'If this continues I'm done with United for the season!' Really?

No, I'm not done with the season. However, I used to watch every game with my sons whether at OT or on TV. It used to become a really nice father and sons event, we would discuss possible team line ups, predict scores and first goal scorer and watch every minute of the game with each other. This has happened since the kids were 5 & 6, now they are 9 & 10 but this season most evening games they have decided to go to bed by half time bored out of their minds and I can't blame them and now it's a point where I am trying to talk them in to watching a United game rather than them be exited by it!
 
If there is no significant change at the board level that puts us on a healthier path and Brendan Rodgers rolls in to the club I think I will turn my attention to another sport.
Anyone at Manchester United who doesn't kick a ball for a living has their head in the clouds. They've had the luxury of living in a haze of nostalgia certain that the good times are around the corner, it'll click because this is Manchester United and it happened before. It's a farce at this point.
 
I'll never stop watching the team no matter how bad it gets, isnt that what what fan should do? But I will say that i have started to care less and become more emotionless to the results on the pitch. Saturday was a case in point. In the old days a defeat in a derby on the early Saturday kick off would ruin my whole weekend. Now I just shrug and get on with life.
 
Fortitude said:
Seen this put forward a few times in this thread and was going to point out it's essentially a strawman that is triumphantly argued against whilst having barely any grounds in the discussion going on.

Sticking with a team through the thick and thin of them playing well/poorly/dreadfully but following the common ideals their fanbase identify with is not the same as watching wilful self-sabotage, indifference and malaise at board level filtered down to a staff that don't know what they're doing, which, common sense should dictate will lead to a mass exodus of the best players who refuse to partake in the circus any longer and will look out for themselves and their careers if the club they're playing for is perfectly happy to write off seasons in November. Ronaldo will most certainly be the first out the door if we're a Europa team next season, for example, with other top quality players been completely justified in asking their agents to find them a new club.

I can't even name an equivalent club to us because at Barcelona, everything was rosy until their financial incompetence caught up with them - ultimately they spent like imbeciles for the benefit of the club. Foolish in sentiment, but at least with the common goal of making the team the best it could be. At Ashley's Newcastle, they mightn't have played good football, but at least had a manager, team and staff that was in line with their standing. Newcastle are a traditionally attacking team, so the fans were let down there, but they were resigned to their lot knowing things couldn't be much better without Ashley releasing funds he had no intention of doing.

United are covered in Japanese knotweed with clearly addressable footballing problems draped all over them, even though we're thin in midfield, anyone stating this is not a world class squad, ripe for a good manager and coaching staff to challenge on all fronts is to be summarily dismissed. United finally have a squad that should, and would, be competing if the footballing side of the franchise had a clue. This frustrates the majority of the fanbase because they can see not only the issues unfolding in real-time, but also the very real likelihood of it damaging the club going forward for years yet as we face a departures of players who have it in them to make us a force, who will then need to be replaced with equivalent level players, who, in their right mind, will avoid us like the plague given their options.

This is a pivotal season, one we could still be challenging in, and yet some fans seem to be happy to watch the ship go down... for no reason at all. This isn't the 70's or 80's where we had mountains to climb and the expectations set for the club had faded: we're a global superpower who spend in a manner only Real and Barcelona can outside of the oil clubs. There is no excuse for the way the season is unfolding - it doesn't matter that it's Ole overseeing a 0-5 loss to Liverpool; off the back of a shocking season up to that point, only managers with credit in the bank should survive such a compound humiliation, and then, we flail until the disgraceful City game that was ostensibly worse than the Liverpool one despite the scoreline. That's not 'thick and thin': that's the territory of what is the board playing at? It shouldn't be common to be complicit in watching your team be routinely routed, its players exasperated for no good reason. This isn't underdogs in the trenches stuff - the strawman narrative doesn't fit, to the point I'd ask you to name another team that mirrors what's happening here. Clubs that spend £400m in three seasons can be counted on two hands: name a single one of them that passively sits an leaves its support up in arms.

What we have is a lot of self-serving people in key positions not looking out for the club, but rather their own position(s) in the establishment, again, something you won't find an equivalency with elsewhere because we're the worst run giant in football, if not sport.

Supposedly:

- The Glazers don't want any manager in who will kick up a fuss and comment about the football side of things, which other side in the world can this kind of accusation be hurled at?

- Woodward, supposedly doesn't want to sack the manager because it makes him look bad - at no point in there is there concern about the actual club he's working for.

- Ole is doing all sorts of madness with a squad that's worth an obscene amount to save his skin rather than benefit it [squad], his survival mode is causing ruptures that mightn't heal if left too long as half the squad he's alienated will have morale on the floor and the other half playing no matter what, whether fit or not, which benefits nobody.

Our problems run deeper than not being an 'entertaining brand' or feeling sorry for ourselves for one or two bad performances: we're in freefall and for all intents and purposes, it looks like nothing will be done about it until the season is an absolute write-off, which makes no sense at all.

Frustration is running rampant and the support is practically at arms with one another as camps have become staunch and entrenched: it should be pretty clear to see why some say they are 'done'.
If a few bad games was all there was to what's going on, I doubt people would be up in arms. And despite the rhetoric, if Ole was capable, I doubt there'd be many who would want him out.

It's also not entitlement to want to see your side do the best its resources allow, where again, a £400m investment should not see a side languishing playing atrocious football. I'd actually like to ask you what you believe £400m of investment should warrant, and at which point expectation for that £400m reaches the point of entitlement - where do these lines blur, in your opinion? Should nothing be said whilst the manager benches £200m+ at a time because he doesn't know how to utilise the talent at his disposal?

Anyway, for all that said, I am one of the poor buggers who will be watching every [needless] humiliation through to the end and taking that anger/disappointment into the remainder of my day/weekend. It'll not have the same energy or connection some want it to have where we were underdogs and Fergie's era of dominance hadn't yet been undertaken, and it is a nonsense in this time, with this investment, and this squad, to liken what's happening now to those kind of tough times of the past. It's nothing alike: this is just gross incompetence at every single level on a scale I'd challenge anyone to find an equivalency to in United's history.
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Long but great post. Exactly how I feel too.
 
Spoony said:
a new manager will help short term but medium to longer term we'll have the same problems. We need a holistic approach, for me it's quite simple. We're playing catch up to a few clubs...clubs with more finances than us.
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But this is not true. We have the highest net spent since Ole is here. We have the highest wage bill in the sports.

And shockingly, we have the highest net spent in the last 10 years, just above City. It is higher than Chelsea’s and Liverpool’s combined.

The excuse that we are competing against clubs with more resources that us, at this stage is just an excuse. It is completely false.
 
Even by RedCafe standards this has to be one of the melodramatic threads in history.

We are a mess but we are 6th and won 3-0 at Spurs a week or so ago :lol:

Hardly Oldham FC is it.
 
Don't worry man! When man utd wins something, you will come back, glory hunter!
 
Utd heap said:
Even by RedCafe standards this has to be one of the melodramatic threads in history.

We are a mess but we are 6th and won 3-0 at Spurs a week or so ago :lol:

Hardly Oldham FC is it.
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There’s a massive divide within the fan base between those who are just happy to go to the games with their mates and sing songs and support the club regardless and those who actually want to win and be the “biggest club in the world” as is so often peddled. If you want to win standards need to be met. That means when they aren’t it has to be called out.
 
Revan said:
But this is not true. We have the highest net spent since Ole is here. We have the highest wage bill in the sports.

And shockingly, we have the highest net spent in the last 10 years, just above City. It is higher than Chelsea’s and Liverpool’s combined.

The excuse that we are competing against clubs with more resources that us, at this stage is just an excuse. It is completely false.
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Revan said:
But this is not true. We have the highest net spent since Ole is here. We have the highest wage bill in the sports.

And shockingly, we have the highest net spent in the last 10 years, just above City. It is higher than Chelsea’s and Liverpool’s combined.

The excuse that we are competing against clubs with more resources that us, at this stage is just an excuse. It is completely false.
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What's not true? That the club doesn't need restructuring? The facilities don't need upgrading? We don't need more footballing men at the top? We've only just appointed data science folk when other clubs have been doing it for years. Liverpool's revenues are the same as ours now. Clearly the club is a mess from top to bottom.
 
BluesJr said:
There’s a massive divide within the fan base between those who are just happy to go to the games with their mates and sing songs and support the club regardless and those who actually want to win and be the “biggest club in the world” as is so often peddled. If you want to win standards need to be met. That means when they aren’t it has to be called out.
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And those passionate United fans should do something other than posting on forums like Redcafe...aiming their anger at match going fans. Get a ride to OT and start protesting. I'll help colouring in the placards.
 
Spoony said:
And those passionate United fans should do something other than posting on forums like Redcafe...aiming their anger at match going fans. Get a ride to OT and start protesting. I'll help colouring in the placards.
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Why do people like you take such a negative stance to those who want the best for the club?
 
Manchester (is not) United.

Because it is OGS in charge, our fan base is divided and split like I have never seen before.

It feels like a lot of our support who are playing it down would be yelling for the manager to get sacked if it was anyone else in charge.

Some, including myself, feel like club and fans are being neglected on a huge scale. It feels like we are being played. We do not feel heard.

It's no surprise that people are becoming sick of it when we know what Manchester United could and should be.
 
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Cee90 said:
Manchester (not) United.

Because it is OGS in charge, our fan base is divided and split like I have never seen before.

It feels like a lot of our support who are playing it down would be yelling for the manager to get sacked if it was anyone else in charge
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I think he should be sacked. The vast majority of match goers do from what I can gather (I know you go yourself). That's not really the argument.
 
Utd heap said:
Even by RedCafe standards this has to be one of the melodramatic threads in history.

We are a mess but we are 6th and won 3-0 at Spurs a week or so ago :lol:

Hardly Oldham FC is it.
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I find it to the contrary actually: posters going out of their way to either miss the point of what people are saying entirely who then persist in arguing against their own strawman, which they masterfully defeat each time, or displaying masterful selectivity when deciding to add their 2 pennies worth.

Perhaps it can be termed dishonest reading:? Disingenuous deduction? Posting in bad faith?

The terminology can be coined at a later date, but it's a fascinating process to witness in itself.

What I can take from it is it's really easy to fracture a fanbase and have them fight amongst themselves whilst not even trying to look at a bigger picture.
 
The club's run poorly, simply riding on the coat tails of its former glory.

Ed Woodward is an incompetent sycophant who doesn't create value. His prior work experience as a douchey investment banker only taught him how to extract it.

There are many, myself included, who fell in love with United because of the winning, never-say-die mentality. Whenever I don't see those values on the pitch for an extended period of time, I mentally check-out. The number of visitors / visits to the caf should be a fairly accurate reflection of this trend.
 
Utd heap said:
Even by RedCafe standards this has to be one of the melodramatic threads in history.

We are a mess but we are 6th and won 3-0 at Spurs a week or so ago :lol:

Hardly Oldham FC is it.
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Soon will be with Ole at the wheel.
 
Fortitude said:
I find it to the contrary actually: posters going out of their way to either miss the point of what people are saying entirely who then persist in arguing against their own strawman, which they masterfully defeat each time, or displaying masterful selectivity when deciding to add their 2 pennies worth.

Perhaps it can be termed dishonest reading:? Disingenuous deduction? Posting in bad faith?

The terminology can be coined at a later date, but it's a fascinating process to witness in itself.

What I can take from it is it's really easy to fracture a fanbase and have them fight amongst themselves whilst not even trying to look at a bigger picture.
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Do you think someone saying they have gone through '16 years of hell' because of being a Manchester United supporter a valid sentiment? Those are the exact words posted in this thread.
 
Moby said:
Do you think someone saying they have gone through '16 years of hell' because of being a Manchester United supporter a valid sentiment? Those are the exact words posted in this thread.
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Do you think that should be the takeaway from a thread that exceeds 350 posts? It can be if you want it to be, but in any reasonable consideration, you trim both extremes and look at the mean. That's if a person wants to, otherwise, there's an ulterior motive to honing in on any one post.

I find all the in-fighting and oneupmanship to be really pointless, especially so when there should be bigger things on the table to discuss. It genuinely feels like the rifts are growing now as well, which is a real shame.
 
Fortitude said:
Do you think that should be the takeaway from a thread that exceeds 350 posts? It can be if you want it to be, but in any reasonable consideration, you trim both extremes and look at the mean. That's if a person wants to, otherwise, there's an ulterior motive to honing in on any one post.

I find all the in-fighting and oneupmanship to be really pointless, especially so when there should be bigger things on the table to discuss. It genuinely feels like the rifts are growing now as well, which is a real shame.
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No but the post you quoted was specifically referring to the outrageous content of the thread and not the sentiment of the thread. Both of them are mutually exclusive. Sure there's a lot of valid reason for discontent and also there's a load of fans on here right now behaving like their house was set on fire. Someone can be allowed to comment on the latter without tying it up with the former - or perhaps it was you who decided to do it when you replied.
 
Utd heap said:
I think he should be sacked. The vast majority of match goers do from what I can gather (I know you go yourself). That's not really the argument.
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Fair enough.

I am a match going fan who is having a difficult time dealing with what's happening at the club at the moment, and I've often thought 'feck it, I'm done with this club' - the reality is I'm not, but I'm just very frustrated.

The reason I often feel like this is for many reasons, but ultimately it's because:

- I have absolutely no faith in our club to do the right thing. By the right thing, I mean do things for footballing reasons, to be the best on the pitch.
- I have zero trust in our ownership and senior management.
- I feel like the club is being neglected. We are not where we should be as a club and a lot of that is down to pure negligence.
- I feel like they do not give a sh*t about fans.

Every team will have difficult moments and it's not realistic to expect to win all the time. However, we have seen this kind of sh*t for the best part of a decade and it feels like the club is simply incapable of learning from its mistakes.

This is not about saying 1 set of supporters is better than the other, but in my opinion a lot of those fans who are writing off the season, not going to games or following the club at this time have made a conscious effort not to do so because they care about the club so much and it hurts.

It might sound like hyperbole, but we are heavily invested in the club. This is not like following any other business. However, the ultimate reality is that we are a business first, and a football club second. I didn't fall in love with this club because of our balance sheet, I fell in love with the club because of our football and what we stood for.
 
Moby said:
No but the post you quoted was specifically referring to the outrageous content of the thread and not the sentiment of the thread. Both of them are mutually exclusive. Sure there's a lot of valid reason for discontent and also there's a load of fans on here right now behaving like their house was set on fire. Someone can be allowed to comment on the latter without tying it up with the former - or perhaps it was you who decided to do it when you replied.
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Not really, the intention is clear and apparent - thread stated in blanket terms: a pointless derision to invalidate the entirety of what people air as their concerns or reasons for their current stance.

As I said, you chop off both sides of the extreme, and analyse from there, if you want to, and if you don't, then that's where whatever intention a post is made in will reveal itself.
 
Fortitude said:
Not really, the intention is clear and apparent - thread stated in blanket terms: a pointless derision to invalidate the entirety of what people air as their concerns or reasons for their current stance.

As I said, you chop off both sides of the extreme, and analyse from there, if you want to, and if you don't, then that's where whatever intention a post is made in will reveal itself.
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So you are basically happy to look at things from your eyes, and not what's exactly written. If you want people to concentrate on the real issue, maybe first work on removing the extreme content which is causing the confusion. There is no clear and apparent intention, only what aligns with your own. That applies to everyone. Short answer - if a thread's gonna have people post bollocks, it's gonna have people have a laugh at that, which has nothing to do with them disregarding the 'clear and apparent' intention of the thread.

And for what's it's worth, you are not gonna achieve any sort of alignment by constantly drawing conclusions on people's intentions without actually clarifying their exact stance so yeah, part of the problem.
 
Spoony said:
What's not true? That the club doesn't need restructuring? The facilities don't need upgrading? We don't need more footballing men at the top? We've only just appointed data science folk when other clubs have been doing it for years. Liverpool's revenues are the same as ours now. Clearly the club is a mess from top to bottom.
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That there are clubs with more resources than us. We have been outspending everyone, including the oil clubs (in case of Chelsea, significantly so).

I totally agree with your other points though. Sacking Ole and getting a good manager would be a step in the right direction, but just a tiny step. Even more important is to have competent people on the board (CEO, DoF etc), which we have been refusing to do for a very long time. People who are proven in the modern football.
 
KiD MoYeS said:
I will always support the club but if the owners don't care about results then why should I?
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The Glazers have one primary concern, and that's to maximise their profits from the club.

I'm not sure a like for like comparison between the fans and the Glazers reaction to a poor result is one worthy of consideration?
 
Moby said:
So you are basically happy to look at things from your eyes, and not what's exactly written. If you want people to concentrate on the real issue, maybe first work on removing the extreme content which is causing the confusion. There is no clear and apparent intention, only what aligns with your own. That applies to everyone. Short answer - if a thread's gonna have people post bollocks, it's gonna have people have a laugh at that, which has nothing to do with them disregarding the 'clear and apparent' intention of the thread.

And for what's it's worth, you are not gonna achieve any sort of alignment by constantly drawing conclusions on people's intentions without actually clarifying their exact stance so yeah, part of the problem.
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I'm happy to take each post as a single entity. 'Exactly what's written' by a single person - not a monolith - is simply one post amongst many. Something that would be taken on board and moved on from, if the intention was not to demean the entire thread's input outside of a single post.

If that's the takeaway from hundreds of posts, a person is not in the thread for any other reason but to be dismissive.
 
I have mentally checked out from giving a shit until Ole is sacked. Until that happens there is no hope of improvement. I'll still watch the games, but there will be minimal excitement or enthusiasm from me in doing so.
I was so angry after the Liverpool match, but for the City one I watched with a sense of cold detachment. Didn't let the embarrassing performance and result affect the rest of my weekend.
That is how it affects me anyway - I just switch off from it mentally.
 
Fortitude said:
I'm happy to take each post as a single entity. 'Exactly what's written' by a single person - not a monolith - is simply one post amongst many. Something that would be taken on board and moved on from, if the intention was not to demean the entire thread's input outside of a single post.

If that's the takeaway from hundreds of posts, a person is not in the thread for any other reason but to be dismissive.
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And where exactly did the poster that you quoted explicitly say that their entire takeaway from this thread was what you concluded that it was?
 
Revan said:
That there are clubs with more resources than us. We have been outspending everyone, including the oil clubs (in case of Chelsea, significantly so).

I totally agree with your other points though. Sacking Ole and getting a good manager would be a step in the right direction, but just a tiny step. Even more important is to have competent people on the board (CEO, DoF etc), which we have been refusing to do for a very long time. People who are proven in the modern football.
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The manager does need replacing that's not even debatable. Save two or three fans on here the rest want a new man in charge. The question should be why have to the owners let the club stagnate? Barca are up schitt's creek.. yet they can see the value of completely renovating the Camp Nou for example, it will cost a billion quid and yield €200m annually. Whereas we've let OT rot. I don't understand our thought process...we've flatlined in terms of revenue. In future to keep up with City, Chelsea, and Newcastle or any other club funded by a state, we've got to be a head of the game in other aspects.
 
Moby said:
The bloke that has gone through "16 years of hell" takes the cake. :lol:
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Just to clear that up it's due to the leeching parasites I made that comment not about the current state of the team
 
Moby said:
And where exactly did the poster that you quoted explicitly say that their entire takeaway from this thread was what you concluded that it was?
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First sentence. 'Posts' is correct, you don't say 'threads' when you mean a single post.
 
croadyman said:
Just to clear that up it's due to the leeching parasites I made that comment not about the current state of the team
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Sorry mate but if you are gonna refer one of the most successful periods in club's history as being 'hell' then it's gonna get ripped apart.
 
Moby said:
Sorry mate but if you are gonna refer one of the most successful periods in club's history as being 'hell' then it's gonna get ripped apart.
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My point was it could have been even better IF those yanks weren't stinking up the joint and stopping us building on a position of real strength from 2009-2013 and most notably post Fergie of course
 
croadyman said:
My point was it could have been even better IF those yanks weren't stinking up the joint and stopping us building on a position of real strength from 2009-2013 and most notably post Fergie of course
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And no one would have disagreed if you posted that and not what you actually did.
 
As a match-goer, and based purely on the commitment of some of the players, I'm thinking I'll probably not bother with some of the upcoming games. I'd watch them on the TV, I still love United of course. I've got stuff going on, stuff in my life to get done and that 1hr + each way to OT seems like more commitment than some of the players are making tbh. Next home game, I will likely feel different, but after sitting through the Liverpool and City defeats I'm not feeling like putting in the effort/time to get to the ground!

Having said all that, we've lost to the top 2 teams in the league, the worse results were the previous couple of PL games really. Which is a controversial take really. Maybe we're turning a downturn of form, a bad period and turning it into a crisis? When players return from injury and without Pogba the team might get back to some decent results? That would work for me. Then Ten Hag next season
 
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