When the Glazers have left and we’re being run as a football club?
Truth is we will never know if he was right as he’ll go long before they do
Truth is we will never know if he was right as he’ll go long before they do
How much time is enough time to gauge Ole?
- Thread starter beingshe7don
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I’m all for giving the manager time to build the squad in his image. BUT this would only be fair if there’s some evidence that we’re building towards something and a particular playing style. I’m just not seeing that with Ole right now.
Sure there are some things that are outside of the manager’s control. But there’s also a lot of things that he can control. He banged on about the fitness not being there last season and I’ve not seen any improvements made in that area. He wanted to implement a high press style of football and bar our few pre-season games, I’ve seen no evidence of that carrying into the season. Yes we have a paper thin squad and, you can argue to what extent Ole is responsible for that, but these are things that we should be expecting from the manager.
We can give him all the time and money in the world but from what I’ve seen this season and the tail end of last season, there’s no proof that he’s capable of building any team into a winning side. And that’s my biggest concern with sticking with Ole for the sake of giving the manager time.
Sure there are some things that are outside of the manager’s control. But there’s also a lot of things that he can control. He banged on about the fitness not being there last season and I’ve not seen any improvements made in that area. He wanted to implement a high press style of football and bar our few pre-season games, I’ve seen no evidence of that carrying into the season. Yes we have a paper thin squad and, you can argue to what extent Ole is responsible for that, but these are things that we should be expecting from the manager.
We can give him all the time and money in the world but from what I’ve seen this season and the tail end of last season, there’s no proof that he’s capable of building any team into a winning side. And that’s my biggest concern with sticking with Ole for the sake of giving the manager time.
Sorry plastic fans, this process will take some time. You might as well start following Liverpool or City, or some other club that are doing well right now.
Ole is doing the hard dirty work of getting the deadwood out. Since our owners are penny pinchers, focusing mostly on economical results, he has to let half the squad go, to get new players in. If Ole had been thinking about himself, he wouldn't have got rid of so many players at once. But this is the fastest way to rebuild, and get us back to were we belong.
That means that this season will be crap. Like it or not. When some of our best players get injured, smaller clubs will have a much better starting xi than us.
The next season, and the season after that, when we are getting in some new midfield and attacking players, we will see the results. Ole will make us play high pressing attack football.
Our true supporters understand this, and supports Ole and the team thru this difficult transition.
Thank you for doing this job Ole!
Ole is doing the hard dirty work of getting the deadwood out. Since our owners are penny pinchers, focusing mostly on economical results, he has to let half the squad go, to get new players in. If Ole had been thinking about himself, he wouldn't have got rid of so many players at once. But this is the fastest way to rebuild, and get us back to were we belong.
That means that this season will be crap. Like it or not. When some of our best players get injured, smaller clubs will have a much better starting xi than us.
The next season, and the season after that, when we are getting in some new midfield and attacking players, we will see the results. Ole will make us play high pressing attack football.
Our true supporters understand this, and supports Ole and the team thru this difficult transition.
Thank you for doing this job Ole!
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True. I think you can put DeGea, Maguire and Pogba in that bracket.(Pallister, Bruce etc) We need two or three more signings though and AWB and Martial are not far away.
Worst case scenario? If he lose the next 10 games.
Realistically? His performance after we signed Haland, Sancho, Odegaard, Longstaff, or whatever.
Realistically? His performance after we signed Haland, Sancho, Odegaard, Longstaff, or whatever.
That's exactly how I feel too. He has kept true to his word in clearing some players out and I think it will continue. If we can bring 1 or 2 in during Jan and lose maybe 1 or 2 of those you listed then even better. The next summer will have to be a serious spend to fix our midfield and attacking options, we really need an upgrade and proven goals.
Woodward created the mess we are in. Jumping from manager to manager without any coherent planning, or even any form of continuity between the managers has seen us waste 900 million quid. That's poor management from the top, plain and simple.
We need to blood some youth this season and do what we can. If we can add a goal scorer up top, someone for RW and 1 or 2 in the middle then we will be a proper team again.
For all those who like to harp on about us being Manchester United and winning being the be all and end all, the club went 26 years without a title and was relegated during that time. Football did not start in 1992. We need to have a process in place and follow it. I think despite the recent results we are on the right path, and we are heading in the right direction. Even if Ole is to get the chop, the squad will be in far better shape for the next manager than what he inherited.
1. Look at our players quality. The dross is mid to lower table quality. I mean, you cannot expect Mctominay, Matic, Pereira, Mata, Lingard, Fred, James that actually starts plenty of games for us to carry us into top 4. That is just wishful thinking.
The solution to this problem would to be to change our recruitment proceedings which is one of the most discussed topics in here. How/when/how we still haven’t figured out.
2. It is still possible to compete (e.g win games as we do not do at the moment) with a “worse” squad than the opponents if you are tactically better. This is seen all the time, all over the world, in all leagues.
To become tactically better falls with the manager and his coaching staff. This does not happen over night. Although, if the tactical decisions and directions are well fit with the team you will be able to see steady improvements up to a certain point (where quality overtakes). This improvement has not been seen with Ole and he is 9 months in. The conclusion would therefore be that his tactics does not work with Man Utd. I have nothing at all against him but how much time should we give a manager that doesn’t improve us?
The solution to this problem would to be to change our recruitment proceedings which is one of the most discussed topics in here. How/when/how we still haven’t figured out.
2. It is still possible to compete (e.g win games as we do not do at the moment) with a “worse” squad than the opponents if you are tactically better. This is seen all the time, all over the world, in all leagues.
To become tactically better falls with the manager and his coaching staff. This does not happen over night. Although, if the tactical decisions and directions are well fit with the team you will be able to see steady improvements up to a certain point (where quality overtakes). This improvement has not been seen with Ole and he is 9 months in. The conclusion would therefore be that his tactics does not work with Man Utd. I have nothing at all against him but how much time should we give a manager that doesn’t improve us?
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I'm happy to give Ole to the end of the season, a kind of extended interim, and then go for Pochettino if we can get him, with substantial and long term backing. Even if Ole does bring in some talent in the next window, we're going to need star power at some point, and I have to question whether Ole can pull that off, aside from the other questions.
Deadwood are players that do not contribute whatsoever to the team's progress.
The only two players Ole has gotten rid of that constitute 'deadwood' are Darmian and Sanchez, and the latter is coming back next summer anyway for his 400k a week. Smalling, before our new signing, was our best CB in my opinion but that's up for debate I accept - either way, if he is deadwood than what is Jones, Rojo or Bailly considered to be? They are all still here.
Lukaku contributed 20 goals and about 12 goals last season, that is not deadwood when it isn't replaced.
Herrera was our second best midfielder who played crucial parts in crucial games during his career here, not deadwood.
Fellaini saved our skin numerous times with last ditch goals, okay he isn't the sort of player we wanted here and we're all glad he's gone but if he's considered to be deadwood, then what does that make guys Like Matic, Fred, Pereira and McTominnay who are all still here playing every week?
The deadwood thing is actually a bit of a myth, especially when you bear in mind the high likelihood that Pogba will leave next summer. Is he deadwood as well, then?
Mata, Young, Lingard, Rojo, Matic, Jones, Pereira. Those are players that are regularly getting game-time for United STILL this season and those are players that do not contribute a thing - THESE are deadwood.
Personally I would give him a full season, give him funds in January to hopefully go and buy a striker and a CM and then see where we are come the summer.
If by the summer you can tell we have a plan, a style, an identity and have either sneaked into the top 4 or won the Europa to get back in the UCL then let him crack on in the summer and into next season.
If we haven't done any of the above come the end of the season then the time might be right to replace him with a Poch/Algeri/Tuncel or whoever.
If by the summer you can tell we have a plan, a style, an identity and have either sneaked into the top 4 or won the Europa to get back in the UCL then let him crack on in the summer and into next season.
If we haven't done any of the above come the end of the season then the time might be right to replace him with a Poch/Algeri/Tuncel or whoever.
I'm not Ole out, but we're approaching 7 years, it'll be 10 by the time this so called rebuild is complete. They should have backed Ole more so we can at least get CL to attract the very best players next season. Which will ultimately make our rebuild an easier transition. You cant call people plastic for not nodding their head like that Churchill dog and accepting the BS that's been happening since 2013!
100% spot on
Bit harsh on McTominay, he has given everything and is probably the only player who has stepped up this season, trying to drag a woeful midfield through games on his own when he is still pretty much in his breakthrough period himself, deserves praise for his attitude and stepping up not slagging off.
Yep. We have to be open to all options. Id add an extra factor of are we clearly building a system. Like when klopp arrived.
He got the style and attack sorted first then added the defence. We're sort of doing it in reverse which has the massive downside of us not having enough goals to get us out of messes.
Yeah it will take time, it does worry me that when I watch United it has pretty difficult to see what our style is and how we are trying to play, the fact that we seem very clueless/toothless up front and we don't seem to have improved from last year.
Hoping a couple of additions in January and we will look like we are moving forward, he does need results to pick up sooner rather than later though or he could be gone.
Let’s just hope we don’t do a Spurs tonight against the mighty Rochdale or this place will be in meltdown.
I’m going for a resounding 1 - 0 win for Utd.
I’m going for a resounding 1 - 0 win for Utd.
SAF put in all that hard work to ensure Man United wouldn't have to go another 26 years without silverware, he made us an untouchable juggernaut. Only for the board and new CEO to complete destroy everything he created and take us back to 1986 again, or even the 70's when we were at our worst. We're not at that stage anymore to accept countless years in the wilderness, the club is too big, the expectations are too high, we've had several GOAT's grace the OT pitch for the last 50+ years. If this was 2013 I'd say be patient but its becoming ridiculous now, we made next to zero progress since then. Why is it a 10+ year project for us? But everyone else seems to get themselves back challenging in less than half that time, and none of those clubs have the same resources and financial clout that we do..
Yeah it is, I have nowt against him. Fellaini actually contributed more though in terms of winning football matches which is the epitomy of what we are trying to do - Fellaini tried his best every game too, remember. Scott has a place here, I'm not saying that.
Yeah thats cool mate, I use to think he wasn't good enough and he has totally changed my opinion of him, maybe not a 1st choice top class midfielder but as you say defo a place for him.
Yeah felt sorry for Fellani he just got hammered by everyone and without him we would have lost a lot of games, especially in Jose last 12/18 months.
Think you are missing something here fella. It’s about creating a dressing room. The right attitude and spirit. You know, the thing ALL of you where complaining about. Implementing everything else takes some time, and then finding the Rythm to execute takes even more time.
Good post Mancave! Refreshing in all of these chaos of knejerk posts.
I would much rather have Fellaini here right now than Matic, Fred or Mata and I'm someone that wanted rid of Fellaini in general. He actually offers something in terms of winning football matches, albeit winning ugly.
Getting rid of deadwood should have been forcing players like Herrera and Shaw into squad roles, replacing Young and Matic, say, on the bench. That's how you improve your team/squad - you take the weaker starting players such as Ander and Shaw, say, and upgrade them forcing them into being useful, solid squad players. Then you get rid of the current squad players.
We have to be patient. How long is patience? ...He should have incorporated a better squad. He didn't. That's the reality. We got rid of some but others escaped and were lucky. However, of course the glazers would buy into his philosophy as it costs them less - even if we spent big money on 2 player we are short of players and so what do we do? You need luck. Martial started the season decent and then gets injured. Pogbas missed games and now Rashford though he's not in the best of form but you need luck and so far we're not getting it. If we scored the pens we'd be in a better position but the reality is LOOK AT THE SQUAD. Just look at it. It's threadbare. Understand a lot of managers would be struggling at this point in time. We're relying on many kids and the big issue is goals. If we can turn that around then we will do better but if you've injuries then you see what's happening. Where you can't score more then one goal and find it hard to not concede one or more.
For most people it is about execution of a plan and the knowledge to how. For some it’s impossible to sit still for 10 seconds and making every excuse not to.
It's a shame but we have no other choice. We are lagging behind in the market and what people forget is when we strengthen, other clubs strengthen too. So it's not just a case of us spending. We have to do what we've failed to do for a good while - we have to scout better and be more aggressive/smarter in the market. The talk of 'value' don't really inspire me that the owners can recapture success they bought into but people need to just take it one game at a time while not being fooled just blaming the manager. Even if we go on a great run, we are incredibly short on players. Through mismanagement our squad has been decimated.
I want to see some direction, the results can come afterwards. unfortunately I see neither ATM
Sounds like Ole is getting 3 years judging by the press briefings from the club today. Jesus.
I want to see him given the chance to complete the midfield and forward line and play a string of matches at least.
I don't think he will if he doesn't meet minimum requirements. If we finish outside the top 6 this season, and season tickets are wavering, they'll pull the trigger as they have done before - they'll need SOMETHING to spin to the fans and sponsors to suggest that next season will be different. That's by default, the manager. If he finishes 6th or above, I can see them giving him another season though. But they won't back him in the summer, either - he'll get about £60m.
Mctominay is a good substitute midfielder to come in and replace the world class CDM every so often as an apprentice.
Matic cannot be the first teamer though as he is finished and due to obvious weaknesses everywhere else you cant afford to carry your anchorman midfielder.
We need 3 credible centre midfielders and we have 1. Pogba.
We should have bought Tierney, 2 CM's, a right winger and the best premier league striker.
That's what we have always done.
When Cole was the best premier league striker we bought him, then Yorke. We tried for Shearer, got RvN, RvP etc...
Now I would argue that there are 4 other clubs with better strikers than us.
Matic cannot be the first teamer though as he is finished and due to obvious weaknesses everywhere else you cant afford to carry your anchorman midfielder.
We need 3 credible centre midfielders and we have 1. Pogba.
We should have bought Tierney, 2 CM's, a right winger and the best premier league striker.
That's what we have always done.
When Cole was the best premier league striker we bought him, then Yorke. We tried for Shearer, got RvN, RvP etc...
Now I would argue that there are 4 other clubs with better strikers than us.
I think we will finish top 6 for sure. We arent that bad. The issue is a lot of people somehow feel we should get top 4. I think its going to be an interesting season. I think Liverpool Man City and Tottenham will finish top 4, i know spurs are in poor form but over the average of the season think they actually have too much quality. We might scrape into top 4, i think for 4th place its a case of who is least shit out of us arsenal and chelski or maybe a year of the underdog for a leicester west ham or bournemouth for 4th if they can keep up what they are doing.
Which in itself is mental when the manager himself told us last season that we were in for Hell trying to finish top 6. The standards were verbally confirmed then by the manager himself, so how on earth fans think we'd do any better than that is a bit mad.
I'm all for giving him at least 2 more transfer windows. Our abject performances in the past 6 years or so, and the dreadful state of our current squad have been down to awful recruitment.
Spending £100s of millions on players who have barely contributed. Ole has made only 3 signings so far and they have all been very positive. He might not be the greatest manager ever but change for changes sake seems pointless at this stage.
No matter who our manager is going forward though, they will fail without proper backing in the transfer market. Money wasted in the past is history and needs to be forgotten about. We are at least £300m worth of decent signings away from competing at the top level again. Without heavy spending, we will be treading water for many more years.
Spending £100s of millions on players who have barely contributed. Ole has made only 3 signings so far and they have all been very positive. He might not be the greatest manager ever but change for changes sake seems pointless at this stage.
No matter who our manager is going forward though, they will fail without proper backing in the transfer market. Money wasted in the past is history and needs to be forgotten about. We are at least £300m worth of decent signings away from competing at the top level again. Without heavy spending, we will be treading water for many more years.
Yeeeep, totally agree mate, 100%
Agree, however it’s going to be very difficult to attract the best when the club is not in CL football and worse not looking like it’s even going to challenge for qualification to the CL.
It’s hard to believe we had four top class strikers in the same squad back in 99, if us fans can remember how the squad was why can’t the board? Probably because Woodward doesn’t give a shit for the footballing side of things.
I detest that man, oh and of course the Glaziers.
This is absolutely where I stand too. Ole has not demonstrated any recognisable style of play for a club our size and it stands to reason that money and time will not automatically make him a tactical genius.
He was a manager that failed with Cardiff and managed in the Norwegian league. I don't like blind optimism but why are all the people who are saying give him time sure he will be a big success here. I guess it's because he is an ex-player of the club?
How many of the people willing to give him time would sanction our chase of the Midtjylland or Rosenborg Manager let alone allow them a leeway comparable with the last 20 games Ole has presided over? Answer is obviously no becuase we would all believe they are not fit to lead a club like ours and that is why I ask why anyone believes Ole is? He is simply an average and nothing manager if you exclude 'ex-legend' from his CV. The earlier we get rid, the better.
Normally I feel a manager given a rebuilding job deserves at least 4 windows so long as progress is being made. However the results over the last 18 games are alarming and maybe action is warranted.
Now is the time. He's 3 months away from completing a full year managing the team.
I would
We should not be satisfied with this, and we need not be. But don't blame Ole. Blame it on the owners and the CEO.
We should have had a brand strategy document describing how Manchester United should be and how we should play our football. This style should be implemented in the academy and on the main team (just like Ajax and Barca do). And when we hire a new manager, there should be someone who agrees to play accordingly. We should have had a technical director who focused on buying players according to our style. And who (equally important) got rid of the players who weren't good enough or the right players according to our desired style of play. And those players are what I call deadwood.
The owners have hired 3 managers with different styles, and got players that fit different styles, as well as making some really bad deals. Ole now has a big rebuilding job to do, because he does not have the right players to play high-pressure attacking football. He can't get rid of all the deadwood at once, but he's got rid of so many players that the owners have no choice but to invest properly. Then he will probably try to get rid of som more players.
The worst thing our owners could do now is to sac Ole and get a fifth manager.
As supporters, we should not blame Ole in this rebuilding process, but focus our anger on the owners and the CEO. Force them to invest properly and to hire a technical director. This summer, our net investment in players was peanuts, and they are to blame for our misery.
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Ole needs to be given a couple of seasons at least - Rome wasn’t built in a day and neither will this squad overhaul
Strap yourself in, it's going to be a bumpy ride.