How have Manchester United become a club full of people 'learning on the job'? | The Athletic

[#07]

I think the answer is Ronaldo and Oles belief that better players automatically = better football. Bit harder to play counter attack with an aging Ronaldo I reckon. Getting Varane and Sancho has also resulted in a bolder Ole and his suicidal 4-2-4 formation.

Thing about it is Portugal have an even more defensive manager than Ole and they play with Ronaldo as a long striker.

It'd be fine to play off of Ronaldo if you have Rashford and Sancho running off him. There was no reason for 424. Its insane.

Agreed. I think the problem was we couldn't beat teams who just sat back against us if we were set to constantly counter, but that's not to say we shouldn't be reverting to these tactics in games such as the one on Sunday. We can't control possession against literally anyone so not sure how we go toe to toe with the best teams in the league, or even anyone at this rate!

We should undoubtedly revert to a counter attacking system against City as it has worked numerous times, albeit usually better away from home, but gives us a fighting chance at least.

Weaker teams learned that they were most vulnerable against Ole's 4-2-4 (With Bruno right up it basically is) when they attacked us, and so a whole range of mid-table clubs and lower-half clubs started conceding possession and asking us to attack them with men behind the ball, leading to a recurring problem; Our inability to break them down, and our inability to prevent an effective counter-attack. And thus, about 70% of the games we now face teams who don't allow us to counter-attack.

This is why going back to it won't work, because most teams won't do what Leeds and Atalanta do.

An even more pressing point is this. We have to get away from the idea that we're a counter-attacking team or Pep is a possession team. If you're any one thing you're easy to counter. Pep's City can keep the ball and move it better than anyone, yet, look at their transitions when they win the ball. Their counter-attacking and ability to turn any situation into a 3-on-2 or 3-on-1 situation is excellent. Same with Liverpool. Able to play possession and counter equally. The point is that teams should be looking to be better at transitions in all positions of the field, and not focusing on being a counter-from-deep team specifically. It limits you.

Maybe? But is anyone doing that right now?

Nobody is scared of us. Aston Villa, Everton, Leicester etc. Nobody is sitting off us and saying okay come onto us. They're happy to just attack us. They can see the MASSIVE holes in our lines and are just waltzing into those areas without worrying about defending.

If anything we'd be doing much better if we were being compact against these sides. Right now we're setting up to address a problem we don't have, while ignoring the problem we do have.

 

[Norman Brownbutter]

It is boiled down to SAF really. Even as great as he was when the took our job, he needed time to learn on the job.

However, it's not gonna work with 99.99% the manager, especially the football world is very different now. You need a manager with huge huge potential, and if he's that good, he would have at least demonstrated it already at a decent level. The club is bigger now, and with higher demand now considering there is more competition and more is at stake. A few years of mediocrity would take as long if not longer to rectify as well as requiring costly investment. Now, good upcoming managers ain't going under radar that frequent and for so long.

The guy who won a European cup with Aberdeen needed learn on the Job??? The guy who took Scotland to the world cup after Jock Stein died, needed to learn on the job at United?

 

[Abraxas]

In a tin pot league and on road to double relegation stint at Cardiff. He was an absolute rookie at the job.

Of course, but he's not anymore. I can't really look at our current predicament and say it is due to experience and learning on the job.

If anything, he was holding it together when that was the case. This season he has all the experiences under his belt, the good the bad and the ugly. If he was to be appointed elsewhere he wouldn't be going there as a manager that's just gained his license. Also, Norway and Cardiff is still management, it's not as if every aspect to management here is unique.

It applies far more to people like Darren Fletcher. Maybe Carrick etc, but I think that aspect is over analysed and exaggerated in comparison to the manager.

 

[ti vu]

The guy who won a European cup with Aberdeen needed learn on the Job??? The guy who took Scotland to the world cup after Jock Stein died, needed to learn on the job at United?

Yes. As seen with him taking time to actually pull the club to the right direction.

SAF being grateful for what happened to him is himself the driving force for this giving time to the manager. His farewell speech embodies this idea.

And no. I am not supporting this, especially for someone like Ole.

 

[VP89]

I feel like the way our club is run is as big a reason to protest at OT as the super league was. The ESL just got more traction also because sky had motivated the audience to turn up and show their displeasure.

I wonder if MUST had actually discussed the lack of a proper footballing infrastructure with Glazers when they came.

 

[GregM40]

Maybe? But is anyone doing that right now?

Nobody is scared of us. Aston Villa, Everton, Leicester etc. Nobody is sitting off us and saying okay come onto us. They're happy to just attack us. They can see the MASSIVE holes in our lines and are just waltzing into those areas without worrying about defending.

If anything we'd be doing much better if we were being compact against these sides. Right now we're setting up to address a problem we don't have, while ignoring the problem we do have.

Fair point, absolutely everyone is giving us a game now. We'd probably be better off sitting deep and hitting on the counter for the rest of the season if Ole stays in charge, we have the players to do this. Doubtful we'd win anything but it probably won't get as embarrassing as it did on Sunday again.

 

[Oranges038]

These guys and the media in general must love how material they are able to generate of Utd.

They don't say anything that you can't read on here or any other football forum.

 

[SER19]

Love to know what Begiristain was doing at Barca when he got appointed, if not learning on the job, or Van Der Sar at Ajax, or Rummenigge at Bayern etc etc.

The Athletic are beginning to be the biggest trolls in modern football journalism, what with their obsession with poor Tifo videos and podcasts deliberately designed to ruffle the feathers of fans.

Very fair point. If VDS was here first he'd have been learning on the job. Likewise Zidane. Its a very unnuanced point they're making

 

[DickDastardly]

That's all good and everything.....but the world is just spinning way to fast, and if your not running ahead of the rest you're way behind.

We can't allow ourselves the benefit of finding another Ferguson, there is simply no time for that.
No time to give one person benefit of doubt for three + years.

The internet, the media, social networks....they're ripping us apart - and enjoying themselves at it.

You put Ole in 1986 and give him 4 years....you might get something.

You put an Aberdeen head coach on Uniteds bench in 2021 and he tells you to wait 4 years for a trophy....would you?

Didn't think so.

We need to move with the times.

 

[Garethw]

What is Mike Phelan's excuse then?

About ten years ago there was a thread on here entitled “What does Phelan actually do?” Or something like that. Fans thought he was useless back then, so I was surprised when people were seeing him as the second coming when he rejoined.

 

[Teja]

Actually, for me, the real question is: Why did Ole abandon his most successful, most well coached idea of counter attacking football.

This is the million dollar question, the one I want answered, the one the press aren't talking about it.

Gary Neville has alluded to it. Rio Ferdinand has too. Scholes has pretty directly said it. Yet in Ole's pressers and among the press pack in general there's no real analysis of this question.

Up until recently everyone knew what we were: A counterattacking team. That was our default and we did it well.

Ole and the coaching staff decided to abandon that. Nobody's asking them why. We deserve answers. 100 per cent, last season Ole would not have set up to play Liverpool by chasing them about randomly. We have seen Ole face Klopp enough times to know, usually, he goes cautious. He plays for quick breaks. Why change it now? Its delivered the worst result in the history of Man Utd. Why aren't people asking him directly: 'Why did you do this? What did you expect to happen by doing this?'

That's what annoys me most about football journalists. They offer next to no insight.

People still talking about player X and player Y are missing the big picture. The whole structure and approach is wrong. You could have Roy Keane and Bryan Robson in our midfield. It wouldn't matter if our lines are so far apart that they're constantly outnumbered.

Why is nobody asking Ole about his actual tactics? Cos the way I see it: This is his fault. He has made the decision to leave the counter attacking and go with this garbage that we're watching.

This should be a thread by itself, but I was making some similar points elsewhere.

(a) Ole claimed in pre-season that they were ready to be more attacking. People took that as a move to 4-3-3 because the Caf is the Caf.

(b) We have a problem in big games, our default tactic is to just concede possession, stay under the cosh a bit and knick a result on the counter. Lots of people (including me) were not happy with that game play. We have a squad that should rival City or Pool and we're just being whipped about for 90 mins and hoping for a quick counter with Bruno and Rashford to win it and that's not good enough. Our results against the big teams last year are case in point. Lots of draws, 0-0s and half chances on the counter.

(c) Ultimately, pressing from the front is the current football meta and is the right thing to do. Every single successful side is capable of it. Even if you are an absolutely perfect side, you will inevitably go 1-0 / 2-0 down in games and you have to be able to apply the high press and win the ball back quickly.

Ultimately, when you start to develop a pressing system, you will have this sort of cricket score results. Klopp has had those, Hasenhüttl has had those and basically anyone who starts building a high press will have these scorelines.

You'll be vulnerable on the counter and the press *will* be disjointed and players will look a half a yard away from where they should be because they aren't coordinated well. We got away with it against Villareal (remember how many times the press failed and we gave them a direct run at our defence), we got away with it against Atalanta but against a side like Pool with talented attackers, once you give them a run at our defence it's curtains.

I will echo the tactical questions.

Why haven't we implemented a press earlier? That's one of the first things a new manager works on. He definitely had the players for it like Pereira, Lingard etc.

Why do a half baked press against Liverpool when average teams like Villareal were able to beat it easily?

 

[#07]

Fair point, absolutely everyone is giving us a game now. We'd probably be better off sitting deep and hitting on the counter for the rest of the season if Ole stays in charge, we have the players to do this. Doubtful we'd win anything but it probably won't get as embarrassing as it did on Sunday again.

Honestly, if we're going to salvage anything from this season, its the only way.

Opposition sides look at us, with our defence, midfield and attack massively spaced out and just laugh.

Can you imagine what Spurs will do to us, with the speed of Son and Moura, if we decide to leave our front four, midfield two and back four totally detached? Once they beat our first line 'press' (and it really is too s-t to be called a press) they can just swamp our midfield, use pace to get around us and then switch it when we get dragged out of position. It's going to be a bloodbath.

And the scary thing is you can see a lot of teams doing that to us.

This should be a thread by itself, but I was making some similar points elsewhere.

(a) Ole claimed in pre-season that they were ready to be more attacking. People took that as a move to 4-3-3 because the Caf is the Caf.

(b) We have a problem in big games, our default tactic is to just concede possession, stay under the cosh a bit and knick a result on the counter. Lots of people (including me) were not happy with that game play. We have a squad that should rival City or Pool and we're just being whipped about for 90 mins and hoping for a quick counter with Bruno and Rashford to win it and that's not good enough. Our results against the big teams last year are case in point. Lots of draws, 0-0s and half chances on the counter.

(c) Ultimately, pressing from the front is the current football meta and is the right thing to do. Every single successful side is capable of it. Even if you are an absolutely perfect side, you will inevitably go 1-0 / 2-0 down in games and you have to be able to apply the high press and win the ball back quickly.

Ultimately, when you start to develop a pressing system, you will have this sort of cricket score results. Klopp has had those, Hasenhüttl has had those and basically anyone who starts building a high press will have these scorelines.

You'll be vulnerable on the counter and the press *will* be disjointed and players will look a half a yard away from where they should be because they aren't coordinated well. We got away with it against Villareal (remember how many times the press failed and we gave them a direct run at our defence), we got away with it against Atalanta but against a side like Pool with talented attackers, once you give them a run at our defence it's curtains.

I will echo the tactical questions.

Why haven't we implemented a press earlier? That's one of the first things a new manager works on. He definitely had the players for it like Pereira, Lingard etc.

Why do a half baked press against Liverpool when average teams like Villareal were able to beat it easily?

I can't take issue with pretty much anbything you've said. The only thing I would say is the proof of the pudding is in the eating. If we can't press, if we haven't practiced it enough, if we don't have the personnel, if we're getting ripped apart. Regardless of the reason. If its leading to horror shows we need to stop and readjust.

Pogba's criticised the tactics. DeGea has. Bruno has. If the players are saying: 'Look we can't do this.' Regardless of the reasons we gotta stop and reset.

 

[Champ]

Learning in the job is fine. Everyone learning in the job is not fine though.

For example, we have Ole, McKenna and Carrick learning in the job from the coaching stuff. We have Mutrough and Fletcher learning in the job as DoF and technical director. We will have Arnold learning in the job as CEO in two months.

It is a bit too much, isn't it?

You make a good point, but I'd counter that with saying Ole isn't learning on the job (albeit a manager learns all the time but you can understand what I mean), Carrick and McKenna are qualified coaches with years of experience.
Fletcher would have been interviewed, without doubt, and I know some on here may not believe that!
Arnold is involved in the club already and has been for many many years. So again, he may be learning different aspects of work, he knows what needs to be done.

Its not as of every person we have onboard is a complete novice!!

 

[ti vu]

About ten years ago there was a thread on here entitled “What does Phelan actually do?” Or something like that. Fans thought he was useless back then, so I was surprised when people were seeing him as the second coming when he rejoined.

He has his uses as assistant manager during Ole interim. We needed that after sacking Mourinho, while having someone to hold Ole hand then. However, giving them the job and the timing was totally wrong. Now renewing them both despite the foreseeable issue is pure incompetency.

 

[Revan]

You make a good point, but I'd counter that with saying Ole isn't learning on the job (albeit a manager learns all the time but you can understand what I mean), Carrick and McKenna are qualified coaches with years of experience.
Fletcher would have been interviewed, without doubt, and I know some on here may not believe that!
Arnold is involved in the club already and has been for many many years. So again, he may be learning different aspects of work, he knows what needs to be done.

Its not as of every person we have onboard is a complete novice!!

I do not think that anyone is suggesting that they are kids. Just that they are inexperienced in this level.

Ole - manager in Norway, probably equivalent of League two. Relegated Cardiff and then was in course to relegate them again. Definitely not qualified.
Carrick - coach for 4 months before Ole came. Definitely not qualified.
McKenna - coach on academy, 4 months experience in first-team football before Ole. Not qualified.
Fletcher - no experience whatsoever before the job. Definitely not qualified.
Murtough - ran the academy and the recruitment of women's team. Not qualified.
Arnold - Ed's second in charge. Who knows (though Ed was terrible)?

The problem is that all of them are very inexperienced in the role. For example, if Ole was Pep, a brilliant coach, we could have afforded rookie coaches to work under him. Conversely, if we had a Maulensteen or Queiroz as head coaches, we might have afforded Ole as manager.

The same can be said for Fletcher, if Murtough was experienced. But Murtough is a novice himself.

It is a bit different to other clubs. For example, Kahn interned under Rummenigge (one of the best CEOs, probably the best) for 1.5 years before he got the job.

 

[Norman Brownbutter]

Yes. As seen with him taking time to actually pull the club to the right direction.

SAF being grateful for what happened to him is himself the driving force for this giving time to the manager. His farewell speech embodies this idea.

And no. I am not supporting this, especially for someone like Ole.

no, he didn’t. This is the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever read. Being given time to pull the club in the right direction from where it was back then, is not the same as learning on the job. He already knew what he was doing. Learning on the job is something you do under someone more experienced. Which is what Carrick and McKenna are supposed to be doing. What are they learning? How to lose the team, get relegated and move to a sub par league and cross your fingers that your relationships can get you a better job later?

 

[devilish]

I think it all started with the Glazers. These people placed the club in huge debt which ultimately needed to be serviced. At one point Gill must have lost patience and when SAF decided to retire he sensed the shitstorm coming and called it it a day. That gave the Glazers the opportunity to hire Woodward who was great in business but had no clue about football.

During the interim SAF/Gill brought Moyes in (Scottish and all). Gollum smashed the last pillar of experience within the club by sacking the coaching staff and bringing in his own. Moyes reign was short lived and a very inexperienced Woodward fount himself having to choose the manager for the first time. Moyes went out kicking and screaming accusing Woodward of being inexperienced and incompetent. He went for the person who resembled SAF the most ie LVG (old, experienced and a disciplinarian) who went on bringing in his own men. Turned out that LVG wasn't SAF at all. Actually he had no idea of how the EPL worked.

LVG was finally shown the door and he went out kicking and screaming accusing Woodward of being inexperienced and incompetent. This time round Woodward went for the most experienced and successful manager in the EPL. Turned out that Mou was already in decline and had never worked without a DOF in all his life, which meant that he had no idea of how the mechanisms involved in spotting and in buying players. That lead to a series of expensive flops mostly from a small pool of agents (especially Mino) who Mourinho trusted. Mou failed like his predecessors and he went out kicking and screaming accusing Woodward of being inexperienced and incompetent

At this point even the top reds was noticing that things were wrong at United and patience was running low with Woodward. So he brought in a club legend to calm things up. Ole brought most of the fans aboard which was good news from a club who are terrified of bad PR. However his biggest asset was that unlike his predecessors he had no clue how a top club is run at managerial level and was simply too grateful towards Woodward to ever turn against him. Similarly to his inexperienced boss, Ole liked not being questioned so he brought in inexperienced coaches who had never coached a top club and were too grateful towards Ole to turn against him and start leaking stuff. This mentality spread like wildfire and was the brains behind everything (DOF, technical director etc). That lead to an entire structure who know that they are not good enough, are grateful by simply being there and are scared shit of someone competent coming in and exposing them. I mean lets say Conte comes in and says that Fletcher and Carrick have no clue what they are doing then who will the fans believe? Would they believe someone who won both in Italy and in England or would they believe a technical director with 10 minutes coaching experience and the guy whose been assistant manager of two successive doomed administrations that had basically won nothing since he took the job?

 

[sdb4884]

It's this whole "United Way" crap. It needs to be buried permanently, it doesn't fit in with the 2020's way of football anymore.

 

[Stobzilla]

Mates-cheaters United

Any mods want to take responsibility for this?

 

[Yakuza_devils]

Klopp was very smart he saw what other managers couldn't see and rejected us right away because he felt we are Adult Disneyland. Inexperienced and incompetent yes men all over the place.

He must be really being put off after speaking to Ed. He can't believe that someone who has no clue about football running the club and talking nonsense to him.

He is right and after so many years we are still the laughing stock of world football.

 

[ti vu]

no, he didn’t. This is the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever read. Being given time to pull the club in the right direction from where it was back then, is not the same as learning on the job. He already knew what he was doing. Learning on the job is something you do under someone more experienced. Which is what Carrick and McKenna are supposed to be doing. What are they learning? How to lose the team, get relegated and move to a sub par league and cross your fingers that your relationships can get you a better job later?

I don't know what you're arguing about.

I am not implying SAF himself was a novice. I gave what they all, including SAF interpretation about this learning on job/giving time stuff. I disagree with this mix up myself (if you bother to read my post). What happened is the people involved at the club couldn't see to it. Moyes appointment, then Ole bad faith, with former players keep harping about giving time to the chosen one/ their mate. Yet at the same time, these former players were hostile toward LVG and Mourinho from the get go. Go figure.

 

[Champ]

I do not think that anyone is suggesting that they are kids. Just that they are inexperienced in this level.

Ole - manager in Norway, probably equivalent of League two. Relegated Cardiff and then was in course to relegate them again. Definitely not qualified.
Carrick - coach for 4 months before Ole came. Definitely not qualified.
McKenna - coach on academy, 4 months experience in first-team football before Ole. Not qualified.
Fletcher - no experience whatsoever before the job. Definitely not qualified.
Murtough - ran the academy and the recruitment of women's team. Not qualified.
Arnold - Ed's second in charge. Who knows (though Ed was terrible)?

The problem is that all of them are very inexperienced in the role. For example, if Ole was Pep, a brilliant coach, we could have afforded rookie coaches to work under him. Conversely, if we had a Maulensteen or Queiroz as head coaches, we might have afforded Ole as manager.

The same can be said for Fletcher, if Murtough was experienced. But Murtough is a novice himself.

It is a bit different to other clubs. For example, Kahn interned under Rummenigge (one of the best CEOs, probably the best) for 1.5 years before he got the job.

What qualifications did Rummenigge have when he took over?

I hear what your saying but Carrick, McKenna etc have been interning for years also, similar to the situation you're describing with Khan.
If they don't get experience how are they to grow?

Pep went from player to r serve coach to manager, what qualifications did he have!

Ole doesn't appear to have worked out for United, lack of experience isn't an issue three seasons into the job.

 

[mancan92]

The Athletic's standards have plummeted and they are just wums, preying on fan hysteria.

Ole is not inexperienced, he started coaching first team football in 2010, 1 year after Pep. Phelan is very experienced. That's the Manager & Assistant Manager and probably combined one of the most experienced pairings in the league.. Issue isn't people learning on the job, it's just bad hiring.

What are you on about? Ole is not experienced managing a big club that's obviously the point. So we only have 1 person in the coaching staff actually qualified and experienced at that level. Everyone else is fresh to this experience.

 

[Bastian]

Actually, for me, the real question is: Why did Ole abandon his most successful, most well coached idea of counter attacking football.

This is the million dollar question, the one I want answered, the one the press aren't talking about it.

Gary Neville has alluded to it. Rio Ferdinand has too. Scholes has pretty directly said it. Yet in Ole's pressers and among the press pack in general there's no real analysis of this question.

Up until recently everyone knew what we were: A counterattacking team. That was our default and we did it well.

Ole and the coaching staff decided to abandon that. Nobody's asking them why. We deserve answers. 100 per cent, last season Ole would not have set up to play Liverpool by chasing them about randomly. We have seen Ole face Klopp enough times to know, usually, he goes cautious. He plays for quick breaks. Why change it now? Its delivered the worst result in the history of Man Utd. Why aren't people asking him directly: 'Why did you do this? What did you expect to happen by doing this?'

That's what annoys me most about football journalists. They offer next to no insight.

People still talking about player X and player Y are missing the big picture. The whole structure and approach is wrong. You could have Roy Keane and Bryan Robson in our midfield. It wouldn't matter if our lines are so far apart that they're constantly outnumbered.

Why is nobody asking Ole about his actual tactics? Cos the way I see it: This is his fault. He has made the decision to leave the counter attacking and go with this garbage that we're watching.

Do you not remember the almost two years of figuring out how to open teams up? Should we not expect something more from United with 500m spent than only being able to play on the counter? Fair enough Ole went kamikaze against Liverpool, with a squad that was already massively low on morale and completely lost as to how it is being coached, but we've already established that Ole is not the man for this club.

 

[tomaldinho1]

What are you on about? Ole is not experienced managing a big club that's obviously the point. So we only have 1 person in the coaching staff actually qualified and experienced at that level. Everyone else is fresh to this experience.

Ok not sure how that means he is inexperienced though.
If you have to have big club experience before managing a big club, we're at a bit of a catch 22.

 

[mancan92]

Ok not sure how that means he is inexperienced though.
If you have to have big club experience before managing a big club, we're at a bit of a catch 22.

Some managers have top level experience and move to a big team. Ole doesn't even have top level experience. That's the point.

 

[TsuWave]

Cowardly club

 

[Sviken]

Yes. As seen with him taking time to actually pull the club to the right direction.

SAF being grateful for what happened to him is himself the driving force for this giving time to the manager. His farewell speech embodies this idea.

And no. I am not supporting this, especially for someone like Ole.

Mate, you're talking absolute nonsense. SAF achieved success everywhere he went, he had a credit to his name and thus was given time. He didn't need to learn shit except fix a broken club. It's like a more successful version of Klopp (prior to Liverpool) coming here. What has Ole done to deserve any faith whatsoever? On the pitch we are shambles, not only in terms of results but in general play. His CV is atrocious by any top club standards and the only reason he is here is because of an incompetent board and him being a former player.

To compare him to SAF is the ultimate insult. Might as well get Brucie in, he might turn into SAF, too, if you give him a couple of years.

 

[Sparky Rhiwabon]

Because Mourinho and Van Gaal didn’t worked

The were too far the other way - past their best and out of touch with modern football by the time they reached us

 

[pocco]

Coaching the Manchester United reserve setup at the start of his career.

Exactly. I still haven't watched the video to see if they're suggesting Ole is still learning, but it would be a ridiculous claim.

 

[stw2022]

Every current successful club has been managed in their recent history by an experienced manager who was not so successful. Their response to that wasn't to conclude that someone competent and qualified to replace them was out of the question. I've never understood this argument so many of our fans make.

'We've tried a human and that didn't work, we need to look beyond the species maybe'

 

[RedRover]

Love to know what Begiristain was doing at Barca when he got appointed, if not learning on the job, or Van Der Sar at Ajax, or Rummenigge at Bayern etc etc.

The Athletic are beginning to be the biggest trolls in modern football journalism, what with their obsession with poor Tifo videos and podcasts deliberately designed to ruffle the feathers of fans.

The point is, you bring individuals into a structure where those around them know their job and are not also learning as they go. The whole club is being run on this basis. The point being made is absolutely spot on. What other club in world football is run like this?

 

[tomaldinho1]

Some managers have top level experience and move to a big team. Ole doesn't even have top level experience. That's the point.

Oh I fully agree, he was unqualified but he'd had a good amount of coaching experience. The board are fully to blame here though, they essentially hired a Sainsbury's local branch manager and made him CEO of Walmart.

 

[ti vu]

Mate, you're talking absolute nonsense. SAF achieved success everywhere he went, he had a credit to his name and thus was given time. He didn't need to learn shit except fix a broken club. It's like a more successful version of Klopp (prior to Liverpool) coming here. What has Ole done to deserve any faith whatsoever? On the pitch we are shambles, not only in terms of results but in general play. His CV is atrocious by any top club standards and the only reason he is here is because of an incompetent board and him being a former player.

To compare him to SAF is the ultimate insult. Might as well get Brucie in, he might turn into SAF, too, if you give him a couple of years.

You suggested you reread my post. I am not the one comparing. I am stating what former players, SAF, and the people at the club interpreting. Moyes, Ole, giving them more time... that what "they" confuse themselves with. Not me.

 

[::sonny::]

The were too far the other way - past their best and out of touch with modern football by the time they reached us

This is sure, not top managers anymore at that time

 

[RedRover]

Yes, this is a very real problem.

I don't consider Ole to be "learning on the job" though. Not in any aspect. He knows the club as well as just about anybody. Yes, it's his first big job. But at this point he's not a rookie within management. He's managed hundreds of football matches. I'm not sure where it comes from, he must be close to his maximum of what he can do as a manager in the respect that he's not old and weathered, but he's got matches under his belt at a top level that he should have learnt from.

The other staff do not have the background and experience one would expect, however. Particularly on the strategic side, we have men that don't have a history in sporting operations and that isn't a good point as they also answer to men that are absent. There is no accountability there. I don't think it took long to realise Gill was a gigantic loss. But Gill isn't the only qualified man, the Glazers simply refuse to appoint outside their bubble.

He was never fit for the job. His only stint in the PL was shambolic. Why is anyone surprised how this has turned out?

Lets be honest. United should never have appointed a manager who'd had limited success in Norway and had previously been relegated from the Premier League. The fact that he played under Fergie and "knows the club" is absolute nonsense. The club needs to look forward, not back or they'll continue making the same mistakes again and again.

 

[Spoony]

The point is, you bring individuals into a structure where those around them know their job and are not also learning as they go. The whole club is being run on this basis. The point being made is absolutely spot on. What other club in world football is run like this?

Exactly. Any qualified individual should've able to fit into that structure. There's so much wrong with club, Barcelona with their debts are renovating the Camp Nou and surrounding area. They'll spend a billion but expect a £200m returrn annually...Real similar yet we're archaic for top to bottom.

 

[Sviken]

You suggested you reread my post. I am not the one comparing. I am stating what former players, SAF, and the people at the club interpreting. Moyes, Ole, giving them more time... that what "they" confuse themselves with. Not me.

But you said SAF needed to learn on the job which is false. In fact, he initially rejected us because he thought Aberdeen were the better club. That's how fall we had fallen back then. Ole needs to learn on the job because he's achieved nothing in football. And his staff have zero resume, except Phelan who seems to be more like a cheerleader these days than an actual coach. I know SAF, due to his past experiences and tendency to undersell himself, would like to give every manager 10 years on the job as a rule, but those are his personal views and not the reality of the situation.

 

[steffyr2]

I think it all started with the Sir Alex. These people placed the club in huge debt which ultimately needed to be serviced. At one point Gill must have lost patience and when SAF decided to retire he sensed the shitstorm coming and called it it a day. That gave the Glazers the opportunity to hire Woodward who was great in business but had no clue about football.

During the interim SAF/Gill brought Moyes in (Scottish and all). Gollum smashed the last pillar of experience within the club by sacking the coaching staff and bringing in his own. Moyes reign was short lived and a very inexperienced Woodward fount himself having to choose the manager for the first time. Moyes went out kicking and screaming accusing Woodward of being inexperienced and incompetent. He went for the person who resembled SAF the most ie LVG (old, experienced and a disciplinarian) who went on bringing in his own men. Turned out that LVG wasn't SAF at all. Actually he had no idea of how the EPL worked.

LVG was finally shown the door and he went out kicking and screaming accusing Woodward of being inexperienced and incompetent. This time round Woodward went for the most experienced and successful manager in the EPL. Turned out that Mou was already in decline and had never worked without a DOF in all his life, which meant that he had no idea of how the mechanisms involved in spotting and in buying players. That lead to a series of expensive flops mostly from a small pool of agents (especially Mino) who Mourinho trusted. Mou failed like his predecessors and he went out kicking and screaming accusing Woodward of being inexperienced and incompetent

At this point even the top reds was noticing that things were wrong at United and patience was running low with Woodward. So he brought in a club legend to calm things up. Ole brought most of the fans aboard which was good news from a club who are terrified of bad PR. However his biggest asset was that unlike his predecessors he had no clue how a top club is run at managerial level and was simply too grateful towards Woodward to ever turn against him. Similarly to his inexperienced boss, Ole liked not being questioned so he brought in inexperienced coaches who had never coached a top club and were too grateful towards Ole to turn against him and start leaking stuff. This mentality spread like wildfire and was the brains behind everything (DOF, technical director etc). That lead to an entire structure who know that they are not good enough, are grateful by simply being there and are scared shit of someone competent coming in and exposing them. I mean lets say Conte comes in and says that Fletcher and Carrick have no clue what they are doing then who will the fans believe? Would they believe someone who won both in Italy and in England or would they believe a technical director with 10 minutes coaching experience and the guy whose been assistant manager of two successive doomed administrations that had basically won nothing since he took the job?

fyp

Sir Alex created no mgmt structure at Utd. (nor did Gill). He wanted Moyes, who didn't know what to do with the existing cadre of winning coaches and players so he fired them all.

The whole idea is that the backrooms of Utd keeps recycling the same good old boys and rewarding failure. Have you ever wondered why Utd players who go into coaching are so mediocre?

 

[ti vu]

But you said SAF needed to learn on the job which is false. In fact, he initially rejected us because he thought Aberdeen were the better club. That's how fall we had fallen back then. Ole needs to learn on the job because he's achieved nothing in football. I know SAF, due to his past experiences and tendency to undersell himself, would like to give every manager 10 years on the job as a rule, but those are his personal views and not the reality of the situation.

I posed my previous initial post from perspective of SAF. He's humble and self aware by all accounts. He sounds like he took each challenge as if it's anew. He has his skills but he always adapt himself. He was not methodical by bringing the same approach to face new challenge. He has this hunger to learn (gamble) with the situation. This point I believe is what has been misinterpreted and undersold as learning on the job even by himself.

I don't believe you and me have any disagreement TBF. My initial post was mostly about the club is lost due to misinterpretation of how truly genius and experienced SAF was, in their quest to find another SAF in vain.

As with however weird I worded my initial post, it's underlying how problematic misinterpretation can cause. Cheers