India v Australia, Tests and ODI's

Shite debate, Red Sea. Fact remains, he can't do it in India on pitches that suit him.

And never did I imply that he's not the best spinner in the world.

Altho come to think of it, he's not.
 
vijay said:
Eh?.. Ok Leeds is a seaming wicket. How many times has England beaten Australia from 1989 to till date.

(Austarlia never produced tearaway fast bowler after Lillie and Thommo. In the 80's it was McDermott and Ried and now its McGrath. Gillespie and Lee are late additions.)
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What's that got to with anything? Australia have been head and shoulders above anyone over the past decade.

All pitches in England tend to seam, which is why English batsmen are comfortable at playing on seaming wickets. And generally don't get themselves out playing the ball that seams away, unlike batsmen of the sub-continent.

Same goes for Australia. They have the fastest pitches.........and play pace bowling better than any team in the world.
 
giggzy said:
Shite debate, Red Sea. Fact remains, he can't do it in India on pitches that suit him.

And never did I imply that he's not the best spinner in the world.

Altho come to think of it, he's not.
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Dont forget to log in with a different name and say what a great poster you are!!!
:lol:
 
giggzy said:
I'm about to start a topic in the United forum.....

And will call anyone an out of town plastic fan, who I don't argee with!!

:mad:
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You were probably the same poster claiming to be from Manchester :lol:
 
giggzy said:
I will, as....

RedSeaIsAnAmazingPosterWhoCanDebateInUnitedForumWithoutCallingOthersPlasticFansWhenTheyHaveaDifferentView.
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Does that make sense to you? How old are you?
 
Yes it does.

I'll write it out again...

I'll log in as:

Red Sea Is An Amazing Poster Who Can Debate in The United Forum, Without Calling Other Posters, Plastic Fans, When They Have a Different Point of View.

Plastic bastards :mad:
 
Fact- Indian batsmen are the best players of spin in the world.
Aceept it!
I am even ready to debate this top 6 is probably best in the world but the fact that they play spinners the best is not debatable.

Shane warne has toured India 3 times.
On first tour: Tendulkar balsted him , at the end of tour he even admitted he had nightmares of sachin hitting him for six.
ON SECOND : He started out well, if I remembber he took 4 or 5 wickets in the 1st test match. But then for the rest of the series he was again hit to all corners of the park.
This one: His perfomance has been poor so far, yes he did pick up the 6 wicket haul but still if you actually watched the match( which I don think you did) , you would know where I am coming from. He is afraid to toss the ball against the indian batsmen and is bowling a lot flatter and quicker.
That injury thing is non sense, I am a keen follower of cricket,And I assure you on all 3 occasions he was perfectly fit.

As far as his record at home goes, it is average nothing special, nothing you would expect the best to produce.

I am arguing he is great bowler but he is not the best spinner of all time for sure.
I am gonna say this for the last time: He has to over manouver his toughest and best opponents , in order to be proclaimed the best.
 
Hey Giggzy any time you want to give it out face to face, give us a shout at Phil Martin's boxing gym. I'll even lend you the gloves its in Moss Side so you shouldn't have any probs finding it.
 
crappycraperson said:
Fact- Indian batsmen are the best players of spin in the world.
Aceept it!
I am even ready to debate this top 6 is probably best in the world but the fact that they play spinners the best is not debatable.

Shane warne has toured India 3 times.
On first tour: Tendulkar balsted him , at the end of tour he even admitted he had nightmares of sachin hitting him for six.
ON SECOND : He started out well, if I remembber he took 4 or 5 wickets in the 1st test match. But then for the rest of the series he was again hit to all corners of the park.
This one: His perfomance has been poor so far, yes he did pick up the 6 wicket haul but still if you actually watched the match( which I don think you did) , you would know where I am coming from. He is afraid to toss the ball against the indian batsmen and is bowling a lot flatter and quicker.
That injury thing is non sense, I am a keen follower of cricket,And I assure you on all 3 occasions he was perfectly fit.

As far as his record at home goes, it is average nothing special, nothing you would expect the best to produce.

I am arguing he is great bowler but he is not the best spinner of all time for sure.
I am gonna say this for the last time: He has to over manouver his toughest and best opponents , in order to be proclaimed the best.
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Ok then lets debate.

You say he has gone to India 3 times have you got the statistics for each season?

And who are you arguing is better than Warne?
 
Macgill:

Bowling Average by Opponent

BAN

12.88 (4)

ENG

24.72 (12)

SA

25.67 (4)

PAK

27.47 (5)

WI

29.83 (22)

ZIM

32.00 (2)

SRI

46.40 (4)

IND

59.25 (8)





Strike Rate by Opponent

BAN

24.76

ENG

52.97

SA

50.67

PAK

51.07

WI

59.96

ZIM

74.00

SRI

66.40

IND

97.33

Warne:
Bowling Average by Opponent

PAK

18.61 (22)

SA

22.35 (33)

ZIM

22.83 (2)

ENG

23.03 (52)

NZ

25.08 (29)

SRI

25.54 (24)

WI

32.27 (27)

IND

49.38 (23)





Strike Rate by Opponent

PAK

43.46

SA

60.69

ZIM

53.17

ENG

59.03

NZ

58.79

SRI

53.68

WI

67.02

IND

94.87
 
Yes have you got the 3 series he was in India? And who is better, it helps if we answer each others questions.
 
If you compare mcgill's stats against his, you wont find that big of a difference.
The reason I mention this is because any international spin bowler can with a little bit of quality can take wickets against like of Eng, Nz etc who don know their head from their asre when it comes to playing spin.
Alright Pak and SRL are good at spin too but no where as good as India.
 
Red Sea said:
Ok then lets debate.

You say he has gone to India 3 times have you got the statistics for each season?
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You can try it out at www.cricinfo.com

From what I can remember it was Sidhu and Tendulkar who blasted him way back in the 98 tour and Warne wasnt succesful even during India's miserable tour down-under(1999-2000) . Later in 2001 it was Laxman, Tendulkar, Dravid and Ganguly. I was watching ESPN some time back and there was a warm up match between Bombay and Australia in which Sachin blasted Warne making a double century in a day and Warne was taken also apart by Bombay batsmen who were first class cricketers in India.

If not for his suspect action, I feel Murali is a better spinner than Warne. Am not trying to discredit Warne but both of them are great spinners
 
vijay said:
You can try it out at www.cricinfo.com

From what I can remember it was Sidhu and Tendulkar who blasted him way back in the 98 tour and Warne wasnt succesful even during India's miserable tour down-under(1999-2000) . Later in 2001 it was Laxman, Tendulkar, Dravid and Ganguly. I was watching ESPN some time back and there was a warm up match between Bombay and Australia in which Sachin blasted Warne making a double century in a day and Warne was taken also apart by Bombay batsmen who were first class cricketers in India.

If not for his suspect action, I feel Murali is a better spinner than Warne. Am not trying to discredit Warne but both of them are great spinners
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Cheers!
 
Indian tour of Aus 99-2000
Matches (Innings) Balls Maidens Runs Conceded Wickets
3 (6) , 762, 35, 335, 8

Average Strike Rate Wickets per Match Runs per Over
41.88 , 95.25 , 2.67 , 2.64
 
97-98 Tour to india

Matches (Innings) Balls Maidens Runs Conceded Wickets
3 (5) , 1002, 37, 540, 10
Average Strike Rate Wickets per Match Runs per Over
54.00 , 100.20, 3.33, 3.23
 
vijay said:
You can try it out at www.cricinfo.com

From what I can remember it was Sidhu and Tendulkar who blasted him way back in the 98 tour and Warne wasnt succesful even during India's miserable tour down-under(1999-2000) . Later in 2001 it was Laxman, Tendulkar, Dravid and Ganguly. I was watching ESPN some time back and there was a warm up match between Bombay and Australia in which Sachin blasted Warne making a double century in a day and Warne was taken also apart by Bombay batsmen who were first class cricketers in India.

If not for his suspect action, I feel Murali is a better spinner than Warne. Am not trying to discredit Warne but both of them are great spinners
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I agree Murali is a great bowler who is worth comparing with any spin bowler in the world but I agree his action is suspect.

However the point I was trying to make was that what i have read above Warne has had 6 poor tests in India isn't to discredit his career. All players have poor spells no matter how good unless your Bradman. And it is unfair to judge a player sole on that basis.
 
giggzy said:
What's that got to with anything? Australia have been head and shoulders above anyone over the past decade.

All pitches in England tend to seam, which is why English batsmen are comfortable at playing on seaming wickets. And generally don't get themselves out playing the ball that seams away, unlike batsmen of the sub-continent.

Same goes for Australia. They have the fastest pitches.........and play pace bowling better than any team in the world.
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Australia had (not now) the fastest pitches.and play pace bowling better than any team in the world. But England with seaming wickets are not quite comfortable with Medium pacers. Imran ,Kapil, Hadlee, Prabhakar etc have ripped England again and again even in their home conditions.
 
2001 TOUR TO INDIA
Matches (Innings) Balls Maidens Runs Conceded Wickets
3 (6) , 913 , 31, 505 , 10

Average Strike Rate Wickets per Match Runs per Over
50.50 , 91.30, 3.33, 3.32
 
SK Warne's bowling statistics FOR 91 TOUR OF INDIA TO AUS(DEBUT SERIES)
Matches (Innings) Balls Maidens Runs Conceded Wickets
2 (3) , 408, 9, 228, 1

Average Strike Rate Wickets per Match Runs per Over
228.00 , 408.00, 0.50, 3.35
 
crappycraperson said:
97-98 Tour to india

Matches (Innings) Balls Maidens Runs Conceded Wickets
3 (5) , 1002, 37, 540, 10
Average Strike Rate Wickets per Match Runs per Over
54.00 , 100.20, 3.33, 3.23
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Thankyou! I agree they are far from great but as a post I produced above it has said he was struggling with injury. And his record against India in Australia is pretty good, I would not say he has failed in Australia, and he has started off well in this series.

Who do you regard as better?
 
Red Sea said:
I agree Murali is a great bowler who is worth comparing with any spin bowler in the world but I agree his action is suspect.

However the point I was trying to make was that what i have read above Warne has had 6 poor tests in India isn't to discredit his career. All players have poor spells no matter how good unless your Bradman. And it is unfair to judge a player sole on that basis.
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I agree Warne does flight and turn the ball a lot-even in India but the present generation Indian batting lineup is well equipped to tackle Warne.
But we cannot discredit Warne for this one reason. He is a great bowler.
 
So there I listed all warne vs India stats , infact his record against India is equally poor whether at home or away.
It not just about these 10 odd matches, its about the fact that these matches were his true test of character , to prove he is indeed THE BEST. But he FAILED miserbaly.
Also so far you have presented no facts to support your argument, I am not even sure that you have actually watched warne play against INDIA.
 
vijay said:
Australia had (not now) the fastest pitches.and play pace bowling better than any team in the world. But England with seaming wickets are not quite comfortable with Medium pacers. Imran ,Kapil, Hadlee, Prabhakar etc have ripped England again and again even in their home conditions.
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Imran was genuine fast.... Garner, Marshall, Ambrose, Bishop, Waqar and Wasim have also ripped through England in England, time and time again. They were great bowlers, course they'll be handful in these conditions. But England do play on seaming wickets better than most(Aussies the best....) Just like Indians play better on spinning tracks, especially at home.

Point being. Batsman, will always be more comfortable, on pitches they're used to.
 
Red Sea said:
Thankyou! I agree they are far from great but as a post I produced above it has said he was struggling with injury. And his record against India in Australia is pretty good, I would not say he has failed in Australia, and he has started off well in this series.

Who do you regard as better?
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No it isnt. chech the stats i posted again.
And I assure he was suffering from no injury, that is load of BS. Before the tour started he may have had some injury but not when it started , he was perfectly fit.

I think Murali has to be regarded as better than warne untill he is banned or something.
 
crappycraperson said:
So there I listed all warne vs India stats , infact his record against India is equally poor whether at home or away.
It not just about these 10 odd matches, its about the fact that these matches were his true test of character , to prove he is indeed THE BEST. But he FAILED miserbaly.
Also so far you have presented no facts to support your argument, I am not even sure that you have actually watched warne play against INDIA.
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Hold on a minute I haven't finished yet. And no i haven't watched him against india, have you seen him bowl against England and Australia?

And who are you saying is better, if you dont give me a name how can I compare Warne?
 
Red Sea said:
Hold on a minute I haven't finished yet. And no i haven't watched him against india, have you seen him bowl against England and Australia?

And who are you saying is better, if you dont give me a name how can I compare Warne?
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Yes as a matter of fact I have watched him bowl against every test nation except Zim and Bangladesh.
As I said I am a keen follower of cricket and have done so for over 13 years now.
 
giggzy said:
Imran was genuine fast.... Garner, Marshall, Ambrose, Bishop, Waqar and Wasim have also ripped through England in England, time and time again. They were great bowlers, course they'll be handful in these conditions. But England do play on seaming wickets better than most(Aussies the best....) Just like Indians play better on spinning tracks, especially at home.

Point being. Batsman, will always be more comfortable, on pitches they're used to.
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Roberts, Holding ,Garner, Marshall, Ambrose, Bishop never needed assistance from pitch and conditions to deliver their goods. They can blow apart any batting line up in any kind of wicket.

Imran was fast when he started his career but as his career progressed time he shortened his run up and concentrated more on swing . Same holds good for Kapil. Even Waqar and Wasim...But how many great batsmen has England produced to counter seaming conditions. To my knowledge Gatting, Gooch, Gower Stewart, Lamb, Vaughan , Husaain and....
 
Where have you got the stats from? All I can see is he has played 6 tests before the recent series. Have you got the web site? And I will come back to you when I have seen stats on Muttiah Muralitharan.

I can only find Warne has had 6 tests in India please give me the web site
 
Red Sea said:
Where have you got the stats from? All I can see is he has played 6 tests before the recent series. Have you got the web site? And I will come back to you when I have seen stats on Muttiah Muralitharan.

I can only find Warne has had 6 tests in India please give me the web site
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He has indeed playes only 6 matches against India in INDIA (before this series), but 5 in AUS
Another couple of this series.
Total= 13
http://stats.cricket4.com/player_search_results.asp?Search=warne
 
Well I have checked out all the stats and its difficult to disagree that statistically Muttiah Muralitharan has a much better record than Warne against all countries bar Pakistan. However had you said this in the first place I would not have disagreed, however you never mentioned the player you regarded was better. He has played for Lancashire and I have seen him numerous times as well as against England, but I do regard him as a possible chucker.


And I still do not accept that Warne should only be judged against India. Would you disagree that for many years Australia have been the best in the world yet they haven't won a test series in India since 1969, does that according to you mean they haven't been the best?

And I can only go off the articles which say Warne was injured. I have no say in those articles, why should they lie?
 
vijay said:
Roberts, Holding ,Garner, Marshall, Ambrose, Bishop never needed assistance from pitch and conditions to deliver their goods. They can blow apart any batting line up in any kind of wicket.

Imran was fast when he started his career but as his career progressed time he shortened his run up and concentrated more on swing . Same holds good for Kapil. Even Waqar and Wasim...But how many great batsmen has England produced to counter seaming conditions. To my knowledge Gatting, Gooch, Gower Stewart, Lamb, Vaughan , Husaain and....
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All fast bowlers lose pace as they get older. Holding, Marshall, Bishop(very early in his career...) all lost a yard. Marshall became an excellent swing bowler later on in his career(88 onwards). I can remember watching Holding at the back end of his career(82ish) and he wasn't the tearaway he used to be. As for Imran, I recall watching him in in 1987, on his last tour to England, and he was still genuine fast. As fast as any around. Wasn't the same bowler after 1989. Same goes for Younis and Akram, they were lightening quick in 92, especially Waqar but lost a yard on their next visit, they could bowl teams out on flat tracks. Fact is, great fast bowlers like Imran, Holding, Waqar, Wasim, Garner and Marshall, were a handful in any conditions due to their genuine pace and skill.

It's bowlers like Alderman, that are tailor made for the English conditions.

Anyway, tt's natural for batsmen in England to play the seaming wickets better than most, (bar the Aussies). You'll notice the English players tend not to chase the ball outside of the offstump, and overall seem more comfortable in home conditions. The only way players from different countries can get used to seaming wickets in England is by playing county cricket.
 
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