How good was Kaka compared to his compatriots?

[Brwned]

Spoken like somebody who has only seen him play on Youtube videos.

Pretty sure he’s been watching footy for decades and saw Romario play against us in the 90s. Much like e.g. @Spoony, a lot of people who got small glances of him there and in the World Cups didn’t recognise him as a particularly big name, he was mostly pigeon-holed as a poacher, and it wasn’t clear to everyone that Romario was even that much better than Bebeto. The World Cup was the YouTube of prior eras, shaping views in a big way.

It’s actually the internet era that has seen a re-evaluation of Romario in a lot of Europe, bringing in the experiences from Brazilians who saw him year after year, bringing in the views of Barcelona fans rather than the couple of Barcelona games United fans watched, etc. Most PL fans in the 90s thought little of him because as far as they’re concerned he only had 2 years in view; who would ever see PSV or the Brazilian leagues?

The Brazilian fans over the years have corrected the record there; they know quality attackers and they laughed at the comparison to Bebeto and happily put him up there with the legendary #9s. And the more widespread footage, on places like YouTube, back that up.

 

[11101]

Pretty sure he’s been watching footy for decades and saw Romario play against us in the 90s. Much like e.g. @Spoony, a lot of people who got small glances of him there and in the World Cups didn’t recognise him as a particularly big name, he was mostly pigeon-holed as a poacher, and it wasn’t clear to everyone that Romario was even that much better than Bebeto. The World Cup was the YouTube of prior eras, shaping views in a big way.

It’s actually the internet era that has seen a re-evaluation of Romario in a lot of Europe, bringing in the experiences from Brazilians who saw him year after year, bringing in the views of Barcelona fans rather than the couple of Barcelona games United fans watched, etc. Most PL fans in the 90s thought little of him because as far as they’re concerned he only had 2 years in view; who would ever see PSV or the Brazilian leagues?

The Brazilian fans over the years have corrected the record there; they know quality attackers and they laughed at the comparison to Bebeto and happily put him up there with the legendary #9s. And the more widespread footage, on places like YouTube, back that up.

Fair enough i suppose, I saw bits of him at Barcelona on some early Sky channel I had but I dont expect most would have had that at the time. Then it was the World Cup in 1994 that made me really notice him. He was brilliant. And then he did it again at the 97 Copa America with Ronaldo. I even had a Nike shirt with the 3 Rs on it. It's daft to suggest Haaland, Lewandowski, Kane or Benzema were anywhere near him. He's possibly the best penalty box striker of all time.

 

[Brwned]

Fair enough i suppose, I saw bits of him at Barcelona on some early Sky channel I had but I dont expect most would have had that at the time. Then it was the World Cup in 1994 that made me really notice him. He was brilliant. And then he did it again at the 97 Copa America with Ronaldo. I even had a Nike shirt with the 3 Rs on it. It's daft to suggest Haaland, Lewandowski, Kane or Benzema were anywhere near him. He's possibly the best penalty box striker of all time.

Yeah I agree, but I don’t blame people for questioning such a lofty status giving he spent so much of his career outside the top leagues. I just think it’s fair to say he answered those questions firmly with his talent and every time he played on the big stage.

 

[TenonTen]

Fair enough i suppose, I saw bits of him at Barcelona on some early Sky channel I had but I dont expect most would have had that at the time. Then it was the World Cup in 1994 that made me really notice him. He was brilliant. And then he did it again at the 97 Copa America with Ronaldo. I even had a Nike shirt with the 3 Rs on it. It's daft to suggest Haaland, Lewandowski, Kane or Benzema were anywhere near him. He's possibly the best penalty box striker of all time.

It's even more daft to group Lewandowski with Kane and Haaland when he's himself an all time great forward who already has over 600 career goals and is still in his peak(will atleast end up with 700 career goals in the worst case scenario).

 

[Gio]

Yawn. In no universe would Romario «easily be the best striker in the world» when up against Haaland, Kane, Lewandowski and Benzema. Based on his goals at lowly PSV and one season at Barcelona? Gimme a break, not a single thread goes without some hipster mentions of former Brazilians.

Lowly PSV were champions of Europe when Romario signed for them. And irrespective of how you rate the Dutch league (where the top end was clearly not that bad given it provided the best team in Europe twice in 7 years), he scored heavily in Europe for both PSV and Barcelona, with 24 goals in 32 games, including 2 in 2 against Real Madrid and against that Milan who simply could not handle him.

Romario was an incredible striker who would easily be the best in the world if he was playing now

Yeah. I shudder to think how devastating he'd be now for one of the superclubs who dominate the ball and the territory to feed their no9 several chances every game.

 

[altodevil]

Has Rivaldo even retired yet?

 

[General_Elegancia]

Has Rivaldo even retired yet?

He has retired for almost 10 years from professional football but he's still very fit and always doing exercises.



You can check his lifestyle in instagram.

 

[B20]

The thing about Romario is that he was more than just a brilliant poacher too. You could cannon balls at him under pressure and the ball would just stick to him. He was great at holding up the ball. And between Maradona and Messi, he was probably the best dribbler through the middle of the pitch.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Yeah. I shudder to think how devastating he'd be now for one of the superclubs who dominate the ball and the territory to feed their no9 several chances every game.

Im not so sure tbh, today game is all about the pressing and those team that dominate the ball they do it because(obviously their ability on the ball is also crucial) their pressing game is so good the other team just cant keep the ball.
So while Romario was and is one of the best strikers that ever played the game there is no question about it, he was a genius - but if i was to pick an all-time great that would struggle in today game Romario would probably be near the top of the list.
He was a lazy mf, would walk through most games, get you to sleep and then bite your head off. Just dont think that style is possible this days and for all their talent you see Messi, Neymar, Ronaldo struggling since they completely started relying on their talent.

 

[Righteous Steps]

Im not so sure tbh, today game is all about the pressing and those team that dominate the ball they do it because(obviously their ability on the ball is also crucial) their pressing game is so good the other team just cant keep the ball.
So while Romario was and is one of the best strikers that ever played the game there is no question about it, he was a genius - but if i was to pick an all-time great that would struggle in today game Romario would probably be near the top of the list.
He was a lazy mf, would walk through most games, get you to sleep and then bite your head off. Just dont think that style is possible this days and for all their talent you see Messi, Neymar, Ronaldo struggling since they completely started relying on their talent.

Messi Neymar and Ronaldo have worked less harder than everyone else even in their prime years though, Messi probably the hardest working out of the three but Ronaldo for example had other players to carry the workload even in his prime, if he could be a success in this generation likely Romario could be too.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Messi Neymar and Ronaldo have worked less harder than everyone else even in their prime years though, Messi probably the hardest working out of the three but Ronaldo for example had other players to carry the workload even in his prime, if he could be a success in this generation likely Romario could be too.

They were never grafters but they all did enough(though i do agree they were carried in terms of workload) but Romario was much more like their versions of last few years. Obviously he could adapt, would that have an impact on his other segments? Its enough question-marks for us to not be sure if he would dominate or not, something cant be said for someone like Gerd Muller or Van Basten - irrelevant of how highly you rate the three.

 

[Brwned]

Im not so sure tbh, today game is all about the pressing and those team that dominate the ball they do it because(obviously their ability on the ball is also crucial) their pressing game is so good the other team just cant keep the ball.
So while Romario was and is one of the best strikers that ever played the game there is no question about it, he was a genius - but if i was to pick an all-time great that would struggle in today game Romario would probably be near the top of the list.
He was a lazy mf, would walk through most games, get you to sleep and then bite your head off. Just dont think that style is possible this days and for all their talent you see Messi, Neymar, Ronaldo struggling since they completely started relying on their talent.

Haaland is having a pretty great of time of things while being just a classic #9 who comes alive in the final third with no defensive strength to speak of…

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Haaland is having a pretty great of time of things while being just a classic #9 who comes alive in the final third with no defensive strength to speak of…

Dont really watch BVB this days so wouldnt know but i doubt he walks 90% of the game....even if he did, he plays for Dortmund so isnt competing at highest level yet. Im sure when he gets his move he will learn that part of the game as well or he could easily flop and just went to dominate the tier below highest.
Him being a n9 isnt an issue, Lewa is also a classic n9 but on top of his ability he also works hard in the defensive phase and is very good at press.

 

[abundance]

Yeah. I shudder to think how devastating he'd be now for one of the superclubs who dominate the ball and the territory to feed their no9 several chances every game.

Defensive movements speed and organization has been super duped since his age, but man, he basically camped in the half-spaces way before they got that name.
He would feast in the gaps that top-level clubs create with their pinball frenzy.

The thing about Romario is that he was more than just a brilliant poacher too. You could cannon balls at him under pressure and the ball would just stick to him. He was great at holding up the ball. And between Maradona and Messi, he was probably the best dribbler through the middle of the pitch.

Yeah.
Tactically, picture a quicker Firmino with monstrously upgraded ball skills and goalscoring threat.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Dont get me wrong, i bloody love Romario and have him as probably 4th best striker of all time. How he would play today is irrelevant, he played in his era where that type of football was okay so he is judged on that.

 

[Smithy89]

Milan Kaka is the best player in the world right now and it wouldn't be close, he was absolutely ridiculous.

 

[Woodzy]

Did Kaka ever play for Chelsea? I'm almost certain he didn't while at the same time pretty sure he might have.

It's like that episode of The Office where they question whether Stanley has a moustche.

 

[hellhunter]

Did Kaka ever play for Chelsea? I'm almost certain he didn't while at the same time pretty sure he might have.

It's like that episode of The Office where they question whether Stanley has a moustche.

Maybe confusing him with Pato?

 

[Gio]

Im not so sure tbh, today game is all about the pressing and those team that dominate the ball they do it because(obviously their ability on the ball is also crucial) their pressing game is so good the other team just cant keep the ball.
So while Romario was and is one of the best strikers that ever played the game there is no question about it, he was a genius - but if i was to pick an all-time great that would struggle in today game Romario would probably be near the top of the list.
He was a lazy mf, would walk through most games, get you to sleep and then bite your head off. Just dont think that style is possible this days and for all their talent you see Messi, Neymar, Ronaldo struggling since they completely started relying on their talent.

I agree with the general point, but those players were exceptional enough to do little off the ball and still hoovered up Champions League trophies and Ballon D'Ors. Without the ball, Messi has barely broke into a trot in over a decade, yet has carved out a career as arguably the greatest player of all time. The last time he had any meaningful role off the ball was in 2009 when he primarily played as a right winger. As soon as he was moved into the middle, he stopped pressing.



For the last decade he's averaged about 8k a match in the Champions League, which is basically 90 minutes of standing about, walking, and then occasionally springing to life when attacking. Yet he's been the best and most influential player in the world for the bulk of that time.

 

[Red the Bear]

Lowly PSV were champions of Europe when Romario signed for them. And irrespective of how you rate the Dutch league (where the top end was clearly not that bad given it provided the best team in Europe twice in 7 years), he scored heavily in Europe for both PSV and Barcelona, with 24 goals in 32 games, including 2 in 2 against Real Madrid and against that Milan who simply could not handle him.

Yeah. I shudder to think how devastating he'd be now for one of the superclubs who dominate the ball and the territory to feed their no9 several chances every game.

Great post as a lot of people seem to under rate the Dutch league which at the time was brimming with talent. It wasn't quite on par with the serie a but it was a very respectable league far better than what it is now.

Also Great goal by romario in that clip, his close control was extraordinary.

 

[Red the Bear]

Also poor Kaka would get derailed by his other compatriots even in his own thread.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

I agree with the general point, but those players were exceptional enough to do little off the ball and still hoovered up Champions League trophies and Ballon D'Ors. Without the ball, Messi has barely broke into a trot in over a decade, yet has carved out a career as arguably the greatest player of all time. The last time he had any meaningful role off the ball was in 2009 when he primarily played as a right winger. As soon as he was moved into the middle, he stopped pressing.



For the last decade he's averaged about 8k a match in the Champions League, which is basically 90 minutes of standing about, walking, and then occasionally springing to life when attacking. Yet he's been the best and most influential player in the world for the bulk of that time.

Agree and disagree with a lot of what you say just in this post

With what i agree is that Romario talent alone gives him a good chance to still do it, my only issue from the start was that that isnt a given like it would be with Gerd or someone of that ilk that had both the talent and hardwork.

Part i disagree is the Messi thing, he was very good at pressing as a F9, they were do good that they didnt had to do it a lot but when they did Messi was a big part of it.
Near the end when he was starting to slack a bit he was moved to the right, in the CL winning season he did enough for team to be able to carry him but after that success its like he lost the hunger and naturally wasnt been able to compete anymore, specially as Barca was a mess of the pitch as well. Mind you, even that version was enough for Barca to win the league most seasons as against lesser teams his lack of running wasnt an issue.

Football is evolving at a rapid pace, you have best managers in the world getting best players in the world to do the “donkey” work and i cant see that changing any time soon(or ever) so top talents will either adopt or play at a level below highest.

 

[Woodzy]

Maybe confusing him with Pato?

Ah that's probably it!

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Also poor Kaka would get derailed by his other compatriots even in his own thread.

Poor bastard....
To get back to the theme, from the list in the OP he can only compare with Rivaldo, think they are much closer then people think but WC win will always swing the opinion towards Rivaldo even if there is a possibility that Kaka was actually the better player(both were brilliant).

 

[General_Elegancia]

I would say 80s Eredivisie was pretty high-scoring league. Scoring over 90+ goals in Eredivisie were so regular and could find in any top teams like Ajax, Feyenoord and PSV. It was very offensive-minded league which was very opposite from 80s Calcio. This thread is pretty go far ahead now from Kaka to strikers tier, so I will talk about League tiers too. I think the best league in the world during late 80s was probably Calcio for sure, Bundesliga at that time also a tier1 league, they had a lot of great teams, which was a bit different from today. Tier2 would be La Liga and England. Imho, Dutch League was in tier3 which was in the same tier with USSR league, Brasilerao or even Argentine Primera Division.

Romario during PSV period performed superbly in the first season of Uefa Champions League, he scored 7 goals in 9 games, including 2 goals against Real Madrid and against 1992-1993 Milan's backline aka the greatest backline ever in the history of football. Milan's backline conceded only 1 goal before went to final against Marseille and that only goal came from Romario. Barcelona's Romario performed very well in La Liga, scored 30 goals in 33 games but not in Champions League which he scored only 2 goals in 10games and he had an image of being shutdown by Milan's backline without Baresi and Costacurta in final 1994.


Full game


He played well in this match during his PSV era.

 

[Red the Bear]

I would say 80s Eredivisie was pretty high-scoring league. Scoring over 90+ goals in Eredivisie were so regular and could find in any top team like Ajax, Feyenoord and PSV. It was very offensive-minded league which was very opposite from 80s Calcio. This thread is pretty go far ahead now from Kaka to strikers tier, so I will talk about League tiers too. I think the best league in the world during late 80s was probably Calcio for sure, Bundesliga at that time also a tier1 league, they had a lot of great teams, which was a bit different from today. Tier2 would be La Liga and England. Imho, Dutch League was in tier3 which was in the same tier with USSR league, Brasilerao or even Argentine Primera Division.

Romario during PSV period performed superbly in the first season of Uefa Champions League, he scored 7 goals in 9 games, including 2 goals against Real Madrid and against 1992-1993 Milan's backline aka the greatest backline ever in the history of football. Milan's backline conceded only 1 goal before went to final against Marseille and that only goal came from Romario. Barcelona's Romario performed very well in La Liga, scored 30 goals in 33 games but not in Champions League which he scored only 2 goals in 10games and he had an image of being shutdown by Milan's backline without Baresi and Costacurta in final 1994.


Full game


He played well in this match during his PSV era.

Great post though I would probably say that your ranking would be probably more accurate during the latter half of the 80s as England for example would have been comfortably tier 1 had it not been for that tragic disaster, also Bundesliga wasn't that good in the latter half and it had a talent drain from serie a which was without the doubt the best and probably the greatest era in any league at any time.
The Dutch teams also performed very respectably in Europe during that era with psv themselves winning 2 titles so definitely very competitive with a decent pool of talent to draw from so I would call them the best of the rest with the 4 major leagues not included (with Italy, Germany, England and Spain being better)

 

[General_Elegancia]

Great post though I would probably say that your ranking would be probably more accurate during the latter half of the 80s as England for example would have been comfortably tier 1 had it not been for that tragic disaster, also Bundesliga wasn't that good in the latter half and it had a talent drain from serie a which was without the doubt the best and probably the greatest era in any league at any time.
The Dutch teams also performed very respectably in Europe during that era with psv themselves winning 2 titles so definitely very competitive with a decent pool of talent to draw from so I would call them the best of the rest with the 4 major leagues not included (with Italy, Germany, England and Spain being better)

Yep, England and Germany were two of the best league in the world during first-half of 80s. The reason that I ranked England as tier2 was the reason that you've already mentioned, they didn't have any single European tournament due to "tragic disaster" and that affected to great teams like Liverpool late 80s ( they could even had more 1-2 titles), Everton 1985-1987 ( they had a chance to win at that time) and a lot of great teams.

I would agree with you too that Dutch league probably the best league outside of 4 major leagues ( Italy, Germany, England and Spain).