Odegaard and Havertz are far more positionally disciplined than Mctom, Mount and Bruno. They start deeper, commit forward when the chances are there and immediately drop back into their starting positions. Our lot bomb forward and stay there.
If Odegaard and Havertz works, then why can't Mount and Bruno?
- Thread starter Walters_19_MuFc
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Yeah why didn’t we sign someone else instead of the one sensible signing we’ve made in the past decade.
That's a great analysis. I'm really starting to notice these 20 minute patterns you mention. We actually look amazing at times and then it just all falls apart.
Do you really think we put Rice in that DM position and it clicks, just like that? The truth is we've been really, really bad playing this setup this season. Don't think it's just Rice.
Bingo. Although I'd say Shaw and Dalot are the least of our problems to play this formation. Much bigger problem is that our wingers are not so good at playing triangles with fullbacks and finding fullbacks with a pass. In fact our best player last season doesn't seem to have that in his locker.
If we're bringing that to "personnel" level, I'd say this is the closest to an explanation. IMO Casemiro could do a job in this Arsenal side, Mount could do a job in this Arsenal side (if he playerd with Odegaard), but as far as Bruno is concerned, I don't see him in this setup. He is simply too direct, too attacking oriented and weak in possession.
This.
In my opinion, this system is fundamentally flawed becuase:
- we don't have a single LW who is good in possession and defensively, they are both wide forwards; there are question marks if we have any right winger at all but this is a bigger problem than just this setup
- our #10s are too far forward and don't participate in build up play - that goes especially for Mount (and now ETH darling McTominay)
- our pressing is shit - since it's high risk/high reward strategy, once you get through our first pressing wave, it's highway to our goal
- Bruno is just not suited to play this sophisticated football IMO, he's a pure attacking #10 with a great eye for a goal/final pass; it's a travesty to force him into more restricted role; if ETH has not realised that by now, he never will
This might be a bit controversial but we have some players who are suited to this system:
- fullbacks (Shaw/Dalot)*
- DM (Casemiro, if he isn't done that is, and Mainoo looks like a good fit)
- Mount...
* side note: considering our huge problems with Rashford/Sancho/Antony misfiring or whatever, I actually think it's worth trying out a system where our fullbacks can get more involved.
ETH mistake IMO is that he tried to move from more of a traditional setup to this modern "two #10s" too quickly, and we completely lost it. What he should've done is replace Eriksen with someone who can bring energy, defensive cover and drive in midfield - once we stabilize, only then implement more fancy tactical methods like pushing 10s high, fullbacks tucking in, CBs stepping into midfield etc. This is a trait of a great coach, not going from A to Z over one summer.
Yep, all about Odegaard being a brilliant attacking mid. Quick, great in possession, releases the ball at the right times, plays the more dangerous balls at the right time.
I love Bruno, honestly do but Odegaard is the better player imo.
I love Bruno, honestly do but Odegaard is the better player imo.
Simple answer; because they have Rice (or Partey) as their anchor man while we have no one of comparable quality, and also because Ødegaard plays a much more balanced and disciplined style than Bruno does. And because they're better organised as a team. And then you can discuss if it really "works" with Havertz.
Do Havertz and Odegaard work though?
We simply dont have enough data to draw any such conclusion. First of all, as others have pointed out, Havertz has only very recently begone doing anything positive for Arsenal. We have been hit hard by injuries and have had to change midfield setup so much that we actually dont really know if it can work.
I am not convinced that Mainoo, Bruno and Mount cannot work. To many factors and to small of a sample size to simply conclude anything right now.
I am not convinced that Mainoo, Bruno and Mount cannot work. To many factors and to small of a sample size to simply conclude anything right now.
I said in a couple of threads on Wednesday, it’s the inverted full back, or lack of. Ten Hag tried it at the beginning of the season and it wasn’t working so he seems to have simplified things a bit. But we’re getting killed leaving one man in the midfield constantly. Even then there were a few times when Amrabat did go forward on Wednesday, meaning that whoever else is playing needs to be super switched on to realise.
Because odegaard is one of the best, if not the best complete midfielders in world football at the moment. Have you watched him play? Compare him to Bruno and the answer is obvious.
Our two main #10s (Bruno in McTominay) have more goal contributions combined (9) than Odegaard and Havertz (7). It is quite clear the difference is in balance and how the whose system works, how the ball is moving etc. When you compare action areas, heatmaps, passing, then Bruno is the one in Odegaard role for us.
That is obviously on top of our frontline doing close to nothing offensively, so in a way the rest of the team has to take more risks - this is kind of an excuse for Ten Hag tbh.
That is obviously on top of our frontline doing close to nothing offensively, so in a way the rest of the team has to take more risks - this is kind of an excuse for Ten Hag tbh.
Not really sure Havertz "works". But the other two Arsenal midfielders are far better at the actual midfield stuff than ours are.
Their current three isn't perfect midfield balance-wise, but it's certainly better than ours.
Their current three isn't perfect midfield balance-wise, but it's certainly better than ours.
I don't think it's really made Arsenal better so far, but the one key ingredient that they have is their ability to keep possession. This could make it a success for them as it provides overloads etc. We have players pushed up the pitch but give the ball away with ease and it's all so static. We end up having to chase back constantly so it's more of a hindrance to us.
@#07 nails it from a tactical standpoint.
Two massive issues as well that is a clear difference and boils down to personnel is the lack of physicality of our midfield players and the inability of our wide players to carry the ball, draw fouls and retain possession.
We are so so weak in central midfield when it comes to puré strength and athleticism. It means we lose so many duels, both ground and aerially completely hindering any ability to stop counters. Arsenal and city have absolute giants in that area.
Our wide forwards are the other massive issue. They treat the ball like a hot potatoe and concede possession at a ridiculous rate. I love Garnacho but he loses the ball way too much at times. Rashford is simply an abomination in this current form and whilst Antony is decent at holding the ball he is basically a non entity at beating players and drawing fouls. Now compare that to Saka, Martinelli, Grealish, Doku.
This is what just baffles me about our recruitment. Eth clearly had a plan but his signings just don’t make any sense in terms of executing that plan. There’s also several players that don’t seem to be able to execute certain habits required to get this style of play effective. If we don’t have the strength we at least need to get players in the right positions during turnovers. And same for attacks, if we don’t have the wide forwards capable of doing certain things, get the runs and players around them for support. It all just creates a mess of a system and is why non United fans (pundits mostly) say things like “I don’t get what they’re trying to do “.. we are trying we’re just failing very badly.
Two massive issues as well that is a clear difference and boils down to personnel is the lack of physicality of our midfield players and the inability of our wide players to carry the ball, draw fouls and retain possession.
We are so so weak in central midfield when it comes to puré strength and athleticism. It means we lose so many duels, both ground and aerially completely hindering any ability to stop counters. Arsenal and city have absolute giants in that area.
Our wide forwards are the other massive issue. They treat the ball like a hot potatoe and concede possession at a ridiculous rate. I love Garnacho but he loses the ball way too much at times. Rashford is simply an abomination in this current form and whilst Antony is decent at holding the ball he is basically a non entity at beating players and drawing fouls. Now compare that to Saka, Martinelli, Grealish, Doku.
This is what just baffles me about our recruitment. Eth clearly had a plan but his signings just don’t make any sense in terms of executing that plan. There’s also several players that don’t seem to be able to execute certain habits required to get this style of play effective. If we don’t have the strength we at least need to get players in the right positions during turnovers. And same for attacks, if we don’t have the wide forwards capable of doing certain things, get the runs and players around them for support. It all just creates a mess of a system and is why non United fans (pundits mostly) say things like “I don’t get what they’re trying to do “.. we are trying we’re just failing very badly.
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Havertz doesn't really work, per se. Him and Mount are largely on the same level, that is average, though Havertz has the added benefit of being available for selection most of the time. Another thing Havertz has is proper midfielders around him to shore up some of his shortcomings and a manager that knows how to do that. We have neither.
Odegaard is world class. And Rice is an excellent DM. In the former's role we have Bruno Fernandes who is the furthest thing from a metronome. He needs players around him to shore up his shortcomings and not the other way around. In the latter's role we have an aging Casemiro and a bargain bin DM. Furthermore, Ten Hag is setting up the team by pushing both Bruno and Mount high up and leaving his DM to dry. But without actually having the DM who can handle it. That's why teams were slicing us open effortlessly.
Overall, it doesn't work because Mount isn't good enough, we don't have the midfielders to accomodate him, and our manager doesn't really seem to know how to set it all up. As it stands, I'd much rather play Mainoo with Amrabat or Casemiro. Mount just has no place in this team whatsoever as long as Bruno is here.
Odegaard is world class. And Rice is an excellent DM. In the former's role we have Bruno Fernandes who is the furthest thing from a metronome. He needs players around him to shore up his shortcomings and not the other way around. In the latter's role we have an aging Casemiro and a bargain bin DM. Furthermore, Ten Hag is setting up the team by pushing both Bruno and Mount high up and leaving his DM to dry. But without actually having the DM who can handle it. That's why teams were slicing us open effortlessly.
Overall, it doesn't work because Mount isn't good enough, we don't have the midfielders to accomodate him, and our manager doesn't really seem to know how to set it all up. As it stands, I'd much rather play Mainoo with Amrabat or Casemiro. Mount just has no place in this team whatsoever as long as Bruno is here.
At what point has Havertz actually worked at Arsenal? He's been as bad as Mount has been for us, while actually playing a significant amount.
Also the difference is Odegaard is far better at midfielder stuff than Bruno
Also the difference is Odegaard is far better at midfielder stuff than Bruno
Good post and agreed. As usual, there are some overly simplistic takes in here like "because Odegaard is better" or because "Rice is better than Casa". I'm not convinced they are the fundamental issues, as you said it goes much deeper. This is much more about overall team structure, composition and weaknesses in comparison to an Arsenal or City.
Very simple. Rice is better than Casemiro and more defensively oriented, Odegaard is more of an 8 than Bruno and Mount combined, and that's about it.
Saka, Odegaard and Martinelli retain the ball better than Rashford, Anotny and Bruno I'd say. So Rice doesn't get swamped like Casemiro used to.
Bruno is a real liability to the team in many ways, loses the ball frequently and very prone to giving away freekicks near his own box. Yes he's very creative, but there's no balance, I'd happily have him less creative if he then became more stable and reliable with the ball.
They have a more trustable process than us.
As others have I think, there is a question as to whether it even works for Arsenal but I think for a midfield trio to work with two attacking 8s/10s, you need a DM who is very good defensively and more importantly you need players who are comfortable in possession, get on the ball regularly and don't give it away. For me it's probably the most difficult midfield setup to be successful in. Aside from City with D. Silva or B. Silva and KDB, have we really had many teams be successful implementing a similar set up? To some extent, Liverpool are giving it a crack without a proper DM now as well.
Looking at PL Stats per 90 for the DMs.
Rice and Partey are much safer with the ball - even when playing well, Casemiro can be quite careless in possession.
Looking at PL Stats per 90 for the the two captains.
Bruno gets on the ball quite a bit, last season making more passes on average than Odegaard, however he's more careless in possession.
I'd argue the comparison between Havertz and Mount is more difficult as they played different positions at Chelsea and this season Havertz has played in other positions at times and Mount hasn't had many minutes, and where they have, it's largely been from the bench.
I personally think Mount is more of a natural fit into a team playing two 10s but stylistically, with two attacking no.8s/10s then Rice or last season's Partey are better options as a sole DM. Equally, I think Odegaard is a better fit for the system than Bruno.
Looking at PL Stats per 90 for the DMs.
| PL Stats Per 90 | Declan Rice 22/23 (West Ham) | Declan Rice (23/24 Arsenal) | Thomas Partey (22/23 Arsenal) | Casemiro (22/23 United) | Casemiro (23/24 United) |
| Passes Completed | 50.5 | 58.7 | 62 | 47 | 49.3 |
| Passing Accuracy | 88.05% | 91.44% | 87.98 | 78.54% | 82.79% |
Rice and Partey are much safer with the ball - even when playing well, Casemiro can be quite careless in possession.
Looking at PL Stats per 90 for the the two captains.
| PL Stats Per 90 | Martin Ødegaard (22/23 Arsenal) | Martin Ødegaard (23/24 Arsenal) | Bruno Fernandes (22/23 United) | Bruno Fernandes (23/24 United) |
| Passes Completed | 40.7 | 37.5 | 42.1 | 39.2 |
| Passing Accuracy | 83.96 | 85.12% | 77.59% | 77.74% |
Bruno gets on the ball quite a bit, last season making more passes on average than Odegaard, however he's more careless in possession.
I'd argue the comparison between Havertz and Mount is more difficult as they played different positions at Chelsea and this season Havertz has played in other positions at times and Mount hasn't had many minutes, and where they have, it's largely been from the bench.
I personally think Mount is more of a natural fit into a team playing two 10s but stylistically, with two attacking no.8s/10s then Rice or last season's Partey are better options as a sole DM. Equally, I think Odegaard is a better fit for the system than Bruno.
But Odegaard and Havertz doesn't work.
Now in Feb it seems the picture is bit clearer.
Odegaard Havertz Rice works against teams not in top6. For big games its Odegaard Jorginho Rice.
Also our first choice was Mount. Once he decided to move to Utd we moved to Havertz. So yes I can see Mount in this system probably even better than Havertz. Casemiro maybe. But Bruno surely not.
And mind you is still work in progress. City midfield is a better example currently but the answer there is even clearer RODRI
Odegaard Havertz Rice works against teams not in top6. For big games its Odegaard Jorginho Rice.
Also our first choice was Mount. Once he decided to move to Utd we moved to Havertz. So yes I can see Mount in this system probably even better than Havertz. Casemiro maybe. But Bruno surely not.
And mind you is still work in progress. City midfield is a better example currently but the answer there is even clearer RODRI
Havertz works?!
A- Rice is a beast. He tops the EPL list in terms of interceptions and distance covered. That's why I wanted him last season
B- Rice is 6ft1 while Harvertz is 6ft4. There's plenty of inches and physicality there. The lack of height is one of the reasons why we insist on McT. You can look hipster by having a tiny CB in defense but ultimately the height needs to come from somewhere
C- Inverted FBs and CBs capable to play a high line. Arsenal has them, we don't.
B- Rice is 6ft1 while Harvertz is 6ft4. There's plenty of inches and physicality there. The lack of height is one of the reasons why we insist on McT. You can look hipster by having a tiny CB in defense but ultimately the height needs to come from somewhere
C- Inverted FBs and CBs capable to play a high line. Arsenal has them, we don't.
A- Casemiro is a beast as well, he was just injured for long spells.
C- We have FBs capable of playing inverted and CBs suited for a high line. Again, our two best defenders are injured most of the season.
D- Casemiro-Bruno-Mount can't work if Mount is never available.
Most of all it's the inconsistency due to injuries that hindered us this season. Otherwise we'd have made this midfield work a long time ago. At least it gave Mainoo the chance to shine.
But the injuries are a real problem. Even last season, whenever he had a consistend starting eleven we were really good. We have to take a serious look in the summer on which starting players we can rely on for a whole season, which players should rather be quality back-ups and which players should go.
This and that the core of Rice, Saliba and Odegaard are just top class players that we don't have.
A- Compared to Rice he is not (distance covered and interceptions). Casemiro is 31 and had his wear and tear. He certainly was a WC DM and can still do the job in the right system but not with 2 no 10s
C- Shaw is injury prone, dalot is not good enough, awb is not suited for that game and Malacia is slowly becoming a myth.
Any midfield with Bruno in it wont be able to play possession based football.
He is a mind blowing final ball player but he is not a possession based player.
We have a similar player (although many levels below so not comparing quality wise) in Viera who causes similar issues.
Also if atleast one winger can also play as playmaker when required helps greatly.
Bruno could work well with most. Mount was a terrible purchase we’re going to keep trying to shoehorn into the team until we accept that he’s just not very good
The main difference between the Arsenal trio and our hypothetical one (aside from the fact ours is hypothetical) is that all of theirs can dribble.
Higher-energy press, higher defensive line, Declan Rice.
Odegaard is just a brilliant player and Rice behind compliments them. Building a team is always about putting all the components together. Signing Casemiro was our first step towards building a midfield but he’s old in terms of mileage, we need a younger version to complement Mainoo and then we need an Odegaard. Then we would have a balanced midfield capable of controlling games.
Amazing how so many of our Fans have it in for Bruno. Our core has been pathetically weak for far too long. Plus our Manager has been found wanting. Stick Odegaard in our minefield sorry midfield and he’d be found wanting. Rice has helped them loads but he was meant to be the final piece of the jigsaw at Arsenal. Taken them years to get there. We are a big work in progress. When we have a functioning defence our midfield looks so much better funny that? why we spent £50-60m on a Luxury player ala Mount is beyond me? we could have bought a very good CH for that money. Our money management / squad building in the summer was criminal. Evan’s on a free to solve our central defence is shocking. Thankfully our new management will address these issues come the summer rather than spending loads of money and hoping for the best.
Basically it only works for Arsenal against teams they are easily better than anyway and only because they don't have an ongoing injury crisis, and also have a far stronger and more settled team than United.
It isn't going to work for United with Mount and Bruno because it leaves Casemiro with too much to do, and "top 6" opponent for you also currently translates as "anyone not potential relegation fodder" for us.
We can make a better fist of it with Mainoo because he's actually comfortable playing on the half turn so doesn't have to constantly be 40 yards ahead of Casemiro, but even then you saw against Villa, as soon as there's a weak spot (I.e. when Shaw went off) its FAR too easy for them to get through and target it.
£105m Rice helps.
Viera is perfect for possession based football. But probably isn't suited to the premier leagues physicality
It's the full backs stepping into midfield so you're basically playing a WM formation of old.
In possession Arsenal have Zinchenko stepping into midfield, City have Stones, Liverpool have Trent.
Shaw is best utilised on overlapping runs and Dalot has only recently started adding that to his game. It's also the same time that results have improved and Dalots performances have improved along with them.
In possession Arsenal have Zinchenko stepping into midfield, City have Stones, Liverpool have Trent.
Shaw is best utilised on overlapping runs and Dalot has only recently started adding that to his game. It's also the same time that results have improved and Dalots performances have improved along with them.
They can work. Problem is that our wingers need to be better defending so we don’t have central midfielders doing wingers job. With defending it is not just what you do defensivly in our half. It is also about pressing and working together higher up.
Arsenal is all about using attackers as first defenders. So they are doing a pretty good job there. When they don’t work or produce that team falls apart because rest are pretty much average players.