Pretty much average players? You speak about Man Utd right?
If Odegaard and Havertz works, then why can't Mount and Bruno?
- Thread starter Walters_19_MuFc
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Because our players give away possession pointlessly and we have wingers who do feck all without space and support of an overlapping fullback.
Not when one player(Bruno) gives the ball away like it’s nothing.
A crucial component to Havertz/Odegaard (finally) working is their off the ball work. They are brilliant off the ball and know when to drop and when to press. Odegaard often leads this (and the team follows) and Havertz is arguably often better off the ball than on it. Rice of course is brilliant but the two in front of him do a good job of not leaving gaps in midfield. For United, Casemiro unfortunately is probably on his last legs and can't cover the ground Rice can (and he cost £60mil). And Bruno and Mount collectively isn't as disciplined or good off the ball as Odegaard and Havertz. Though, Mount has barely played so hard to really judge him.
I think Mount is capable of playing in this role.
Havertz has had a few decent games. Wouldn’t say he’s any better than Mount. Mount won player of the season twice at Chelsea…
I don't think Odegaard and havertz in midfield works that well. At least not in bigger games. They aim to control games though and they aren't built based on transition/direct football, but they are built to dominate the ball and possession. It's a different system so they can have more creators in it. And saying that, Odegaard is far more comfortable in deep spaces than Bruno. He is press resistant, he is a very good carrier, he keeps the ball brilliantly, and is suited to possession football. Rice is also an excellent lone DM with his physical attributes, which we don't have.
Ten Hags system is transition based, direct football. He even said that was his aim. If that's your aim, you need more defensive solidity otherwise there are just huge gaps to exploit. Bruno also is not press resistant, has 0 carrying ability, and is not a deep midfielder. Mount also isn't like Odegaard where he's going to look to get on the ball much. He just adds a bit here and there, he doesn't have the ability and understanding to dictate possession. Mainoo is, but Mainoo is a deeper player and not a 10. He also isn't a lone DM though and can't do the role Rice needs to do for Arsenal.
Ten Hags system is transition based, direct football. He even said that was his aim. If that's your aim, you need more defensive solidity otherwise there are just huge gaps to exploit. Bruno also is not press resistant, has 0 carrying ability, and is not a deep midfielder. Mount also isn't like Odegaard where he's going to look to get on the ball much. He just adds a bit here and there, he doesn't have the ability and understanding to dictate possession. Mainoo is, but Mainoo is a deeper player and not a 10. He also isn't a lone DM though and can't do the role Rice needs to do for Arsenal.
Maybe that’s because Mount isn’t a false 9
you might want to check each players position and roles before comparing them.I'd have to disagree; Odegaard and Havertz playing almost as two 10s was very effective against Liverpool recently, and they combined to create the first goal for Saka. Havertz also came on as a sub and helped us score the winner against City. He played as the LCM when we beat you at the Emirates. Havertz seems to be well trusted by Arteta.
But I think what we've been doing the last few games is what's working best at the moment - Trossard at false 9 with Havertz and Odegaard behind him. Odegaard is also dropping deeper to receive the ball (a tactical tweak from Arteta) and Trossard and Havertz are constantly interchanging making it hard for defenders to track players.
Bruno and Mount can absolutely work together in a team that controls games. We are not that team under Ten Hag. We have the minority of possession in far too many games. We are a transition team. Having said that, I'm interested to see Mount back in the team now that the front three are starting to produce.
You had both Jorginho and Rice in against Liverpool?
I am very curious to see what the plan is with Mount and why ETH brought him in. It's frustrating he's only been able to manage a limited number of league appearances. Mainoo coming in and securing his position in the starting 11 is going to make this even more interesting when Mount is back. I can't see who he is coming in to replace in that 11, unless ETH is thinking of Mainoo + Mount + Bruno, which...I'm not entirely sure what I feel about that. Is Mount renowned for being mobile and keeping the ball?
Yes we did and in truth we played with both Havertz and Odegaard as false 9s. When we were defending, Havertz and Odegaard were the highest up the pitch and Saka and Martinelli dropped next to Rice and Jorginho to form our midfield 4. It was a different formation and Liverpool were totally unprepared for it. But my point was a general one that Havertz, at the moment, is in our best 11, particularly for big games. His versatility and ability to play false 9 and interchange into midfield, plus his immense workrate off the ball, makes him one of our best players at the moment.
Ah yeah, I'm not arguing that so much, more so that I don't think Rice alone behind Odegaard and havertz works in tough games. Arteta seems to share that opinion though.
Oh right yes I agree it depends on someone slotting in next to Rice. I agree Rice alone wouldn't work as it gives him too much to do. I must have misunderstand you, sorry.
Usually Zinchenko would invert next to Rice, but as he's been out, White has been doing that lately (and quite well). That allows Odegaard to drop deeper, finding more space to progress the ball. I've been quite pleasantly surprised with how Arteta has been able to evolve us and make small tactical tweaks as the season has wore on.
No idea how Mount would fare but any Manager relying on Bruno to control games is hiding to nothing .
Rice is a better currently than Cas and Haveertz has always been better than Mount. We bought Jesse Lingard for £60m and then will be surprised why it doesn't work. Look at Mainoo - that's an actual CM.
A better coach
Zinchenko himself is not there preferred choice for big games. Generally it's Tomiyasu. Zinchenko is too big a liability especially in the big games and i would say otherwise aswell.
I think Mount will be a real boon to this team, can't wait to see him back in the side. Bruno can play a little more conservatively with Mount alongside him, not needing to be Roy of the Rovers every time he gets the ball.
This x 100
Watch Arsenal out of possession then watch us, its night and day. They simply move better as a team than we do, and are very compact. Where as we are very disconnected and dont apply pressure on the ball that well.
Mount needs more time in the gym.
Can still fit a possession game
This is true.
No matter how anyone wants to twist it, Bruno is not press resistant nor disciplined enough to be a player that controls possession and dictates tempo. He thrives from chaotic, fast-paced counters.
If United want to start dominating games and possession, players like Bruno and Rashford can never be a part of that. They simply don't have the tactical or technical skill set required. They're the opposite types of players you'd see in a Pep-system. Some fans like to compare Bruno to De Bruyne, which is ridiculous. De Bruyne has arguably been the best footballer in the world for the past 5 years, and should have won the Ballon d'Or multiple times, had it been a proper award. Bruno is nowhere near that level. But our (lack of) tactics means that everything we do is based on giving Bruno the ball to feed Rashford, so of course Bruno's chance creation stats will be off the charts. He literally plays every single minute, and no one else is practically allowed to get the ball to create.
We even made him captain, which is on par with some of the dumbest decision making we've done, and that's some stiff competition. He is by no means a leader. He is a hard worker, and he is passionate, but that's not the definition of a leader. A leader should inspire, motivate, and even sometimes frighten you to never let your standards drop an inch. A leader should be extremely charismatic, something Bruno absolutely is not. If anything, he looks bewildered and petulant most of the time. Roy Keane was a true leader. Bruno is just a grafter. A good grafter at that, but still just a grafter.
If we want to continue to play on the counter and be a top 4 team at best with awful game management and little to no control, Bruno and Rashford will be suitable options.
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More or less agree on everything good post , hopefully United's new management can see past the names and all the noise and do what's really needed to Change United's fortune .
Bruno is the reason. I don' think any midfield combination with Bruno in it would play dominant football. He is always the "high risk - high return" type of "Bruno ball" and monopoly all creative work, even the chance is premature he still tries it anyway. We used to have Bruno play along with Pogba and Matic, the two who can both control balls well and talent enough to play dominant football, but the outcome was still "Bruno ball" .
Mount on the other hand would well suit with Casemiro and Mainoo and give us more possession and control . But with Bruno been selected as captain and politically un-droppable , we would not see this trio start together regularly.
Mount on the other hand would well suit with Casemiro and Mainoo and give us more possession and control . But with Bruno been selected as captain and politically un-droppable , we would not see this trio start together regularly.
Our new players above 25 have an allergic reaction to being coached
I mostly agree with some minor nits.
We only force this from the mid block generally, I think our high pressing game to force turnovers is quite ineffective. If there's a success % stat for pressured goal kicks resulting in a turnover, we'll be quite mediocre. My instinct also says our counter press after loosing possession is quite crap but less certain about this.
The situation where we do the best is after the initial phase where the GK passes it to the CBs and the ball progresses a bit but not quite as far as the half way line.
I disagree. There's some situations in which Dalot continues to invert but I can't for the life of me figure out which games he does this and which games he doesn't. It's clearly a tactical instruction from Ten Hag and even after Garnacho / Hojlund / Rashford began to click into gear we don't see the fullback inverting consistently. On the contrary, we've seen him invert in some games while our attack was still crap.
For me the current state is:
Shaw (wide cb, license to go forward)
Martinez (middle, finds line breaking passes)
Varane (wide cb, license to go forward)
Dalot, Casemiro in the middle when he chooses to invert. I don't think Shaw inverts any more, he's happy being the 3rd CB.
I don't think this is optional. Regardless of what we do, for me we need more physicality and pace through the middle. Bruno and Rashford are too easily shrugged off. No real athleticism in there even with a guy like Mainoo at #8. Casemiro has no pace and just dives in to compensate and gets booked.
Hojlund's pressing is adding some much needed steel but we need some spine. For me, a duo of athletic and powerful DM and CB will do the trick along with either Rashford giving more of a shit or replacing him with someone of the Mane / Diaz mould.
If Martinelli and Saka works then why can't Rashford and Garnacho?
Odegaard’s general play is miles ahead of that of Bruno. Martinelli is much better than Rashford of this season. Casemiro is struggling to cope with Luton Town’s midfield. That plus losing key players like Martinez - our best CB by a mile - plays a big part, aside from the good job Arteta and their executives have done.
Mount is never fit so it’s pointless to make claims with regards to him. But what games has Bruno ever controlled? You say that we aren’t that team under ETH. But when have we ever been that team and when has Bruno ever been a key cog of such a team? Portugal do well against trash teams in qualifiers but in the crunch knockout games their system broke down.
We whine about being a counter attacking team despite key players being just that. Which possession team would thrive with Bruno and Rashford? Or even Casemiro without Modric and Kroos to make up for it?
Where would Mount even play in the current setting ?
No, Bruno only works if he's stripped of any defensive duties and allowed to wield his creativity. Only then it makes sense to build the team around him, what made sense for us in a few seasons.
Bruno is a poor imitation of a midfielder, people think he will make a good CM because he runs a lot, but he is a headless chicken and my grandma would be able to dribble past him. It's not his fault, this is the kind of a player he is, it's just shocking from the manager who figured we should give Bruno more defensive/buildup responsibilities, what apparently also resulted in him losing the X factor - and eventually made him easily "replaceable".
And while we're at it, I actually believe Mount is a better fit for us for the future, he's more all-round player, can keep possession and run with the ball. I am confident he'll show that soon, if he ever plays football again this season what I am not sure of.
Although true, I'd make a small tweak to it - even with Mainoo on the pitch Casemiro seems like he has too much to do, both #8s starting position is just too high and they should be more compact in midfield, but the manager wants to play direct football not waste the energy for meaningless horizontal/short passes + we must be the only team that presses high and has low defensive line.
Casemiro is actually close to perfect DM for how ETH wants to play (I think he got really lucky with Case), the problem is he seems like his legs are truly gone and his tackling ability has gone south. As a result we rarely intercept the ball in midfield, what is crucial to our transition game. I do believe Casemiro is done at this level and no formation will make this work with him as DM (especially that Mainoo is another low-energy CM, he need a different midfield partner).
Even once we replace Casemiro, neither of Mount / Bruno are capable of playing Odegaard role, they are both suited to perform as pure #10/second striker, but this setup doesn't make sense, we'll still struggle to build from the back. We need two #8s who are comfortable dropping deep and helping in each phase of the game AND on top of that we can give them more freedom to make runs into the box/out wide. Mount is the right player to perform all those tasks, but Bruno makes sense only in 4231 setup.
This would be the right moment to replace Bruno in the team (or at least phase him out) as we're actually not relying on him anywhere as much as in the previous seasons to create/score. But we don't need another #10, we need Casemiro replacement as Mainoo is already our best midfielder and very clearly not a DM, and "Mount-and-Bruno"midfield will no longer be a topic.
@Borys I was willing to consider your take on Bruno cause you make some borderline valid points and then you blew it by writing " I actually believe Mount is a better fit for us for the future, he's more all-round player, can keep possession and run with the ball." So don't take it personally if utterly ignore everything you wrote then.
Sure man, that's one way to discuss on a forum. I will have to live with it, but I think I can take it.
Aside from anything else, we don't know I'd Bruno and Mount can work because its barely been tried.
A Declan Rice 6, an inverted full back and two selfless wingers defensively
I've been saying this all season but I don't think its anything to do with Casemiro's legs being gone. If the plan is to intercept the ball high then its more, not less important, that the no10s aren't too high, because as soon as the ball is past them its game over.
Casemiro can have all the legs and energy he wants, if he is effectively a one man defensively line, any pass or even clearance that isn't directly towards him, he isn't going to be favourite for. I don't think its even complicated, if its one player vs 2-3 across an area and width of the pitch, its impossible for that player to position themselves somewhere they can be favourite to win the ball or even have a realistic chance of doing so. It wouldn't matter if they had the pace of Usain Bolt and energy of Kante.
If you've got Casemiro and Mainoo in midfield and still struggle to keep the ball or string a pass together against every single opponent, then that is a problem with the system, not the players.
This could all be solved by just playing Mainoo slightly deeper so he is alongside Casemiro, which is what we did with Eriksen and Fred last season, and would be a much more sensible, easy, and logical solution than saying "we need to drop Bruno and then sign another no10 who isn't really a no10 and then also hope Mount becomes less useless than he has been for nearly 3 years now, or sign ANOTHER no10 who isn't a no10 and then also sign a replacement for Casemiro".
Also I'm really fecking sick of having to say this in every thread on this bloody forum, but not every solution to our team HAS to involve dropping Bruno. Especially if you have to go to extreme length like replacing 3-4 other players and expecting another to magically get much better in order for dropping Bruno to be the solution.
At the moment the solution is that our manager needs to get into his head what a midfield is, and this has been our single biggest problem the entire season. He wont set us up with a functioning midfield even now when he has the players available to actually pick a pretty decent one and even puts them on the pitch together.