How good was Kaka compared to his compatriots?

The holy trinity 68

The disparager
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Just how good was prime Kaka when comparing him to prime R9, Rivaldo, Romario and Ronaldinho?

He was devastating in his Ballon D'or year but is never really spoken about when talking about the other best Brazilian players of the 90's and 00's.
 
Just how good was prime Kaka when comparing him to prime R9, Rivaldo, Romario and Ronaldinho?

He was devastating in his Ballon D'or year but is never really spoken about when talking about the other best Brazilian players of the 90's and 00's.

I think his poor form at Real Madrid damaged his reputation. I remember he was considered a generational talent but never really continued his form after that magic season as you mentioned.

Edit: Never answered your question :lol:. Because of his flop at Real Madrid I think that all the above players are considered as better.
 
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I think it's fair enough he's not in the conversation. Ronaldinho at his best was better, and whilst people often bemoan how short his peak was (especially given what Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo have achieved since) Kaka's was even shorter.
 
Kaka gets harshly rated due to the Real Madrid stint. But I’d still put him 5th from that list
 
A quality player but not better than the ones you mentioned.
 
Think he was mentally broken by Madrid making a much bigger deal of signing Ronaldo and Benzema the same summer as him and never really hit his potential again.

Even with that, he didn't really play in the same position as any of the names you've mentioned and is still arguably Brazil's best creative midfielder this century.
 
I mean, compared to Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Romario and Ronaldinho? Yeah, he wasn't as good as those guys.... :D

Wasn't far off either though
 
It's not unfair on him really. He was a brilliant player who could be virtually unplayable on his day, but look at those names you're comparing him to.

Romario was an incredible striker who would easily be the best in the world if he was playing now, whilst R9 and Ronaldinho are amongst the best to have ever played the game. Kaka was just not that good.

Rivaldo is the closest, with some awful seasons interspersed with the brilliance, but his best was still better than Kaka's.
 
Just how good was prime Kaka when comparing him to prime R9, Rivaldo, Romario and Ronaldinho?
Ronaldo & Ronaldinho are untouchable.
Rivaldo & Romario were probably better at their peak, although it's hard to compare Romario to Kaka, very different players with very different skillsets.

It's not a shame to end up 5th on this list though. Wonderful, wonderful player, his incisive runs were so good.
 
Just how good was prime Kaka when comparing him to prime R9, Rivaldo, Romario and Ronaldinho?

He was devastating in his Ballon D'or year but is never really spoken about when talking about the other best Brazilian players of the 90's and 00's.
Those guys were all a bit better. But it’s no slight as they were four of the best players of all time. Kaka was quite a unique player with the searing pace of a winger, but the timing, craft and decision-making to play centrally. He’s a hard one to compare because he interpreted the 10 role in an unconventional way.
 
Just how good was prime Kaka when comparing him to prime R9, Rivaldo, Romario and Ronaldinho?

I would say all of them had better techniques and ball controlling skills than Kaka. Although he wasn’t a bum at this department, he was inferior to all of them. Kaka’s main strengths were acceleration, intelligence, iq,through-ball passing and dribbling at high-speed.

It’s pretty hard to compare to Ronaldo and Romario. Since they played in different positions and different skillsets. Howewer, Ronaldo and Romario were better players than him.

Compare Kaka with Ronaldinho, I would still say Ronaldinho was a better player too. Dinho had played a bit different position from Kaka, since he mainly operated from left-wing position and then drifted-it centrally. His role was a hybrid of 10/11(left winger) in 4-3-3. Kaka main position was central-attacking midfielder and second striker in 4-3-1-2 or 4-4-2 diamond. Compare skillset, Dinno was better than Kaka at techniques, ball controlling,dribbling, free-kick and long-passing. Kaka was better than Dinho at top speed, acceleration and close-range finishing( a bit).

I think Kaka was an inferior player to peak Rivaldo . They had different skillsets, strengths and weakness. So, I’m not going to compare their skillsets, Although both played similar positions.

Although he is inferior to all of them, I still love him the most. He is still a Milan-hero.
 
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His peak was fantastic, his pace through the middle of the pitch with the ball at feet made him close to unplayable.

Better question is who had the shorter peak, Kaka or Ronaldinho?
 
His peak was fantastic, his pace through the middle of the pitch with the ball at feet made him close to unplayable.

Better question is who had the shorter peak, Kaka or Ronaldinho?

Interesting question, both peak at similar period.

I would say Ronaldinho best form was during 2004 until 2007. In fact, his performances had slightly dropped during second half of 2005/2006.

Kaka best form was during 2005 until 2009 before his leaving to Madrid.
 
Think he was mentally broken by Madrid making a much bigger deal of signing Ronaldo and Benzema the same summer as him and never really hit his potential again.

Even with that, he didn't really play in the same position as any of the names you've mentioned and is still arguably Brazil's best creative midfielder this century.

He had dodgy knees at that point. Milan cashed in at the right moment knowing he was on his way down.
 
Kaká was excellent and a personal favorite of mine — a very unique and unnaturally explosive attacker who could thread the needle and stretch the field vertically and dovetail with the center forward. But using that quartet as a litmus test is a bit unfair; as a slightly exaggerated example, it's like comparing Ferrara (one of the most illustrious defenders of his era and the center-piece of a fearsome Juventus defense) with Baresi, Maldini and Nesta (quite simply better and bona fide greats of the game).

All four were superior on an individual basis for their respective roles (e.g. Romário was more cunning, tenacious and lethal while Ronaldinho had more flair and creativity in his repertoire), evidenced higher peaks (if only by a fine margin), and crucially (given their origins), enjoyed better stints at NATIONAL LEVEL — with at least one major tournament where they made a palpable difference in the Seleção's fortunes and etched their names in the history books:
  • Ronaldo: 1998 and 2002 World Cups, 1997 and 1999 Copa América.
  • Rivaldo: 1998 and 2002 World Cups, 1999 Copa América.
  • Romário: 1994 World Cup, 1989 and 1997 Copa América.
  • Ronaldinho: 2002 World Cup.
 
Kaká was excellent and a personal favorite of mine — a very unique and unnaturally explosive attacker who could thread the needle and stretch the field vertically and dovetail with the center forward. But using that quartet as a litmus test is a bit unfair; as a slightly exaggerated example, it's like comparing Ferrara (one of the most illustrious defenders of his era and the center-piece of a fearsome Juventus defense) with Baresi, Maldini and Nesta (quite simply better and bona fide greats of the game).

All four were superior on an individual basis for their respective roles (e.g. Romário was more cunning, tenacious and lethal while Ronaldinho had more flair and creativity in his repertoire), evidenced higher peaks (if only by a fine margin), and crucially (given their origins), enjoyed better stints at NATIONAL LEVEL — with at least one major tournament where they made a palpable difference in the Seleção's fortunes and etched their names in the history books:
  • Ronaldo: 1998 and 2002 World Cups, 1997 and 1999 Copa América.
  • Rivaldo: 1998 and 2002 World Cups, 1999 Copa América.
  • Romário: 1994 World Cup, 1989 and 1997 Copa América.
  • Ronaldinho: 2002 World Cup.

You @Fortitude and @harms make some great posts especially when talking about past greats.
 
Kaká was excellent and a personal favorite of mine — a very unique and unnaturally explosive attacker who could thread the needle and stretch the field vertically and dovetail with the center forward. But using that quartet as a litmus test is a bit unfair; as a slightly exaggerated example, it's like comparing Ferrara (one of the most illustrious defenders of his era and the center-piece of a fearsome Juventus defense) with Baresi, Maldini and Nesta (quite simply better and bona fide greats of the game).

All four were superior on an individual basis for their respective roles (e.g. Romário was more cunning, tenacious and lethal while Ronaldinho had more flair and creativity in his repertoire), evidenced higher peaks (if only by a fine margin), and crucially (given their origins), enjoyed better stints at NATIONAL LEVEL — with at least one major tournament where they made a palpable difference in the Seleção's fortunes and etched their names in the history books:
  • Ronaldo: 1998 and 2002 World Cups, 1997 and 1999 Copa América.
  • Rivaldo: 1998 and 2002 World Cups, 1999 Copa América.
  • Romário: 1994 World Cup, 1989 and 1997 Copa América.
  • Ronaldinho: 2002 World Cup.

And If you count Confederations Cup, I would say both Ronaldinho and Kaka had an impressive performances at this tournament too.

Ronaldinho was a top scorer and golden ball in 1999 Confederations Cup and he played superbly in almost all matches.

Kaka in 2009 Confederations Cup was for sure one of the best performances in Confederations Cup and got the golden-ball after wonderful performances throughout the tournament. Sadly he never been the same after 2009.
 
I think a better comparison would be Kaka or Neymar? Would probably go with Neymar overall but I would argue I preferred Kakas peak years to Neymar.
 
Brilliant player who at his peak was unplayable. Explosive pace, brilliant passer and finisher and a very direct player.

His problem was his peak was incredibly short.
 
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Brilliant player who at his peak was unplayable. Explosive pace, brilliant passer and finished and a very direct player.

His problem was his peak was incredibly short.
This is it really the nail on the head. He at his best was probably the best in the world 06/07 and that level was up there with the greatest of all time but his peak was short compared with the other best of all time
 
Kaka was probably less talented than the R's. I think he said that himself.

But he was the most profesional one. So I believe if not for the injuries, his peak would have been much longer.

I rank him above Rivaldo but below the other three.
 
This is it really the nail on the head. He at his best was probably the best in the world 06/07 and that level was up there with the greatest of all time but his peak was short compared with the other best of all time

I don't think he was up there at all.

Messi probably has 10 seasons for me better than Kaka's in 2006-2007.
 
I don't think Rivaldo had a better peak. Kaka 2005-2007 was the best player in the world, just after Ronaldinho and before CR and Messi.
 
Kaka' doesn't have as great or intense a body of work as the others to be compared to them. He and Ronaldinho, one might say had very short peaks, but if that is considered the case for Ronaldinho, we can say he indisputably shone brighter and his measure at the time he was the best player on the planet, was literally himself, i.e. outdoing his own outrageousness with something even more jaw-dropping.

His ability to run with the ball and actually use it correctly with both technique and intelligence at his absolute top speed is matched by few players, and the knowledge he had to be stopped before he got into his full stride made him a tactical nightmare for the opposition because he picked his moments to spring into life in a manner very few extremely quick dribblers do or did - i.e. with such a clear and obvious weapon, most players will use it at any and every opportunity, but Kaka' would optimise himself and his runs to goal to make them the most unexpected they could be. Just a very clever player.

Unfortunately, like so many other extremely fast runners, his knees simply could not cope, and when they went, he lost his edge because, although not reliant on pace, the mere threat of him bursting out the traps kept opposing players honest, uncertain and positionally error-prone (standing too far off him, or getting too tight and giving him direct lines behind said player to exploit), which enabled him to play without restriction or consideration, in the sense that these things were a given - the opposition had to fear his pace and acceleration, it wasn't optional. So with his legs gone, all of this evaporated and Kaka' couldn't adjust in the way Ronaldo did, as an example.

It's a tragic loss as Kaka's story had only reached the exposition and we didn't get to see it told as the writer had intended - I feel his legacy would have been a notch or two higher had his injuries not occurred because his intelligence married and entwined with his game to a world class level, which wouldn't have been 'found out' rather, having an organic conclusion when he hit his degrading pace years.

As others have stated, Kaka's technical level was not on par with the others mentioned, which is no slight, given we're talking about magicians and conjurers here who could execute pretty much whatever came to mind at the drop of a hat - Kaka' couldn't do that; his execution was linear and predictable by comparison and he had to fashion his windows of opportunity in less improvisational ways. You won't see the same kind of array of plays from him as any of the others because it wasn't in his locker relative to them, but what you did know is, like Robben, what he was gunning for was going to be very difficult to stop even if the path he was taking to work the opportunity was clear and apparent.

I'd also say Kaka' was never 'the' man or the sole hope of his team in the heroic fashion that can be ascribed to the others. Sure, he won a WPOTY, and he could produce sublime moments, but he couldn't concertedly distract swathes of opposing players over 90 minutes over picking and choosing his defining moments. Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Rivaldo and Romario all had the pressure and expectation of being full-time distractions against any opposition under any conditions and circumstances, in a manner and spotlight lesser players wilt under. It could be said that this pressure ruined an even brighter legacy for Ronaldinho as 'his' World Cup '06 never materialised at a time when it was supposed to be his crowning glory. Kaka' never had a 'his' anything, which is a bigger degree of separation for him than anything else I've written apart from possibly his knees. If you're not that guy in such company, then you're playing second fiddle to it, which was where Kaka' ultimately got to during his pre-injury days.

All of this is relative, however. Comparing most anyone to such names will have a similar outcome, so it's not a slight on Kaka', more a reflection of what he is being matched up with. He was a seriously impressive player who did the best his ability permitted him to do until his career was curtailed. I don't know if he could have contested for more WPOTY's because the eclipse was just around the corner, but I doubt his place as a constant top 5-10 player in the world would have ever been in jeopardy whilst he was still anything like the athlete he was.
 
Ronaldo & Ronaldinho are untouchable.
Rivaldo & Romario were probably better at their peak, although it's hard to compare Romario to Kaka, very different players with very different skillsets.

It's not a shame to end up 5th on this list though. Wonderful, wonderful player, his incisive runs were so good.
I feel maybe your underselling Romario a bit over here , he was mercurial and definitely has a case to be the greatest Brazilian striker above Ronaldo himself

Though I agree pretty much the rest of your post though perhaps I put kaka above rivaldo peak for peak.
 
Kaka' doesn't have as great or intense a body of work as the others to be compared to them. He and Ronaldinho, one might say had very short peaks, but if that is considered the case for Ronaldinho, we can say he indisputably shone brighter and his measure at the time he was the best player on the planet, was literally himself, i.e. outdoing his own outrageousness with something even more jaw-dropping.

His ability to run with the ball and actually use it correctly with both technique and intelligence at his absolute top speed is matched by few players, and the knowledge he had to be stopped before he got into his full stride made him a tactical nightmare for the opposition because he picked his moments to spring into life in a manner very few extremely quick dribblers do or did - i.e. with such a clear and obvious weapon, most players will use it at any and every opportunity, but Kaka' would optimise himself and his runs to goal to make them the most unexpected they could be. Just a very clever player.

Unfortunately, like so many other extremely fast runners, his knees simply could not cope, and when they went, he lost his edge because, although not reliant on pace, the mere threat of him bursting out the traps kept opposing players honest, uncertain and positionally error-prone (standing too far off him, or getting too tight and giving him direct lines behind said player to exploit), which enabled him to play without restriction or consideration, in the sense that these things were a given - the opposition had to fear his pace and acceleration, it wasn't optional. So with his legs gone, all of this evaporated and Kaka' couldn't adjust in the way Ronaldo did, as an example.

It's a tragic loss as Kaka's story had only reached the exposition and we didn't get to see it told as the writer had intended - I feel his legacy would have been a notch or two higher had his injuries not occurred because his intelligence married and entwined with his game to a world class level, which wouldn't have been 'found out' rather, having an organic conclusion when he hit his degrading pace years.

As others have stated, Kaka's technical level was not on par with the others mentioned, which is no slight, given we're talking about magicians and conjurers here who could execute pretty much whatever came to mind at the drop of a hat - Kaka' couldn't do that; his execution was linear and predictable by comparison and he had to fashion his windows of opportunity in less improvisational ways. You won't see the same kind of array of plays from him as any of the others because it wasn't in his locker relative to them, but what you did know is, like Robben, what he was gunning for was going to be very difficult to stop even if the path he was taking to work the opportunity was clear and apparent.

I'd also say Kaka' was never 'the' man or the sole hope of his team in the heroic fashion that can be ascribed to the others. Sure, he won a WPOTY, and he could produce sublime moments, but he couldn't concertedly distract swathes of opposing players over 90 minutes over picking and choosing his defining moments. Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Rivaldo and Romario all had the pressure and expectation of being full-time distractions against any opposition under any conditions and circumstances, in a manner and spotlight lesser players wilt under. It could be said that this pressure ruined an even brighter legacy for Ronaldinho as 'his' World Cup '06 never materialised at a time when it was supposed to be his crowning glory. Kaka' never had a 'his' anything, which is a bigger degree of separation for him than anything else I've written apart from possibly his knees. If you're not that guy in such company, then you're playing second fiddle to it, which was where Kaka' ultimately got to during his pre-injury days.

All of this is relative, however. Comparing most anyone to such names will have a similar outcome, so it's not a slight on Kaka', more a reflection of what he is being matched up with. He was a seriously impressive player who did the best his ability permitted him to do until his career was curtailed. I don't know if he could have contested for more WPOTY's because the eclipse was just around the corner, but I doubt his place as a constant top 5-10 player in the world would have ever been in jeopardy whilst he was still anything like the athlete he was.
But he did indeed have his thing , that last hurray of a great generation and end of ac millan's shining European performances was to an enormous degree his, hell a united fan surely must remember those majestic semi final performances ( though in part aided by our ill timed injury crisis) and he further capped it off by I believe providing the two assists for inzaghi's match winning strikes.

Not many players could claim to have carried their team to an ucl glory as it's much more of an group effort, kaka definitely can and cemented his place in that regard.
 
Prime kaka was the best ever.
Simple really.
 
But he did indeed have his thing , that last hurray of a great generation and end of ac millan's shining European performances was to an enormous degree his, hell a united fan surely must remember those majestic semi final performances ( though in part aided by our ill timed injury crisis) and he further capped it off by I believe providing the two assists for inzaghi's match winning strikes.

Not many players could claim to have carried their team to an ucl glory as it's much more of an group effort, kaka definitely can and cemented his place in that regard.
He had a great run, but that's not the same as being 'the' man with all of the pressure and expectation on you and you alone. The others (with Rivaldo to a lesser degree) were expected/demanded to turn games and be the best player on the pitch in any and every game they played, perhaps to levels that weren't fair, even. Kaka' was always an exceptional cog in well oiled machines; he wasn't the player expected to start the engine and drive the vehicle all by himself. It's a different level of expectation to what he experienced.

Kaka' didn't reach that level. He might have, if his career wasn't cut down in what should have been his prime.

Edit: let me expand a little bit on this:

- Ronaldo potentially misses a World Cup final, a nation is devastated and lacks belief it can win the game without him. Despite being a great team with great players across the pitch.

- Romario isn't selected for a World Cup, a nation is outraged because with him next to Ronaldo, victory is surely guaranteed as far as perception goes.

- Ronaldinho is expected to have a Maradona-level World Cup in 2006... he falls well short of expectation and is never seen in the same light again, despite his heroics for Barcelona. This was his chance to enter the discussion at a table reserved for the best players of all time.

For his country, Rivaldo wasn't seen as a saviour in the same manner despite having that crown at Barcelona, so he is regarded differently to the others in this specific category.

Kaka' never had that kind of weight on his shoulders because he wasn't considered to be that level of player.
 
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He had a great run, but that's not the same as being 'the' man with all of the pressure and expectation on you and you alone. The others (with Rivaldo to a lesser degree) were expected/demanded to turn games and be the best player on the pitch in any and every game they played, perhaps to levels that weren't fair, even. Kaka' was always an exceptional cog in well oiled machines; he wasn't the player expected to start the engine and drive the vehicle all by himself. It's a different level of expectation to what he experienced.

Kaka' didn't reach that level. He might have, if his career wasn't cut down in what should have been his prime.
I agree with you in the sense that he didn't have the weight of the world on his shoulders like the others but I think concerning his 6/7 season That's a bit harsh as he didn't have the reputation to warrant such a pressure but performances wise he absolutely blew it away in that campaign.
I had a keen interest in that era of Millan and had it not been for him they absolutely would not have reached the heights they did , by the 7/8 season he did have the reputation and the pressure did mount on him but unfortunately by then his injuries were taking a toll.
 
Prime kaka was the best ever.
Simple really.

Best ever at what? He wasn't anywhere near the best. And what's his prime, 2 years? Ronaldinho's peak, for example, was better within the same 5 years. Both Ronaldos at their best were easily better, so was Messi. His one Ballon d'Or he only just beat Ronaldo to it, and Ronaldo got much better after that.
 
I remembers back in the day Kaka used to outperform Ronaldinho when both were at their peak for the national team. If I remember correctly, Kaka was better during the 2006 World Cup qualifiers and was better during the 2006 WC as well. But to answer the question, overall, Ronaldinho was better player as were the other R’s though
 
He had a great run, but that's not the same as being 'the' man with all of the pressure and expectation on you and you alone. The others (with Rivaldo to a lesser degree) were expected/demanded to turn games and be the best player on the pitch in any and every game they played, perhaps to levels that weren't fair, even. Kaka' was always an exceptional cog in well oiled machines; he wasn't the player expected to start the engine and drive the vehicle all by himself. It's a different level of expectation to what he experienced.

Kaka' didn't reach that level. He might have, if his career wasn't cut down in what should have been his prime.

Edit: let me expand a little bit on this:

- Ronaldo potentially misses a World Cup final, a nation is devastated and lacks belief it can win the game without him. Despite being a great team with great players across the pitch.

- Romario isn't selected for a World Cup, a nation is outraged because with him next to Ronaldo, victory is surely guaranteed as far as perception goes.

- Ronaldinho is expected to have a Maradona-level World Cup in 2006... he falls well short of expectation and is never seen in the same light again, despite his heroics for Barcelona. This was his chance to enter the discussion at a table reserved for the best players of all time.

For his country, Rivaldo wasn't seen as a saviour in the same manner despite having that crown at Barcelona, so he is regarded differently to the others in this specific category.

Kaka' never had that kind of weight on his shoulders because he wasn't considered to be that level of player.
Good post again. I’d only add that the pressure Rivaldo had to perform for Barcelona in order for that team to be competitive was higher than the others (bar Ronaldo at Inter who was a similarly singular talisman) because the base quality of the team was lower. Most of the time the defence was so leaky he could not afford many off-days. For Brazil as you say he did not have that same expectation, even though he ended up with the best international career along with Ronaldo.
 
I feel maybe your underselling Romario a bit over here , he was mercurial and definitely has a case to be the greatest Brazilian striker above Ronaldo himself

Though I agree pretty much the rest of your post though perhaps I put kaka above rivaldo peak for peak.
Since we’re talking about their peaks I don’t think that Romario can be put ahead of 96-99 Ronaldo, whose peak was as good as anyone’s in history of the game, including Maradona & Messi. Career-wise you can probably make a case for the former.

And I don’t think that I underestimate Romario, at least not by that much — for me he’s a mainstay in that runners up tier of GOAT strikers below Ronaldo, Müller and van Basten, which is an incredible achievement — Kaka won’t even make top-10 of a similar list of his positional counterparts.
 
Since we’re talking about their peaks I don’t think that Romario can be put ahead of 96-99 Ronaldo, whose peak was as good as anyone’s in history of the game, including Maradona & Messi. Career-wise you can probably make a case for the former.

And I don’t think that I underestimate Romario, at least not by that much — for me he’s a mainstay in that runners up tier of GOAT strikers below Ronaldo, Müller and van Basten, which is an incredible achievement — Kaka won’t even make top-10 of a similar list of his positional counterparts.

I would think Romario would be on the same tier as Van Basten, no?
 
I would think Romario would be on the same tier as Van Basten, no?
Not for me and generally people seem to rate van Basten higher. He was more all-rounded & his club career is more impressive, while Romário had made some questionable career decisions & not always gave it his best (and that’s with van Basten missing a few seasons due to an injury and retiring at what, 28, 29?).

Even if you compare individual awards, van Basten has 3 Ballon d’Ors to Romário’s one (I’m using France Football’s reevaluation that includes non-Europeans).
 
Since we’re talking about their peaks I don’t think that Romario can be put ahead of 96-99 Ronaldo, whose peak was as good as anyone’s in history of the game, including Maradona & Messi. Career-wise you can probably make a case for the former.

And I don’t think that I underestimate Romario, at least not by that much — for me he’s a mainstay in that runners up tier of GOAT strikers below Ronaldo, Müller and van Basten, which is an incredible achievement — Kaka won’t even make top-10 of a similar list of his positional counterparts.

I think Romario has a case to be considered better than R9 and I think he actually was better than Van Basten.
 
I would think Romario would be on the same tier as Van Basten, no?
I think it depends on where you draw the line before the next tier. I think most people would have Ronaldo, Muller, Van Basten and Romario as their top 4 strikers. So the question is whether Romario belongs closer to that group or as part of the next load of centre-forwards in Batistuta, Kocsis, Seeler, Henry, etc. Personally he feels more at home in that top group, albeit towards the bottom end.