You said it was a fact that he had been poor so far, but it is not at all.
Whether he is VFM is a completely different question, I think we overpaid but only time will tell on that.
How would you use Fellaini?
- Thread starter Walters_19_MuFc
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You said it was a fact that he had been poor so far, but it is not at all.
Whether he is VFM is a completely different question, I think we overpaid but only time will tell on that.
I assumed people would realise an adjective is subjective, meaning "good" is feck all... "Good" only means something, when it's good compares with ".." for example, hence when I said he has been poor so far, I thought people would realise I meant in regards to the fact he is our club record signing, so apologies I didn't put that in.
VFM? Sorry
Not sure what it means..People reading too much into the price again. Price rarely accurately reflects a players relative ability - it's a function of supply and demand. Everton knew we needed a CM and could basically charge what they want - he's also far more important to Everton than he is to us since they can't sign a player of his quality to replace him without getting lucky.
What we should be concerned about is whether he will be a good player for this club or not. When we turn over 400 m a year who cares about a few extra mil, no reason to hold a grudge to the death against one of our own players like.
Moyes in the interview I'm posting says he gives us options in different games. What people don't seem to understand, bafflingly, is that we rotate heavily and play different tactics in a lot of different games. Doesn't matter where we 'would play Fellaini', whatever that means, important thing is he can play lots of different roles well and, sometimes, we will be left on the bench too because we don't need a player like him. Like him or hate two things are true 1) nobody cares about the few extra million that we paid because it was deadline day and 2) he gives us options and strengths that we did not have before, which is a good thing
Anyone hopefully Moyes first interview (towards middle of vid) will clear up the most important thing - how Moyes intends to use him
What we should be concerned about is whether he will be a good player for this club or not. When we turn over 400 m a year who cares about a few extra mil, no reason to hold a grudge to the death against one of our own players like.
Moyes in the interview I'm posting says he gives us options in different games. What people don't seem to understand, bafflingly, is that we rotate heavily and play different tactics in a lot of different games. Doesn't matter where we 'would play Fellaini', whatever that means, important thing is he can play lots of different roles well and, sometimes, we will be left on the bench too because we don't need a player like him. Like him or hate two things are true 1) nobody cares about the few extra million that we paid because it was deadline day and 2) he gives us options and strengths that we did not have before, which is a good thing
Anyone hopefully Moyes first interview (towards middle of vid) will clear up the most important thing - how Moyes intends to use him
His release clause was 23m only a few weeks before we signed him and even that was considered a bit steep by most here at the time. There's no getting away from the fact that we overpaid, no matter how well he actually does. It was an unbelievably stupid deal on our part.
It was unfair to ever expect him to be VFM at that price, he just isn't capable of justifying that kind of fee. Expecting/hoping he'll manage it with time just increases the pressure on him really, it's never going to happen.
In reality he's a 15m - 20m player and that's all we should really expect from him. If he plays to that level then I'll be happy enough, but it's really time to forget about the inflated fee we shelled out.
I assumed people would realise an adjective is subjective, meaning "good" is feck all... "Good" only means something, when it's good compares with ".." for example, hence when I said he has been poor so far, I thought people would realise I meant in regards to the fact he is our club record signing, so apologies I didn't put that in.
VFM? Sorry
Value For Money - to me it is a completely different question to how good or bad a player is playing (which obviously can only be relative to other players)
You dont even know what his wages are so in fact the question of VFM is meaningless - transfer fees are only half the story nowadays so it is a bit stupid to focus on them so much.
Granted, good point made in your second paragraph about wages, that I'm speculating on, but I'm assuming it's an average squad member, he still comes with the tag of our most expensive signing ever, and he will be judged accordingly.
Do I think it's unfair? Yes, he never asked for such a price, and had DM/whoever (Don't want to open up a can of worms) sorted it out and we paid his release clause, I'd imagine most then would feel he has done better (for the simple fact the outlay was less, so the expectancy must be less).
Fully acknowledge that, however the simple fact is, he cost X, and will be judged according to X.
If you bought two products at a store, perhaps one value range, one finest, would you expect the same quality from both? Perhaps it's not fair that the finest is slapped with a higher price rate, but bottom line is, it is more expensive, generally speaking, I'd expect more from something costing more.
Players are less like perfectly competitive goods you'd buy in a shop and more like buying houses or something. It depends heavily on the market, on how desperate the person is to sell, on things like the prestige of a certain player, on utility. You could argue that, on the final day of the transfer deadline, with uncertainty over whether fletch will play again, our utility of bringing in a CM goes through the roof since we are low on options and this is our last chance. On the other side of the coin, for a team like Everton who can't replace Fellaini with a player of the same quality, that puts a premium on the player. My parents got held to ransom over buying my family home about ten years ago I remember, because it was a situation where they were renting and houses were in hot demand, meaning that if you put it off you had to wait months for a new opportunity in which time house prices go up again. Yes, Woody got held to ransom over a few million for the Felli deal, but he made a decision that having Felli in the team this year was better than waiting until next summer to fill the gap in the squad. Lots of stuff in play here, and since we can afford it (ie. the Glazers might end up using this spare money to pay dividends in the end), Moyes making the signing being held a few million to ransom might end up being the right deal
Yes Value for Money is a different thing altogether. It's nice when you get value for money obviously, but sometimes it should take a back seat. People have been trying to hold united to ransom for years, Everton and Spurs are two clubs that are excellent at getting good fees for their players. Look at Lescott for 23m 5 years ago. Torres for 50m. Bale for 90m. Its a tough market place and sometimes you have to forget about value for money to get the players that are available
@Crashoutcassius
Good post, and although I agree with all your points, how do you judge a signing then? Would you judge them all from an equal basis? Meaning Torres wasn't that bad a buy as he's putting in goals now... I do understand about a player's transfer fee not necessarily being their "value", I just think 99% WILL use it as stick to measure them with unfortunately, or fortunately.
Good post, and although I agree with all your points, how do you judge a signing then? Would you judge them all from an equal basis? Meaning Torres wasn't that bad a buy as he's putting in goals now... I do understand about a player's transfer fee not necessarily being their "value", I just think 99% WILL use it as stick to measure them with unfortunately, or fortunately.
Never thought that we hired jesus as coach
If Fellaini has a good game, his price tag is the last thing on my mind. His performances matter, not a price tag which is of no real concern to us.
Anyway, I voted box-to-box. He can be a bit of all-rounder but with a heavy focus on the defensive side of the game. Ideally, we'd partner him with a player in the mould of Gundogan or Kroos.
Anyway, I voted box-to-box. He can be a bit of all-rounder but with a heavy focus on the defensive side of the game. Ideally, we'd partner him with a player in the mould of Gundogan or Kroos.
On the day he signed I said fecking hell 27m, mucho dinero. I just can't believe that some people are still going on about it in March. Fair enough if people say at the time 'yeah we over paid', just as long as people understand that it happens all the time, and that saying 'he'll never be a 27.5m pound player' is just pointless because nobody ever said he would be, Moyes said he would be a good player for us, whatever price woody negotiated doesn't affect if he's a good player or not. But like I said it's nice to get a bargain, we'll probably get some good bargains in Moyes tenure and I'll take pleasure in that then
I voted box to box - midfielders need to be prepared to get involved in both parts of the game - attacking and defending
our lack of goals from midfield is simply awful though...is this a tactical thing? Im not so sure.... Carrick for example should be scoring 5-10 goals a season with his quality
our lack of goals from midfield is simply awful though...is this a tactical thing? Im not so sure.... Carrick for example should be scoring 5-10 goals a season with his quality
Going forward, we should look to have him as a ball winning midfielder with the awarness to dispatch the ball to a more creative player.
Presently, if he can fulfill the requirements of any sort of a box to box - power to him. I juat hope he can build on his last two performances and justify the pricetag.
Presently, if he can fulfill the requirements of any sort of a box to box - power to him. I juat hope he can build on his last two performances and justify the pricetag.
I think we'll see the best of him as a jack of all trades squad player. He'll step in and out of the team depending on the opposition and his role will change depending on who is next to him. He isn't really good enough to hold down a first team place as either a DM or BTBM, at least not in a real top quality midfield.
If I had to choose between him as a DM or BTBM though I'd go with the latter. I've always thought his defensive qualities were overrated while his technical and attacking attributes were somewhat underrated.
If I had to choose between him as a DM or BTBM though I'd go with the latter. I've always thought his defensive qualities were overrated while his technical and attacking attributes were somewhat underrated.
He falls a bit short in every role possible really. The only role I can imagine him doing at a world-class level would be as a lone destroyer midfielder.
Who drops down in to the defense in the offense to allow the full-backs to roam completely free offensively(Think two Alaba's making runs not just up and down).
In the defense he should be in between the defensive line and the midfield line - centrally. That way we'd direct our opponents out wide and Fellaini and the two CB's would become a great physical force centrally.
I think this would allow him to be his brute self defensively and offensively he'd use his passing range from the defense and anticipation to avoid counters.
Even in this role he is completely untested, but in all tested roles I've seen him in I've ended up consider him incapable of playing against the best teams successfully.
Who drops down in to the defense in the offense to allow the full-backs to roam completely free offensively(Think two Alaba's making runs not just up and down).
In the defense he should be in between the defensive line and the midfield line - centrally. That way we'd direct our opponents out wide and Fellaini and the two CB's would become a great physical force centrally.
I think this would allow him to be his brute self defensively and offensively he'd use his passing range from the defense and anticipation to avoid counters.
Even in this role he is completely untested, but in all tested roles I've seen him in I've ended up consider him incapable of playing against the best teams successfully.
what do you expect? people are still going on about how much Ozil cost.
Fellaini is good defensively, just in a certain way.
He doesn't have the positioning of someone like Busquets or Carrick which is why I don't feel a holding role really suits him. But what he can do is close down and win possession with tackles, the way someone like Fletcher did. It's still an asset defensively just one suited more to a box to box role rather than a sitting/holding midfielder. He currently lacks the defensive intelligence to play that role.. Could develop it in the future mind.
I don't really like the idea of having a holding midfielder and someone as limited offensively as Fellaini alongside him in the box to box role. I just don't think that kind of setup is conductive to attacking football at all.
Lots of teams play double pivots, without a box to box player. So I'm not sure why you think it is so defensive.
A holding midfielder can still contribute offensively, they just do it from deeper positions. It doesn't necessarily mean a limited defensive player like Makelele.
Examples of good sides with a more defensive minded midfield two than Carrick/Fellaini? You don't necessarily need a box to box player I agree but you do need some creativity from your midfield two whether that's from driving runs like Toure or Vidal or the passing of a Modric, Alonso or Xavi. Fellaini isn't creative at all and Carrick is kind of creative but he's quite a lot less creative than the players I just listed. I think Carrick should clearly be the less creative player in a midfield two or at least have someone equal for any partnership with him to be effective.
Even the most defensive combos like say Alonso/Khedira (not that they play it at the moment) or Bender/Gundogan are both a lot more creative than playing Carrick/Khedira.
The only real example I can think of is Spain's Alonso/Busquets but Spain are just a law unto themselves tactically so you can't compare them at all to how we play football.
Good post.
The fee does become irrelevant in a lot of cases, I feel the bad taste left in many fans mouths was missing the buyout clause then paying the extra for him on transfer deadline day. Yes the fee seems bloated but the biggest outlay in modern football is wages, Rooney picking up a reported 300 grand a week soon gulfs Fellainis transfer fee a few years down the line but if Fellaini is picking up say 100 grand then the fee does become a lot less of a worry. You can get in a brilliant player like RVP for a bargain 20m but if hes picking up in excess of 200 grand a week it soon becomes a massive outlay. Does anyone know what is Fellaini reported to be on wage wise ?
Nah I think you're talking nonsense there, mate.
As I said double pivots are extremely common with solely sitting players who don't get forward the way Fellaini does. Seems to me you've just latched onto the idea that he doesn't play creative passes and then decided he's a defensive player based off that - which isn't true.
You mention in your post that runs from midfield contribute offensively, so no idea why you're ignoring it for Fellaini when its clear that he provides that attacking threat. He should have scored at the weekend after a burst forward from deep and is just as offensive as someone like Khedira.
Carrick is someone who controls the tempo of the game and it seems clear to me that with Fellaini in the side we would need a player like that, if we replace Carrick it needs to be someone with passing ability. Those players contribute offensively themselves, which you know because you cite Alonso as someone creative.
I think the issue you have here is with the calibre of player as opposed to their actual role and style. A deep playmaker like Carrick and a physical, box to box player like Fellaini is offensive for a two man midfield. You obviously just rate Fellaini differently to myself and others - as far as I'm concerned he will be asset attacking wise and we've already seen glimpses of that since his return from injury.
In terms of current defensive midfields - Ramires/Matic and Schweinsteiger/Martinez are recent examples of great teams playing that way. If you want to go further back and look a some of the great sides, you'll find they are absolutely littered with midfields more defensive than Carrick/Fellaini. I'm really surprised this is even being brought up as a serious comment - it isn't particularly defensive at all.
@Stack @Lu Tze
I probably made a mistake not acknowledging the fact that this could have been Fellaini's job. However, the fact that he's playing the way he is means that he's playing more to his strengths than his weaknesses. One can defend like Fellaini does whilst ensuring that no gaps open up. This is what players like Fletcher (of the past), Keane, Butt, Vieira, Petit, Gilberto Silva, Gattuso, Makelele, Essien, etc., have done in their careers. This is what the likes of Lucas Leiva, de Rossi, Sven Bender, Busquets, Martinez, Schweinsteiger, etc., do. Can Fellaini hassle players whilst making sure that the opposition are unable to exploit gaps left by these players? No. In this case, he can be as good as the likes of Inler, Ramires, Matic, Witsel, etc. are.
This is why I said that he can't be a defensive midfielder. A defensive midfielder must prevent gaps from opening. Fellaini's qualities are perfectly suited to a box-to-box midfielder, hence why I said in my original post that he needs someone who can complement him instead of him being Carrick's replacement.
I probably made a mistake not acknowledging the fact that this could have been Fellaini's job. However, the fact that he's playing the way he is means that he's playing more to his strengths than his weaknesses. One can defend like Fellaini does whilst ensuring that no gaps open up. This is what players like Fletcher (of the past), Keane, Butt, Vieira, Petit, Gilberto Silva, Gattuso, Makelele, Essien, etc., have done in their careers. This is what the likes of Lucas Leiva, de Rossi, Sven Bender, Busquets, Martinez, Schweinsteiger, etc., do. Can Fellaini hassle players whilst making sure that the opposition are unable to exploit gaps left by these players? No. In this case, he can be as good as the likes of Inler, Ramires, Matic, Witsel, etc. are.
This is why I said that he can't be a defensive midfielder. A defensive midfielder must prevent gaps from opening. Fellaini's qualities are perfectly suited to a box-to-box midfielder, hence why I said in my original post that he needs someone who can complement him instead of him being Carrick's replacement.
He's a bloody huge unit...so i'd have him help carry in the kit basket!
Has the megastore joke been done yet?
We could just use him as a battering ram, and batter the other team off the pitch.
Defensive mid, but with license to go forward on corner kicks.
The just isn't suited to United but he's on the squad so there's no use crying about it any longer, so use him against carefully selected opponents but let's strengthen our central midfield with at least two new players.
The just isn't suited to United but he's on the squad so there's no use crying about it any longer, so use him against carefully selected opponents but let's strengthen our central midfield with at least two new players.
Box to box midfielder
Doesn't have the positional discipline to regularly play DM, but for me has everything required to prepare him for becoming a very good box to box especially when played alongside an equally aggressive but more positionally sound DM type player. He is essentially a ball winning CM as things stand who should become a very good box to box for us over the next season and a half.
I'd play the same team & formation we used when RVP was subbed against West Brom. Fellaini seemed to rotate with Mata on the right quite a bit, so i'd stick with that set-up. We played much better when RVP was off; Rooney was up top & Welbeck was all over the last 3rd, with Mata pulling the strings & Fellaini breaking up play...
Where is the "towing a cart" option?
Today I would use him by knocking Suarez's teeth out.