very important. very, very important indeed. i think we should refrain from spending any money on established players and instead concentrate on scouting embryos that fit our style of play.
How important is it for us to avoid buying older players?
- Thread starter sullydnl
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With Jose it was a smart move with an older forward surrounded by a bunch of young attackers. Zlatan being a free agent was the cherry on top.
Let's just pray good ole Ralf left his list sitting around, and someone at the club is smart enough to use it. Still think it's insanity that we had him signed on in the role he's best at - a scouting consultant - and chose not to use it. Ridiculous.
The biggest mistake we can make (and which we have been making for the last 10 years) is to make the rebuild manager dependent. It should be as independent of manager as possible, like every other big club does (see Real who won 5 UCL in the last 10 years while changing many managers).
We should sign the right profile of (mostly) young players that fit EtH’s philosophy and style and he should coach them to make us competitive. If he fails, then we should sack him as soon as possible (which we always fail to do) and hire a manager with a similar philosophy, a manager that can instantly work with the players we have, not a manager that requires a new team. And do so forever. Like every other club does.
Otherwise, we just risk further compounding the problem and end with an even more Frankenstein squad and his signings will become the new deadwood (I remember the praise Maguire and AWB got at the beginning and Ole for signing them).
I was hoping for a change of approach after I we were said to have revamped our scouts and Murtough got in charge. Also Rangnick addressed this situation too he said we shouldn't be spending so much on players in their late twenties, not too long after we went and did it.
The Casemiro transfer has been a success but we will need to finish our rebuild before he becomes useless.
I think if you're a winning team, with winning DNA and style, then it makes sense signing young players to come in and learn about how to play that way from a young age.
If you're crap, with no winning pedigree (and we really don't have any these days) then you need to either get a worldie of a coach (Guardiola) to shape everything, or sign older winners to help shape the youngsters.
It's like (most) big business - it's hard to start from zero, and it'd be daft to anyway. Make use of the experience out there.
If you're crap, with no winning pedigree (and we really don't have any these days) then you need to either get a worldie of a coach (Guardiola) to shape everything, or sign older winners to help shape the youngsters.
It's like (most) big business - it's hard to start from zero, and it'd be daft to anyway. Make use of the experience out there.
Well researched and well presented point.
Been hoping for this for a while now. Our fans are not used to the manager being just a coach. If our scouts really discovered Enzo and Caicedo before their European moves I am starting to wonder if the managers have been turning down scout suggestions and are not as horrible at finding talent as we thought.
The best teams are made up of a mix of experienced players and younger players.
We should sign unique 30+ aged players when they are available like Eriksen and Casemiro along with planning long term by buying younger players under 26 years to complement young talent coming through.
We should not buy anyone over the age of 34, unless it is a one year contract or loan to fill a gap.
We should sign unique 30+ aged players when they are available like Eriksen and Casemiro along with planning long term by buying younger players under 26 years to complement young talent coming through.
We should not buy anyone over the age of 34, unless it is a one year contract or loan to fill a gap.
Indeed, it is not clear if our scouts are useless or if the manager overrules them, which makes them look useless. There are many indications for the latter. Maguire was blocked by our scouts (despite that Jose wanted him), then Gary Neville criticized Woody for doing so, and there was fan pressure. Ultimately, Ole wanted him too and we wasted 100m pounds on him when instead we should have sticked to our guns and block him again and tell the manager to feck off and mind his own business (coaching).
I also fail to believe that scouts couldn’t propose anything other than Malacia, Weghorst, Antony or Lisandro. They are clearly manager’s signing. Which in a world where the manager stays long is fine, but in current world, managers get replaced every 18 months or so and we risked again big time by listening to the manager (if things don’t go right, which most likely won’t, just based on probability).
The jury is still out on Antony due to his price tag, but Lisandro and Malacia were well worth their price tags. Weghorst is a stop gap loan player who was also worth the cost.
The manager should have a big say in transfers, but indeed a transfer should be blocked if deemed reckless or misguided.
Guardiola is not the one who shape everything. All his teams so far he inherited great players, and added his own magic on top. Henry, Eto'o, Xavi, Iniesta, Yaya Toure, Marquez, Puyol all established and top class. That's the whole spine. Inherited Treble winning Bayern. Inherited City with Aguero, KDB, David Silva, Fernandinho those would play an important role for his team the following few seasons. Kompany played. City overhaul is Pep's toughest challenge thus far (rich man issue), so he ended up first season empty handed.
Klopp is a better example of someone diving into a mess, and sorting thing out brilliantly. The thing is Klopp atill need recruitment teams at Dortmund, and Liverpool help him to assemble the squads. Liverpool case looks very well be a star aligning situation where it seems that they had Mida touch on all important and expensive signings. Now their rebuild is not going as smoothly, and they look to be very slow with their rebuild.
The Casemiro signing has been a success so far. But the risk inherent in that signing was always how long he'd last rather than whether he would be good in the short term.
If Casemiro drops off more suddenly than we expect over the next season or two then spending £60-70m (and massive wages) on a 30 year old DM starts to look a lot less successful.
the best teams always have a mix of both youth and experience to learn from, it's not so much about their age, it's about their attitude and professionalism, technically speaking, Ronaldo should have been an absolute win-win scenario for everybody involved, but his attitude and professionalism was worse than anyone could have predicted, his age was never the issue really
Utd are in a position now where they still need to sign quality first teamers ready to start straight away, particularly in midfield and up front (and arguably in goal). However they need to be bringing in the eventual replacements for Casemiro and Varane now. Ideally any starters would be of an age that they can meet in the middle with players that are brought in for eventual transition. We've been stuck in a perpetual cycle of filling big gaps in the first team which either haven't worked or have been shorter term fixes. Keep papering over the cracks and the holes will just keep reappearing, our current striker situation being the most obvious example of bad planning and getting in older players (Cavani and that other one) and the hole they've now left that has had to be hastily patched again.
Same with midfield, had to bring in Eriksen and Casemiro because the positions got neglected and they had no long-term plan. Those signings worked well, mostly, but Eriksen clearly doesn't have the legs for full games and a demanding schedule, and Casemiro has faded and looks off the pace, so I think it's reasonable to wonder how many seasons he has left as a default starter. None of the back up options in the squad should be here in a season or two either. So we're going to end up back at square one, again, due to poor planning and foresight. We should be looking at a succession plan there this summer, but with the FFP restrictions and a glaring hole at striker that needs to be filled how much resource can be committed?
Same with midfield, had to bring in Eriksen and Casemiro because the positions got neglected and they had no long-term plan. Those signings worked well, mostly, but Eriksen clearly doesn't have the legs for full games and a demanding schedule, and Casemiro has faded and looks off the pace, so I think it's reasonable to wonder how many seasons he has left as a default starter. None of the back up options in the squad should be here in a season or two either. So we're going to end up back at square one, again, due to poor planning and foresight. We should be looking at a succession plan there this summer, but with the FFP restrictions and a glaring hole at striker that needs to be filled how much resource can be committed?
All transfer would always carry some risk.
It's not like there are Ronaldo, Rooney that you can pick up and develop, but refuse to move to recruit them. You can very likely pick up Goetze, Martial, Canales, Phil Jones... that for one reason or another wouldn't amount to much after years of development.
You didn't count Giggs who was pretty much relevant as starting attacker in this season too.
https://www.transfermarkt.us/ryan-giggs/leistungsdaten/spieler/3406/saison/2007/plus/1
Leaving Saha who by then became permarock and left next summer, you still have Park JI Sung in his mid 20 to add to the math. It then looks older.
You're comparing Rooney Ronaldo that had the benefit of coming here younger and have few years to develop alongside seasoned pro like Giggs, RVN, Saha, Ole as attacking partners. Neville, Rio, Scholes who were seniors member of the squad. Then the leader like Vidic. That team was more stable than what had happened with all the managerial change Rashford and Martial experienced, and the team stuck in forever rebuild mode.
These players can't be comparable to the 2008 for sure. The situation is the same. Incomparable. The Rooney and Ronaldo of today may have joined another clubs already because even when we pay, we're not exactly in position to attract those players now.
The issue is that, looking at the Fergie era for obvious reference, he was never afraid to add older, established players where gaps in either personnel or potential were apparent.
The difficulty now is that it was pretty easy for him to do that as the rest of the squad was pretty settled and all were ‘his’ players. I think it’s going to be quite a while before we get to a similar situation, if ever.
But whilst we don’t have a bottomless pit of money, we need to be careful about player turnover, especially when it’s purely down to age, as replacing 4, 5, 6 players every year or two is unsustainable when trying to build a bigger and better squad too.
The difficulty now is that it was pretty easy for him to do that as the rest of the squad was pretty settled and all were ‘his’ players. I think it’s going to be quite a while before we get to a similar situation, if ever.
But whilst we don’t have a bottomless pit of money, we need to be careful about player turnover, especially when it’s purely down to age, as replacing 4, 5, 6 players every year or two is unsustainable when trying to build a bigger and better squad too.
I think that Malacia is just not that good player, and he isn’t that young. He is as bad as AWB in attack, and quite worse in defense.
I think Lisandro has many weaknesses in his game. On the other hand, he definitely brings some aspects that we lack (leadership and passing from defense). Nevertheless, I think his limitations will stop him from ever becoming a world class player, and IMO is closer to Heinze than Rio/Vidic. Good for now, but we should aim better.
Nevertheless, my point is a bit more general. The manager should not be in charge of transfers mostly cause in all likelihood, most of the time those players will be at the club will be under different managers. They might make recommendations but it should be limited to that. The football structure above the manager should bring the players they want and should not even need manager’s approval for the signings (or try to make manager happy by accepting their recommendation).
Depends on the player. If you ask me if i prefer 23 y.o Lingard vs 29 y.o Casemiro then the answer is Casemiro all day everyday.
Players like Casemiro and Varane not being at their peak much longer is an argument for a succession plan to be put in place for them, not to augment the team with another player about to hit their 30's which will need another succession plan pretty soon.
As has been said upthread expectations are a killer. This squad is wafer thin in some critical areas, when Varane and Casemiro hit the wall, it's gonna hurt because we have vital roles to fill yet, let alone plan for replacements.
Very!
If you look at the age profile of the squad, the likes of De Gea, Casemiro, Eriksen, Fred, Maguire, Varane, Weghorst, Sabitzer, Bruno and Lindelof are all regulars who are 27 or over right now. If you assume that United are 3 seasons away from seriously challenging for the PL or CL, that means all of those individuals will be past their peak by the time we want them to be hitting top form. The danger is that by the time we're ready to to compete for the top, it'll be time for another massive rebuild. It's like trying to run for a finishing line that keeps moving away from us.
The other big danger with the squad's age profile is obviously the financial one. We already have one of the most expensively assemble squads in the world. It's going to cost a bomb to rebuild it almost from scratch in 3 or 4 years' time. I think it's fair to say that only Licha, Rashford and Garnacho are nailed on to be of the requisite quality for the longer term. That's totally unsustainable.
Things look even worse when you compare us to Arsenal. All their key players are young and yet to hit their peak. Their group is only going to grow and get better, whereas ours already looks like it needs an injection of fresh blood. It's why I think Osimhen is a better choice than Kane, even though I think Kane is a better player who's lower risk.
There's a time and a place to buy veterans. Old Trafford in 2023 is not it!
| Player | Age |
|---|---|
| David de Gea | 32 |
| Casemiro | 31 |
| Christian Eriksen | 31 |
| Fred | 30 |
| Harry Maguire | 30 |
| Raphaël Varane | 30 |
| Wout Weghorst | 30 |
| Marcel Sabitzer | 29 |
| Bruno Fernandes | 28 |
| Victor Lindelöf | 28 |
| Anthony Martial | 27 |
| Luke Shaw | 27 |
| Donny van de Beek | 26 |
| Scott McTominay | 26 |
| Aaron Wan-Bissaka | 25 |
| Lisandro Martínez | 25 |
| Marcus Rashford | 25 |
| Diogo Dalot | 24 |
| Antony | 23 |
| Jadon Sancho | 23 |
| Tyrell Malacia | 23 |
| Anthony Elanga | 21 |
| Facundo Pellistri | 21 |
| Amad Diallo | 20 |
| Alejandro Garnacho | 18 |
| Kobbie Mainoo | 18 |
If you look at the age profile of the squad, the likes of De Gea, Casemiro, Eriksen, Fred, Maguire, Varane, Weghorst, Sabitzer, Bruno and Lindelof are all regulars who are 27 or over right now. If you assume that United are 3 seasons away from seriously challenging for the PL or CL, that means all of those individuals will be past their peak by the time we want them to be hitting top form. The danger is that by the time we're ready to to compete for the top, it'll be time for another massive rebuild. It's like trying to run for a finishing line that keeps moving away from us.
The other big danger with the squad's age profile is obviously the financial one. We already have one of the most expensively assemble squads in the world. It's going to cost a bomb to rebuild it almost from scratch in 3 or 4 years' time. I think it's fair to say that only Licha, Rashford and Garnacho are nailed on to be of the requisite quality for the longer term. That's totally unsustainable.
Things look even worse when you compare us to Arsenal. All their key players are young and yet to hit their peak. Their group is only going to grow and get better, whereas ours already looks like it needs an injection of fresh blood. It's why I think Osimhen is a better choice than Kane, even though I think Kane is a better player who's lower risk.
There's a time and a place to buy veterans. Old Trafford in 2023 is not it!
I don‘t quite agree on the quality of Martinez: he is world class. Both eye test and stats back that up. His progressive passing is instrumental for us.
Malacia cost us 15 mill, compare that to AWB. He was very good at Feyenoord in attack, hopefully he will show more of his qualities next season.
We can‘t trust our football structure because there wasn‘t one that was functional. With Ten Hag we have a manager that fits the club well and is turning around the decline.
I agree with the general sentiment regarding signing them young. Also it just makes practical sense from a money point of view. You sign Kane and you have to replace him in 3/4 years. You sign Sesko, you need to replace him in 10 or so years.
At the same time, however, Kane is more likely to be a success than Sesko is, with his proven track record in the Prem. An young flop is still a flop, and likely an expensive one at that.
The way we buy young talent, for sure it's expensive. I was thinking more along the lines of how Brighton buy young talent.
Are they homegrown embryos?
my grandad didn’t die in the battle for brexit for us to be buying foreign embryos.
We're not getting near a title with Harry Kane. Why do people think this?
Grand, as long as the embryo carrier lives within 3 feet of OT
All depends on the financial outlay.
Bringing in a few experienced players on a free or for relatively modest sums is maybe worth it, for the experience and immediate quality.
What you don't want to do is spend too much time and money on players over the 26/27 age, it takes 2-3 years to build a team to challenge consistently for a few years, ideally you want those players to be hitting their peak when that happens. So having too many players hitting 30 at the same time will not really allow for this.
Bringing in a few experienced players on a free or for relatively modest sums is maybe worth it, for the experience and immediate quality.
What you don't want to do is spend too much time and money on players over the 26/27 age, it takes 2-3 years to build a team to challenge consistently for a few years, ideally you want those players to be hitting their peak when that happens. So having too many players hitting 30 at the same time will not really allow for this.
if qatar takes over, i’m afraid she won’t get a choice.
He’s scored 20+ prem goals in 7 of the last 9 years, and 30+ overall in, likely, 5 of them. Goals win things.
Yeah it's repeated quite a lot in the Kane discussions that Case, Varane etc. won't be at their peaks for much longer so we should sign someone also in that age bracket to get the most of them now
What's important for us is getting people in charge who know what the feck they're doing in terms of identifying new players and offering those players contracts that make sense. Age has nothing to do with it. It can make great sense to buy an "older" player under the right circumstances.
We need quality players, no matter the age.
Depends on whether Sesko is successful. It's a gamble. Kane is a sure thing unless he gets a bad injury, which can happen to any player.
damn itNo one is a sure thing. Our track record with big money stars has been patchy. Berbatov comes to mind and that's the even before the shitshow after SAF.