Just to begin with,
I find it basically unbelievable that you would have had one flu in 34 years
In relation to myositisis I see what you’re saying but surely just by the fact it can happen with different kinds of viral infections tells you its inconclusive to put it down to covid. Also surely the severity would also play a part. Like covid itself has very different severity levels.
Also its saying ‘long covid’ impacts body composition and muscle function. How do we know these players have long covid. And why are they not showing any other symptoms of long covid? Surely if its long covid with symptoms of muscle pain it would be a problem consistently and these players should be in continuous muscle pain? The fact the phrase “it is possible” kind of makes me think its all a bit speculative to be honest.
. We’re talking about infections population wide. My personal experience wasn’t supposed to be the takeaway from the discussion on covid and injuries.Glenn Hoddle to come in
Most people have never had a proper dose of flu, trust me if you had you would definitely know, I've had it once and I was in my 20's at the time, it took a week in bed, another week to be able to function at a reasonable level and several months to get over it fullyIll start by saying im no medical expert and I haven’t researched anything into this but Just to begin with,
I find it basically unbelievable that you would have had one flu in 34 years
In relation to myositisis I see what you’re saying but surely just by the fact it can happen with different kinds of viral infections tells you its inconclusive to put it down to covid. Also surely the severity would also play a part. Like covid itself has very different severity levels.
Also its saying ‘long covid’ impacts body composition and muscle function. How do we know these players have long covid. And why are they not showing any other symptoms of long covid? Surely if its long covid with symptoms of muscle pain it would be a problem consistently and these players should be in continuous muscle pain? The fact the phrase “it is possible” kind of makes me think its all a bit speculative to be honest.
So many Injuries happening because lads are paying for their sins in previous life?
Gotta be honest, you’re barking up the wrong tree with all that spiel.I mean to be fair, how many times I’ve personally had flu is of little relevance here and was one sentence out of almost twenty paragraphs
But if you do actually want to look up the stats, you’ll find adults tend to average 1-2 flu infections per decade. That’s an average though, so some adults have less than that, so perhaps once in 2-3 decades. Some would have more. I may well have had flu more during childhood but I would have said I had one very pronounced flu like illness when I was in year 8, and the other illnesses I had were just colds/RSV etc. It’s entirely possible that some of what I felt were colds, were indeed flu. I can’t prove it either way unfortunately. But the facts remain, adults average 1-2 per decade.
Statistically speaking, children average one flu infection every two years, again, some more and some less. So your claim of most people getting flu multiple times per year for 15-16 years is statistically improbable. If you spent as much of your childhood as sick as you claim, then you must have had a rotten time. Personally, I was rarely off school, if ever. Same with work. I’ve not had anything but covid (2x) since my last cold in 2016, which I remember because I was on holiday in New York and it was a very mild illness.
But I’m one person out of 8 billion. And I’ve clearly been very lucky compared to you. What either you or I experience on an individual level cannot be extrapolated to population level anyway, so it is a moot point. It doesn’t change the facts on Covid being rife at the moment and people are seemingly being infected more often than previously seen with influenza. If you can provide data demonstrating the contrary, then please feel free and I’ll retract this.
In terms of long covid, how do you know what symptoms individual players may or may not be suffering with? Have you asked them? Long covid is a myriad of symptoms and manifests in very different ways. What it is in one person, can be completely different to what it is in someone else. There isn’t a claim that players have LC anyway, just that there could be a link between infections causing myositis/muscle inflammation.
Footballers are extremely active individuals who are at constant risk of injury anyway. If there is even some slight inflammation in their muscle tissue, the risk of injury is surely increased? Especially in those muscles most frequently injured like the hams, groin and calves.
Different viral infections causing myositis doesn’t mean it can’t be put down to covid when covid is the virus which is most prevalent at the moment. If influenza, or another pathogen, was as prevalent as covid is right now, then the argument could be made that those would be contributing to the injury crisis. But as it stands, the data shows covid as the most established pathogen, which is why it is covid being spoken about in this discussion, and not another virus. For example, if we had the same levels of RSV as we do covid now, along with this injury crisis across many sports, it would be fair to suggest that RSV could be a contributing factor (via myositis etc). Would it not?
All I’m saying is that it is worth exploring and is entirely possible. I can acknowledge that it may well not be the reason. But it seems you and Pogue, amongst others, are saying it is absolutely impossible. But I believe that would be scientifically illiterate to claim this, considering the circumstances and evidence we are faced with.
What I would ask is what is motivating you to be pushing back on this hypothesis to the point where you can’t possibly entertain it? (there is absolutely no claim here that this is 100% the cause by the way). Why are you wanting to be so adamant it can’t possibly be so? That’s the part I don’t understand. Does a discussion around the virus trigger you in some way for some reason (maybe a bad experience of lockdowns)? To counter my argument with a claim as bold as “you spend 15-16 years getting flu multiple times per year” suggests you’re simply arguing for the sake of it. Let’s be honest, a suggestion of 32 flu infections in your first 16 years of life is utterly preposterous.
Regardless of everything discussed, it boils down to me saying that I think there could well be a link between numerous covid infections, myositis and muscular injuries in athletes. Proper research would need to be undertaken, and then a conclusion can be made. But I’m not currently a research scientist, nor do I have the funding available to conduct such a study.
So yes, at the moment, it is speculation, as you say. But every single cause of this injury crisis discussed in this thread is speculation is it not? Until then, I don’t think it’s possible to conclude either way. Yet yourself, Pogue, and others seem to think it is.
Just an edit to add to this: It blows my mind that 3.5 years into a pandemic (with a new virus circulating amongst the global population), that any suggestion it could be related to muscular inflammation/injury during crises in numerous disciplines of sport happening simultaneously is so damned controversial.
Before anyone throws the WHO emergency line at me to claim the pandemic is no more, I’ll quote it for you, “While the international public health emergency may have ended, the pandemic certainly has not”.
I was awaiting the inevitable response claiming it’s all one big coincidence. Rather than claiming the science is “sloppy as hell”, would you care to explain why it is so?
Lockdowns to blame 3.5 years ago is it then? Football continued as usual, as you well know. As did most other sports. Just behind closed doors. And there’s far more studies than the two I linked, but I’m not sure spamming studies is beneficial. You’ll just come back and say “no it can’t be covid, it’s just a cold”. As you’ve done multiple times in the past when this subject has popped up.
In fact, it only takes a quick search for the word “Covid” under your username, and you’ve got quite the posting history on the subject. Borderline obsessive, considering this is a football forum. Always the same “influenza is more dangerous, vaccines for kids are evil etc, why bother testing anymore, live your life”.
I’m more than happy for you to challenge the science/claims around Covid and present you with data/evidence to prove it either right or wrong. Something which is severely lacking in your entire positing history on covid, is evidence. It’s never provided, shockingly
You also know full well professional athletes do not test for covid anymore. It is not a requirement, and is in fact discouraged. Plenty of players have missed games recently citing “illness”, they just never specify what it is. Some may be covid, it may not be. But they certainly aren’t avoiding infection since they’re mixing as usual, just as we all are. Or are you going to claim covid isn’t infecting anyone anymore? It is literally impossible to avoid Covid now unless you isolate yourself away completely from human life/mask etc. Footballers certainly aren’t doing that.
But seeing as I actually bothered to link some scientific research which did highlight a heightened risk of injury after infection, would you care to provide some evidence/science to the contrary? More than happy to see those and discuss. I’m also happy to link even more studies showing the musculoskeletal impacts of covid.
And you cite the World Cup. The women’s game didn’t have the winter World Cup yet their injuries are as bad. Nor did the NFL, MLB, or tennis. But you conveniently skipped past those injury crises. You also cited a congested fixture schedule, but tennis certainly hasn’t had one. Nor has the NFL.
Do you not play football yourself? I do, and injuries even amongst the amateur leagues are aplenty. What’s your specific reason for injury crises in the lower leagues? Middlesbrough are having a terrible time with injuries at the moment.
So just to clarify, you genuinely believe it’s just one big massive coincidence? I’m saying it could potentially be coincidental, albeit unlikely, but I don’t think you or I could say beyond reasonable doubt. So I find it bizarre that you completely dismiss the notion.
What will the excuse be when the situation is even worse next season? And is for the other sports too? And then even worse the season after that? Or will it all just resolve itself and cease to be a problem?
Probably best to not even discuss this topic, and just let’s wait and see what happens. Hopefully it’s got absolutely nothing to do with the ongoing pandemic and injuries won’t continue to worsen, and people won’t keep getting sick multiple times per year. Let’s reassess Christmas 2024.
As someone who has worked in the Medical publishing world for 25+ years on some of the worlds leading medical journals you need to look at the status of the publication it's being published in, a study consisting of 84 subjects isn't anywhere near enough to be taken seriously results wise by and serious medical journal, it might be an interesting starting point that could start a disussion or kickstart a serious study, but nothing more than that.
