Maybe I'm underrating Rivaldo now because his prime happened before I started watching football but I'd have Kaka ahead of him. Ronaldo, Robaldinho and Romario are above him but no shame in that, though. Kaka was absolutely brillant for Milan. Arguably even the best player they had in the last 20 years?
How good was Kaka compared to his compatriots?
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I don't think Van Basten was more all rounded. I think people just penalise Romario because he didn't stay in Europe for that long.
But I don't think the difference between Brazil and Europe was as big as it is now. After all, Romario absolutely destroyed United's treble winning team in the CWC when he was playing for Vasco Da Gama, IIRC.
Just on watching them both, Romario was a better player for me, just a genius. And we also have to factor in World Cups and the fact that Romario had a significantly better goal record at international level.
It's completely understandable if you consider Romário a better player but I can't see how you can argue that he was more all-rounded than van Basten. Van Basten had everything that you can ask from a striker — perfect shooting technique with both feet, amazing in the air, fast, strong, tall, great dribbler and a decent passer. Romário was probably better at dribbling due to his low centre of gravity but he was certainly more of a specialist — and it would be weird to put him as a target man, for example, while van Basten is suitable for pretty much any tactic.
You can be a better player than someone without being as all-rounded. Messi is useless in the air, aside from that odd goal against us in the final, and there are quite a few attackers that I'd consider to be more all-rounded than him, but I haven't seen anyone who can honestly claim to be a definitively better player than Messi.
I think Rivaldo is massively underrated. Key player in two world cups
Well I never said more rounded, I was trying to say that it's not clear to me that Van Basten was more rounded. They do different things and have different styles of play. But it's an interesting discussion. I guess it depends on what you are looking for.
Romario to me was a more skilful player, a better dribbler, a better passer and a very clever operator. His goal record (ratio wise) is also better than Van Basten's, although I'm sure many will claim that Van Basten had it harder in Italy, which I can accept. Unfortunately, that argument doesn't work at international level.
As amazing as Romario is, he does not come close to Van Basten in his club career. Van Basten was "the main star" of that AC Milan, one of the most dominant teams of all time playing in the hardest league of those times. Van Basten would a no brainer choice for most who witnessed that era, late 80s-early 90s.
In terms of international career, you probably haven't watched Euro 1988 and seen how influential Van Basten was for the Dutch national team, easily the best player in that tournament, top scorer, breaking Dutch NT curse in international finals while scoring probably one of the most iconic goals ever in a major NT tournament final.
For the sake of not derailing the thread I'll be consice in saying that while van basten's club career is comfortably ahead of romario's he does get a bit under rated due to those Dutch years at a time where the Dutch league was much more competitive with Europe and actually used to get the top foreign players from time to time, and there Romario put up impeccable numbers.
A career path which i believe Ronaldo tried to emulate by going to Eindhoven first and then moving on to Barcelona, and both probably never reached the heights they should have either due to injuries or just sheer laziness.
Anyway it's not really fair to compare Kaka to either as the playing styles are so radically different.
A career path which i believe Ronaldo tried to emulate by going to Eindhoven first and then moving on to Barcelona, and both probably never reached the heights they should have either due to injuries or just sheer laziness.
Anyway it's not really fair to compare Kaka to either as the playing styles are so radically different.
No brainer choice for most who witnessed that era? I don't think so.
And you see all that stuff you mentioned about Euro 88 (which I did see by the way)? Romario did that in a World Cup. Without all timers like Gullit and Rijkaard beside him.
World Cup >>>>>> anything that happens in a Euros.
Not to mention that he has double the international goals and played only 12 more games.
Strangely enough Romario is someone that I have only saw a limited amount of time. Which brings me to a serious question, was Elber that far from the level of the players mentioned?
I would say it's pretty close, although I rate Van Basten a bit higher. It's ok, if you rate Romario higher than Van Basten too. Romario and Van Basten had different strengths and weakness and in this department ,Van Basten is probably better in term of completeness. Romario was better than Van Basten in close control touch( a bit), shooting close-range( he was almost goat in this department) , dribbling due to his lower-centered of gravity and pure-technique(debatable). Van Basten was better in aerial abilities ( both scoring and controlling), better two-footers, better shooting techniques like overhead kick, volley, half volley and scissor kick, better passer( debatable) and long-range shooting. Oh, Van Basten had better defensive work-rate and disclipline too.
I rate Romario same tier as Van Basten. My tier 1 of strikers are Ronaldo, Muller, Van Basten and Romario, tier 2 for me would be Uwe Seeler, Kocsis, Lewan, Henry and Suarez( not in particular order). Romario for me was a similar type of skillsets to Gerd Muller and they have been compared for almost 20 years due to a lot of similarities.
Van Basten probably had one of the most beautiful bicycle-kick form that I've ever seen.
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I would go as far to say van basten was the greatest shooter in football, that goal to soviet union in the semi final still amazes me to this day.I would say it's pretty close, although I rate Van Basten a bit higher. It's ok, if you rate Van-Basten higher than Romario too. Romario and Van Basten had different strengths and weakness and in this department ,Van Basten is probably better in term of completeness. Romario was better than Van Basten in close control touch( a bit), shooting close-range( he was almost goat in this department) , dribbling due to his lower-centered of gravity and pure-technique(debatable). Van Basten was better in aerial abilities ( both scoring and controlling), better two-footers, better shooting techniques like overhead kick, volley, half volley and scissor kick, better passer( debatable) and long-range shooting. Oh, Van Basten had better defensive work-rate and disclipline too.
I rate Romario same tier as Van Basten. My tier 1 of strikers are Ronaldo, Muller, Van Basten and Romario, tier 2 for me would be Uwe Seeler, Kocsis, Lewan, Henry and Suarez( not in particular order). Romario for me was a similar type of skillsets to Gerd Muller and they have been compared for almost 20 years due to a lot of similarities.
Van Basten probably had one of the most beautiful bicycle-kick form that I've ever seen.
Pure bless from footballing gods.
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clueless post.. you mention Gullit, Rijkaard as if 94 Brazil NT was a division 2 team without Romario))
Van Basten was the top player in Europe between 1988-1992 era before his forced retirement winning 3 Ballon D'ors. He is the guy in that era that comes to mind when you talk about the greatest player along with Maradona just like R9 in his era or Messi/Ronaldo in their era. You are probably too young to witness his greatness live and know this.
His club career>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Romario's club career.. no comparison, Romario only shined a bit with Barca for 2 years and then disappeared from the top club stage after his departure..
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That was the final not the semi final, agree Van Basten was pure joy to watch in that era, sad that he had to retire very early at 28.
That just makes it more impressive as I thought the final was with the Germany .
It's a fair candidate to being the greatest goal scored in a final.
Also pretty much agree that he was taken from us too son, having another crack at the world cup and maybe another European cup would perhaps make him the greatest striker ever above the great gerd Muller.
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Are you suggesting that their respective performances in that tournament were an indicator of the relative strength of the respective leagues?
Definitely, agree, he was likely to win at least another CL with Milan, and do serious damage in the WC if he could play which would cement his legacy even more.
AC Milan's domination with Van Basten in the CL, their local rivalry with Maradona's Napoli and Inter with German trio Matthaus/Brehme/Klinsmann were unforgettable, some golden years of Serie A. Not to mention the rivalry between Dutch NT with Van Basten/Rijkaard/Gullit vs German NT Matthaus/Brehme/Klinsmann, were exciting times..
Quite indeed, the fall of serie from those times to now has been rather alarming and tragic, hopefully they will manage to fix the mess they're in.
Yawn. In no universe would Romario «easily be the best striker in the world» when up against Haaland, Kane, Lewandowski and Benzema. Based on his goals at lowly PSV and one season at Barcelona? Gimme a break, not a single thread goes without some hipster mentions of former Brazilians.
He was a good player, should never have won the Ballon D'or.
Ronaldo
Ronaldinho
Rivaldo
Kaka
Romario
Romario might have been better than that but spent too much of his career in Brazil.
Ronaldo
Ronaldinho
Rivaldo
Kaka
Romario
Romario might have been better than that but spent too much of his career in Brazil.
Name the players in the Brazil 94 team that were as good as Gullit or Rijkaard (or Koeman)? Gullit is also a Ballon D'Or winner by the way.
I'm not, I saw him play. When MVB won the Ballon D'Or, it was an award only for Europeans. If you think it's so clear cut for MVB, explain why Romario was voted ahead of him in the FIFA player of the Century poll in 99? That doesn't mean that Romario is automatically better, but it proves that thinking Romario was better doesn't make you 'clueless'. It's all about opinions.
This just shows that you don't know much about him. He was in Europe for 7 years and was tremendous at PSV and Barcelona, scoring at an insane rate and winning trophies. If you want to downgrade the Dutch league as well, that wouldn't make much sense because MVB spent so much of his own career there.
If your argument is MVB played in Serie A and Romario didn't, then I could be equally reductive and say Romario is a World Cup and World Cup golden ball winner and MVB never scored a single goal in that tournament, on the biggest stage of all.
Cant really compare him to any of them but Rivaldo as all the rest were playing in a different position.
His reputation was a little tarnished due to the injuries and failure at Madrid, but his period at Milan he was absolutely fantastic the turn of pace and powerful running. He absolutely destroyed us in the champions league.
For me, I would put most of the others ahead as they are very much amongst the best of all time in there position, especially entertainment wise. ROmario in the area is the best I have seen, ROnaldo simply the best striker of all time and second best player I have seen in my lifetime personally, Ronaldhino was just a pure joy to watch entertainment wise and the magic Rivaldo provided for a couple of seasons winning Barcelona titles seems very under estimated on here, he was simply phenomenal for a period some of the goals he scored......all did things hardlly any other players have done. Kaka was superb, but maybe under playing, a lot of it was his ability to turn pace with or without the ball and great finishing, it didnt stand out in terms of originality, he just did it better than most
His reputation was a little tarnished due to the injuries and failure at Madrid, but his period at Milan he was absolutely fantastic the turn of pace and powerful running. He absolutely destroyed us in the champions league.
For me, I would put most of the others ahead as they are very much amongst the best of all time in there position, especially entertainment wise. ROmario in the area is the best I have seen, ROnaldo simply the best striker of all time and second best player I have seen in my lifetime personally, Ronaldhino was just a pure joy to watch entertainment wise and the magic Rivaldo provided for a couple of seasons winning Barcelona titles seems very under estimated on here, he was simply phenomenal for a period some of the goals he scored......all did things hardlly any other players have done. Kaka was superb, but maybe under playing, a lot of it was his ability to turn pace with or without the ball and great finishing, it didnt stand out in terms of originality, he just did it better than most
That Brazil NT was the major favorite for the WC 94, not the same for the Dutch NT in 88. Bebeto, Dunga were great. Their defence was better than Dutch NT defense with Jorginho, Marcio Santos etc, probably the best defense of the tournament along with Italy's, conceded the least number of goals..
Baggio easily matches Romario in that tournament, was way more creative, had more dramatic moments and would be considered the king of WC 94 if they did not lose on penalties. Oh I forgot, Romario's Barca teammate Stoichkov who scored more goals than Romario becoming the top goal scorer though playing for way inferior Bulgaria scoring against Italy, Germany and Argentina, way more impressive than what Romario dis as a striker and won Ballon D'or that year.
The Dutch NT beat Germany in 88, the heavy favorites, in Germany in the semis against all odds with Van Basten's goal not to mention Van Basten's unforgettable goal in the final. Romario was nowhere to be seen against Italy in the final. Nobody comes close to Van Basten in that tournament in EC 1988 while there were multiple player equally or more influential than Romario in 94 WC.
If you are not aware: Van Basten won below:
3 times Ballon D'or, 2 times Serie A top scorer, 4 times Eredivisie top scorer in 6 years , 1 Golden Boot , 1 time Fifa world player of the year
not to mention him being the main guy in one of the most dominant teams of all time at AC Milan winning CLs, Serie As multiple times in the most competitive era of Serie A.. He would easily win all these Ballon D'ors 3 times with the South American players included as well. Retrospectively, Pele was given 7, Maradona 2, and Romario "0" Ballon D'ors..At most, Romario could win 1 Ballon D'or due to winning the WC while Stoichkov and Baggio were equally or even more impressive that season.. Romario might be considered having a single Ballon D'or worthy season in 94 due to WC though got destroyed 4-0 by Milan in the CL final in the same season..
Aren't you the same guy that thinks Bundesliga is as strong as Premier League or La Liga? Case closed..
Yeah, I remember him being useless against Milan in CL 94 final in an embarrassing 4-0 defeat at the top club stage where Barca was the favorites with 33 year old Massaro outperforming him, that's how he performed in the biggest game of his club career.. did Romario win any European title?
clueless as usual, how can you compare the golden age of Serie A with many of the world's top players involved between 1987-1992 with the Dutch league? imagine calling people reductive when they tell the obvious truth. It seems, in your own world, all leagues are created equal and whoever disagrees which is almost all football fans, they are being reductive
go check Van Basten's legendary performance in the EC 1988, his CL final performances.
Romario could not score against Italy in the final at the biggest game of his NT career, saved by Baggio & Baresi's pk misses and got destroyed in the biggest game of his club career, his one & only CL final.. Van Basten's club performances at any stage local/CL >>>>>> Romario's
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What about Suarez?
That's Nesta
They were not the major favourites for that World Cup. They were co-favourites with Germany as far as the odds were concerned, but Brazil are always up there in the odds. No one in Brazil thought they were favourites and they had a difficult qualifying campaign. Brazil have won the World Cup 5 times, and of those 5 teams, the 94 team has by far the least legendary players. Their one all time great attacking player was Romario. Bebeto was also quality, but not an all time legend.
Baggio was great but we are not talking about him. Romario has the WC and the WC Golden ball and Baggio doesn't, sadly for him. Awesome player though.
And how did Holland and MVB do in the World Cup 90 when they were favourites? The World Cup is ten times bigger than the Euros as a football tournament, the fact that you are trying to equate them doesn't speak well of your knowledge.
And Romario was top scorer in the UEFA Champions League twice, in La Liga once, in the campeonato 7 times, the Brazilian league 3 times, in the Brazilian Cup twice, in the Dutch league 3 times, in the Dutch Cup twice, was FIFA world player of the year, was Dutch and South American Player of the Year, has a World Cup Golden ball and is a World Cup winner and twice a Copa America Champion. In 1989 Brazil played world champions Argentina and Maradona in the Copa America final group stage and Romario and Bebeto destroyed them. Romario also scored the winning goal in the final against Uruguay.
Retrospectively, Romario was actually given one Ballon D'Or. But the retrospective awards don't make sense anyway, because how would Maradona only be given awards for 86 and 90? He deserved more in the 80s (e.g. 87). If it was done properly, Zico and a bunch of other South Americans would have won awards. But they only gave awards to 5 South Americans, and one of them was Romario.
But if you're so keen on the legitimacy of the new awards, perhaps you'd like to explain why they gave Stoichkov's one to Romario, seeing as you were so full of praise for Hristo's 94 season earlier
Never actually said that. You'll have to go back and read what I wrote properly. I was calling for greater respect for other leagues.
Yeah, I remember him being useless against Milan in CL 94 final in an embarrassing 4-0 defeat at the top club stage where Barca was the favorites with 33 year old Massaro outperforming him, that's how he performed in the biggest game of his club career
He won the World Cup. That dwarfs any European club title, especially back then.
clueless as usual, how can you compare the golden age of Serie A with many of the world's top players involved between 1987-1992 with the Dutch league? imagine calling people reductive when they tell the obvious truth. It seems, in your own world, all leagues are created equally and whoever disagrees which is almost all football fans, they are being reductive
I think you are the one who struggles more with people that disagree with you, to be quite honest.
they were great.
And Van Basten couldn't score in the World Cup. Also, you were just talking about how great Baggio was in that '94 tournament and yet he couldn't score either in the final? And missed his pen? Make your mind up....
Re the second part of your point, Romario was top scorer of the Champions League/European Cup more times than Van Basten, despite his short stay in Europe.. Less team success obviously, but it's not like he did nothing in that competition.
Also, the Champions League (or European Cup as it was before '92) didn't have the importance that it has now (since they got rid of the 3 foreigners rule and all the world's best players now operate in 4 or 5 leagues in Europe). It certainly wasn't viewed as anywhere near the level of the World Cup in prestige.
What I mean is that just as a young Brazilian phenom (like Romario or Ronaldo) in 2022 wouldn't go to PSV as their first European club (it would be strictly Real Madrid/Man City type landing spots), a player going from Barca to Brazil is not quite the same in 2022 as it was in 1995. The landscape has changed everywhere.
The CWC is not a complete guide and you can't really prove strength of leagues from knockout competitions, but it looks like the Brazilian clubs were very competitive in the early 2000s (and in the precursor to the CWC where it was EC winners v Copa Libertadores winners, the results were very evenly shared) but for the past 15 years or so the competition has been won virtually every time by a European team.
My belief is that Brazilian club football was on a par with (or even stronger than) European club football in the 60s and 70s, and it just slowly degraded throughout the following decades because of the talent drain and lack of resources. At the same time, after Bosman, more and more of the world's talent became concentrated in 4/5 top leagues in Europe, which hurt other countries but also the smaller teams and lower leagues in those same 4/5 countries.
I think it's much worse now than it was 20 years ago: at that time I don't think Romario was playing against incredibly weak competition. Vasco didn't even win the CWC that year, they were beaten by Corinthians.
They were not the major favourites for that World Cup. They were co-favourites with Germany as far as the odds were concerned, but Brazil are always up there in the odds. No one in Brazil thought they were favourites and they had a difficult qualifying campaign. Brazil have won the World Cup 5 times, and of those 5 teams, the 94 team has by far the least legendary players. Their one all time great attacking player was Romario. Bebeto was also quality, but not an all time legend.
Baggio was great but we are not talking about him. Romario has the WC and the WC Golden ball and Baggio doesn't, sadly for him. Awesome player though.
And how did Holland and MVB do in the World Cup 90 when they were favourites? The World Cup is ten times bigger than the Euros as a football tournament, the fact that you are trying to equate them doesn't speak well of your knowledge.
And Romario was top scorer in the UEFA Champions League twice, in La Liga once, in the campeonato 7 times, the Brazilian league 3 times, in the Brazilian Cup twice, in the Dutch league 3 times, in the Dutch Cup twice, was FIFA world player of the year, was Dutch and South American Player of the Year, has a World Cup Golden ball and is a World Cup winner and twice a Copa America Champion. In 1989 Brazil played world champions Argentina and Maradona in the Copa America final group stage and Romario and Bebeto destroyed them. Romario also scored the winning goal in the final against Uruguay.
Retrospectively, Romario was actually given one Ballon D'Or. But the retrospective awards don't make sense anyway, because how would Maradona only be given awards for 86 and 90? He deserved more in the 80s (e.g. 87). If it was done properly, Zico and a bunch of other South Americans would have won awards. But they only gave awards to 5 South Americans, and one of them was Romario.
But if you're so keen on the legitimacy of the new awards, perhaps you'd like to explain why they gave Stoichkov's one to Romario, seeing as you were so full of praise for Hristo's 94 season earlier
Never actually said that. You'll have to go back and read what I wrote properly. I was calling for greater respect for other leagues.
He won the World Cup. That dwarfs any European club title, especially back then.
I think you are the one who struggles more with people that disagree with you, to be quite honest.
they were great.
And Van Basten couldn't score in the World Cup. Also, you were just talking about how great Baggio was in that '94 tournament and yet he couldn't score either in the final? And missed his pen? Make your mind up....
Re the second part of your point, Romario was top scorer of the Champions League/European Cup more times than Van Basten, despite his short stay in Europe.. Less team success obviously, but it's not like he did nothing in that competition.
Also, the Champions League (or European Cup as it was before '92) didn't have the importance that it has now (since they got rid of the 3 foreigners rule and all the world's best players now operate in 4 or 5 leagues in Europe). It certainly wasn't viewed as anywhere near the level of the World Cup in prestige.
They were not the major favourites for that World Cup. They were co-favourites with Germany as far as the odds were concerned, but Brazil are always up there in the odds. No one in Brazil thought they were favourites and they had a difficult qualifying campaign. Brazil have won the World Cup 5 times, and of those 5 teams, the 94 team has by far the least legendary players. Their one all time great attacking player was Romario. Bebeto was also quality, but not an all time legend.
Baggio was great but we are not talking about him. Romario has the WC and the WC Golden ball and Baggio doesn't, sadly for him. Awesome player though.
And how did Holland and MVB do in the World Cup 90 when they were favourites? The World Cup is ten times bigger than the Euros as a football tournament, the fact that you are trying to equate them doesn't speak well of your knowledge.
And Romario was top scorer in the UEFA Champions League twice, in La Liga once, in the campeonato 7 times, the Brazilian league 3 times, in the Brazilian Cup twice, in the Dutch league 3 times, in the Dutch Cup twice, was FIFA world player of the year, was Dutch and South American Player of the Year, has a World Cup Golden ball and is a World Cup winner and twice a Copa America Champion. In 1989 Brazil played world champions Argentina and Maradona in the Copa America final group stage and Romario and Bebeto destroyed them. Romario also scored the winning goal in the final against Uruguay.
Retrospectively, Romario was actually given one Ballon D'Or. But the retrospective awards don't make sense anyway, because how would Maradona only be given awards for 86 and 90? He deserved more in the 80s (e.g. 87). If it was done properly, Zico and a bunch of other South Americans would have won awards. But they only gave awards to 5 South Americans, and one of them was Romario.
But if you're so keen on the legitimacy of the new awards, perhaps you'd like to explain why they gave Stoichkov's one to Romario, seeing as you were so full of praise for Hristo's 94 season earlier
Never actually said that. You'll have to go back and read what I wrote properly. I was calling for greater respect for other leagues.
He won the World Cup. That dwarfs any European club title, especially back then.
I think you are the one who struggles more with people that disagree with you, to be quite honest.
they were great.
And Van Basten couldn't score in the World Cup. Also, you were just talking about how great Baggio was in that '94 tournament and yet he couldn't score either in the final? And missed his pen? Make your mind up....
Re the second part of your point, Romario was top scorer of the Champions League/European Cup more times than Van Basten, despite his short stay in Europe.. Less team success obviously, but it's not like he did nothing in that competition.
Also, the Champions League (or European Cup as it was before '92) didn't have the importance that it has now (since they got rid of the 3 foreigners rule and all the world's best players now operate in 4 or 5 leagues in Europe). It certainly wasn't viewed as anywhere near the level of the World Cup in prestige.
Imagine seeing Dutch league equivalent to Serie A Golden age
Imagine seeing 3 times Ballon D'or winner, 2 times CL winner, Serie A best player many times whose career was cut short equivalent to Romario with "0" cups in Europe who had spent 2 years at Barca and the rest in farmers Dutch league
Imagine seeing WC with 3 European semi-finalists as ten times more challenging than EC but not seeing 90s Serie A competition ten times more challenging than the Dutch league
Imagine not knowing Baggio would be the MVP had Italy won in penalties in 94
Imagine saying the top European competition European Cup (CL now) did not have the same importance as now (yet Romario failed to win anything in this unimportant tournament)
Imagine supporting a player that was useless in the biggest games of his club/NT career vs another one that shone in the biggest finals in his career
Imagine thinking a great WC performance is all that needed for a player to be greater than another player
Imagine thinking people care about Brazilian league records when all the top Brazilian players play in Europe
Let's not derail the Kaka thread any further..
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Imagine seeing Dutch league equivalent to Serie A Golden age
Imagine seeing 3 times Ballon D'or winner, 2 times CL winner, Serie A best player many times whose career was cut short equivalent to Romario with "0" cups in Europe who had spent 2 years at Barca and the rest in farmers Dutch league
Imagine seeing WC with 3 European semi-finalists as ten times more challenging than EC but not seeing Serie A competition ten times more challenging than the Dutch league
Imagine not knowing Baggio would be the MVP had Italy won in penalties in 94
Imagine saying the top European competition European Cup (CL now) did not have the same importance as now (yet Romario failed to win anything in this unimportant tournament)
Imagine supporting a player that was useless in the biggest games of his club/NT career vs another one that shone in the biggest finals in his career
Imagine thinking a great WC performance is all that needed for a player to be greater than another player
Imagine thinking people care about Brazilian league records when all the top Brazilian players play in Europe
Let's not derail the Kaka thread any further..
I honestly don't think you ever watched Romario play outside of a handful of games, so you're right, it's best not to derail the thread any further because a lot of statements you've made here prove that you're not very knowledgeable on his career. Which is a shame.
Right, Kaka. Brilliant player, one of a handful to win the Ballon D'Or, the European Cup and the World Cup (although I think he played about 8 minutes in that tournament).
Second tier verging on the third.
Yeah, just like you giving me the impression that you haven't watched more than a couple Serie A games, do not have much idea on what Van Basten means to the football world, do not know much about the value of Serie A, Van Basten led AC Milan, CL, EC, Ballon D'ors etc for the football world.. The fact that almost everyone is on Van Basten's side on this thread shows how clueless you are..
As for Kaka, brilliant player, one of AC Milan & Serie A all time greats..
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I've watched literally hundreds of Serie A games but I'm not a Juventus fan so I can perhaps see more clearly than you that you can be a great player without playing in it. I'm not sure why you think a few people disagreeing with me on here (if they do) means they're right. That's not how the truth works.
Here's the FIFA player of the Century poll again, explain why Romario is ranked above Van Basten.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_Player_of_the_Century
Very few people would argue Romario is better, very few people would say Bundesliga is at a similar level to Premier League/La Liga, and WC is 10 times better than EC, Ballon D'ors do not matter etc. and many other weird claims, so there is a clear pattern in your posts...
Your argument style works like this: whatever my boy wins is a "major award/trophy" and whatever he couldn't win is nothing, can be ignored regardless of whether they are Ballon D'ors. CLs, Serie As, ECs, etc. etc. That's why it is hard to take your posts seriously, hard to argue against someone who is clueless about simple things.. Oh Van Basten was dominating Serie A in its golden age while Romario was statpadding in the Dutch league, does not matter, Van Basten had 3 Ballon D'ors, does not matter, Van Basten won the EC in 1988 showing one of the most spectacular performances ever in an international tournament, does not matter, WCs are 10 times better than ECs, he won 2 CLs, does not matter are not that important but but Brazilian league awards are so important and many other weird things..
oh the great internet poll .. you really have not much clue on what to take as serious info and what not..
the same poll shows Eusebio 3rd and R9 7th and Cruyff 13th
Can you now explain why Cruyff an easy top 5 player of all time is 13th? why Gerd Muller is not there? How Eusebio is 3rd? etc. etc. etc.
Edit: Just noticed in the bottom of your link, there is a proper ranking with no Eusebio.. Cruyff 5th and Muller in the top 10, shows how useless that internet poll is, even FIFA thought the poll results were useless and had to do another one this time voted by a Grand Jury
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I'm sure lots of people would argue Romario is better.
The Bundesliga is one of the top 4 leagues, and the point I was making was about Lewa's record not being compromised because he plays there. Please don't try and misrepresent my statements.
The World Cup is the biggest prize in football. If you don't know that, you don't know this sport. It's that simple.
When did I say the Ballon D'Or doesn't matter? I said it was a European award when MVB won it. Maradona would have taken a couple off him if he was eligible, whatever the new awards say.
Nothing weird at all about any of those points, you just have to learn to handle people disagreeing with you without getting agitated, I would respectfully submit.
I may well be guilty of that but I think that's more your style. And I'm not clueless about anything. This is why I suspect you weren't around in those days, because you view all these things like people view them now. As evidenced by your attempt to try and downgrade the World Cup and competitions that are not the European Cup or outside the main European countries.
You referenced some of his performances and I said they were great. You've said nothing like that about Romario, so who is really being dismissive here?
Stop using the word 'weird' and words like "clueless'. You are only exposing your inability to handle a discussion. We are talking about former footballers, not your friends and family. There's no need to write angry sentences.
Do you think Van Basten would rather have a World Cup or 2 ECs with Milan? Do you think he would rather have a World Cup or a Euros trophy? That's my point.
oh the great internet poll .. you really have not much knowledge on what to take as serious info and what not..
the same poll shows Eusebio 3rd and R9 7th and Cruyff 13th
Can you now explain why Cruyff an easy top 5 player of all time is 13th? why Gerd Muller is not there? How Eusebio is 3rd? etc. etc. etc.
Because many of the voters would not have seen some of the older players. That was obviously not an issue for Van Basten and Romario in 1999.
It was a worldwide poll and the people said they thought Romario was better. Again, this does not prove that Romario is better, but that it is not 'weird' to think so. Hopefully you can understand at least that, if nothing else.
You said WC is 10 times bigger than EC to hype up Romario, and I am the one trying to downgrade WC and upgrade EC?
It seems to me that you are desperately trying to downgrade EC and anything Romario could not achieve.. Sorry but anyone saying WC is ten times bigger than EC would be called clueless when most times you have at least 3 semi finalists from Europe in the WC.. Just like anyone trying to equate the Dutch league achievements with Serie A achievements in late 80s-90s, ignoring CL, Ballon D'ors, ECs etc... I can see why you are hyping up the world cup as if that's the only thing that matters since Romario does not have any major club trophy in European competititons and spent a very limited time in a top European league.. Messi or Cruyff in you world would probably be inferior to Romario because they do not have a WC..Also, it is not my fault that almost all top South Americans play in Europe in their prime and are mostly remembered for what they do in their European teams be it R9, Ronaldinho, Messi, Kaka, Maradona, Suarez, Rivaldo etc..
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He was great enough or the Oxord Learners' Dictionary to add the word "Kakaesque" to their pages.
His peak was short and he wasn’t anywhere near as good as the other four anyway. He only won Ballin D’or because he lead Milan winning CL, he wasn’t even the best player in the world that year (young Ronaldo was better).
I think his peak was at similar level to the likes of Nedved or VDV.
Anyway, here’s my tier of best/greatest Brazilian footballer of all time, I still consider him among the best of his era.
GOAT tier:
Pele
All time great tier:
Garrincha, Ronaldo
Iconic tier:
Zico, Socrates, Romario, Ronaldinho, Neymar
Best of era tier:
Rivaldo, Didi, Jairzinho, Tostao, Rivelino, Falcao, Carlos Alberto, Cafu, Carlos, Kaka, Bebeto, Marcelo, Gerson, Santos etc
I think his peak was at similar level to the likes of Nedved or VDV.
Anyway, here’s my tier of best/greatest Brazilian footballer of all time, I still consider him among the best of his era.
GOAT tier:
Pele
All time great tier:
Garrincha, Ronaldo
Iconic tier:
Zico, Socrates, Romario, Ronaldinho, Neymar
Best of era tier:
Rivaldo, Didi, Jairzinho, Tostao, Rivelino, Falcao, Carlos Alberto, Cafu, Carlos, Kaka, Bebeto, Marcelo, Gerson, Santos etc
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I swear the how good was Kaka question comes up at least every few months on here…
He was pretty good at football, especially against us. Until the next time.
He was pretty good at football, especially against us. Until the next time.
Kaka also had superior shooting, physicality and final ball. Very few people can instantly thread through balls splitting the defense as efficiently as Kaka did. His weight of the pass is perfect. Kaka is much better at counter attacks. His one man counter attacks were iconic. In terms of dribbling if its a long distance thing on a breakaway I'd say Kaka is one of the best ever at that. Once you give him any space he's unstoppable. He's much more direct than Ronaldinho.
In that CL winning season in 2007 Kaka absolutely carried them. He had 10 goals in that competition that season. He was their talisman. By 2007, that team wasn't as strong on the pitch as they looked on paper due to ageing.
Yeah I’d put him up there but probably a notch below the top four. Amongst centre-forwards his close control and 1v1 ability was only matched or bettered by Ronaldo and Romario. It’s a nice comparison because he shared Romário’s low centre of gravity and nifty footwork, trumps him for work rate, but wasn’t blessed with Romário’s 0-60 acceleration in the blink of an eye that left defenders for dead.
Suarez has a strong enough claim for best of the rest, but it depends on what you value. Most of the other guys around that level had different strengths. They tend to be either more dominant in the air (Kocsis, Seeler, Spencer, Lewandowski) or more thoroughbred goalscorers (Batistuta, Greaves). I’d have him at the top of that group, but imagine he’s quite a divisive player to rate. What do you think?
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Spoken like somebody who has only seen him play on Youtube videos.