I'm very sorry to deviate the topic again, but I have to say I find it extremely offensive to not sing the German hymn and show explicit disdain for the country when they provided you world class infrastructure and education your whole life(things that he surely wouldn't have received in Turkey), as if you were a "real" German(yeah, terribly phrased, I couldn't think of anything better. "Ethnic", maybe?). I would be very thankful and show appreciation for Germany my whole life if I were him(doesn't necessarily mean agreeing with all their political moves, obviously), even if some random people were mean to me on the streets or social media.
How good is Kevin De Bruyne?
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He put a target behind himself as far back as 2010 when he refused to sing the National anthem. If his football talents dwindled then those things will come forward. If you noticed these things don't extend to Khedira despite being of an ethnic background.
Yea I know it's crazy and no one will agree. As much as I like Kroos I still look at him as someone who could have been better and not play almost second fiddle to Modric.
First thing, let's not list down the things Matthaus has said because as great a player he was he's said done really daft things
I don't agree that Kroos didn't have the skill set. He most definitely did and showcased it at Leverkusen and Bayern. The point about tactics not supporting a CAM is exactly why Kroos was fantastic in that role, because he could easily fit into a 4-2-3-1 as a traditional CAM or in a 4-3-3 as a more offensive CM. He had the playmaking and goalscoring ability of a CAM but could also provide support in defending the center of the pitch. His strengths were not to sit back as a DLP and be consigned to distributing the ball.
I agree with @Zehner on this best Kroos position. He does not have the pace to play in the CAM position and he won't be given the space and time. Kroos is a little slow and likes to take his time to pick the passes. He is more of a control person and his ideal setup will be CM in a 433 like he does at Madrid.
Him getting injured v Juve in the runup to 2013 which allowed Robben to come in and Muller moved to CAM was what changed Bayerns game and won them the treble
I don't get why anyone should care about whether or not he sings the anthem, honestly.
And Khedira has a Tunisian background, not a Turkish one.
Let's take Emre Can or Ilkay Gündogan then. Especially Can never was in doubt and already captained Germany's U17. Gündogan was involved in this "Erdogan affair" together with Özil (Can simply refused to participate), but still was able to get the German goodwill back because he acted much smarter about this all. We could also talk about other players. There was never such a discussion about Mustafi or Boateng, I bet most people would not even know what exactly their ethnic background is, only that they have some.
It all became a topic for Özil simply because it appeared like he felt more Turkish than German, and then every single detail was looked at.
I think this is not really arguable at all. I'd confidently say that all German internationals with a migration background have faced discrimination because of their heritage. Boateng for instance was taken as an example by Gauland for somebody nobody wants as a neighbor. That aside, how smart they acted about it has nothing to with whether they were discriminated or not. Some just ignore it and get on, some lose their shit, some develop some sort of stockholm syndrome and some answer with overidentification with their heritage, such as Özil.
At the very (!) least they've been racially abused in Social Media comments. Moreover, how could anything else be the case when even 'ordinary' people with migration backgrounds regularly face discrimination in their everday lifes? Be it job applications, flat market or even trivial stuff like going to a nightclub. Stereotypes are omnipresent, how should they not extend to German internationals?
I don't think you necessarily need pace to be a successful CAM. He had shown ability to play in tight spaces when he was playing as a CAM, his goal against Dortmund in 2012-13 is a good illustration of that, one touch to control, one touch to feint past Hummels, another to get past Subotic and then a clean finish into the corner from the edge of the box.
Robben coming in in 2013 helped Bayern play a more counter attacking style, which suited playing against Barca definitely, but it's not as if Bayern weren't playing well before Kroos was injured, and lets not forget they did reach the UCL final the year before with Kroos playing that role and doing well. Same in 2014 with Germany where Schweinsteiger was the most defensive midfielder and Kroos-Khedira were interchanging an attacking role.
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An aside, I hate this GOAT term that seems to have crept into every sporting argument the last few years. GOAT = greatest of all time....that's not Modric.
Nothing personal, it's just always brought up in MMA, something else I enjoy, and really grates on me.
Up there with referring to individuals as a collective term.....you know, your Keanes, Gerrards and Lampards etc...
Boomer moment over!
I have a feeling he’s going to be sold in the summer. Already 32 (33 in june), coming off a big injury, and City tend to not let players stay past their expiration date
One of those overused buzz terms like ‘world class’ a good few years ago
From Wiki, just if people don’t think he will be considered a great -
De Bruyne has been named in the UEFA Champions League Squad of the Season, IFFHS Men's World Team and the ESM Team of the Yearfive times each, the FIFA FIFPRO World 11 four times, the UEFA Team of the Year three times, the France Football World XI, and the Bundesliga Team of the Year. He has also won the Premier League Playmaker of the Season three times, the PFA Players' Player of the Year twice, Manchester City's Player of the Year four times, the UEFA Champions League Midfielder of the Season, the Bundesliga Player of the Year, the Footballer of the Year (Germany), the Belgian Sportsman of the Year and the IFFHS World's Best Playmaker three times.
De Bruyne has been named in the UEFA Champions League Squad of the Season, IFFHS Men's World Team and the ESM Team of the Yearfive times each, the FIFA FIFPRO World 11 four times, the UEFA Team of the Year three times, the France Football World XI, and the Bundesliga Team of the Year. He has also won the Premier League Playmaker of the Season three times, the PFA Players' Player of the Year twice, Manchester City's Player of the Year four times, the UEFA Champions League Midfielder of the Season, the Bundesliga Player of the Year, the Footballer of the Year (Germany), the Belgian Sportsman of the Year and the IFFHS World's Best Playmaker three times.
Not that I don’t think he’s great, but what a load of random accolades
Whatever the acceptable buzzword is right now, KDB has earned it. Pure class. For most, world class.
He reminds me of a young Jesse Lingard.
I dislike that term but I agree with the logic.
KDB is an excellent player but many seem to be confusing him with a central midfielder or something. He’s an attacking midfielder through and through and hence should be judged so. Modric is a complete midfielder and also on a different level too. Even if we widen the midfielder term I’d have a few PL midfielder over him.
Doesn’t matter what people prefer. That’s not how teams get picked and hence he sits on the bench.
Very good point. Keeping Silva, Walker and KDB was key for Citeh this season and it may, may just be enough to get them over the line ( guiding Haaland and Foden the young stars).
If Citeh do not win the title, it will be interesting because I see a few of these players leaving. Citeh need a change now, you can feel it.
GK: Ederson
I think they generally play/played in different positions. Occasionally Scholes did play as a an attacking midfielder and in that position KDB is better.
Bayern was probably his most difficult job, only team he's been at that wasn't cheating by financially doping or paying off referees.
He joined a disjointed City who had only scraped into the UCL on goal difference. He has also been competing against 2 other English teams who have won the Champions League whilst he’s been here. It’s been a very competitive time in the PL and City have still dominated.
Stop fighting guys. He hasn't had one difficult job.
Depends on the expectations. Bayern signed him to improve their team, and that became really difficult due to Heynckes winning the treble and records on the way, that are still unbeaten. So Pep failed in that sense, as they played continuously on a very high level, but still got weaker than before him.
You're giving up too much in terms of being able to play in behind to shoehorn him in IMO. With Messi you want 2 players who can break the line - Eto'o/Henry, Villa/Pedro, Suarez/Neymar. You takeaway too much by removing that second threat.
It seems pointless to use him with Messi. Both play in similar areas and exert similar roles(when the team has the ball). One would negate the other(Messi would be more likely to prevail, I guess) in a similar way to what happened with Griezmann.
As a question to Bayern fans, how do you guys see the influence of LVG compared to Pep? I've heard a few times that LVG was seen as the real pioneer for Bayern becoming what they are now - maybe pioneer is the wrong word - but I hadn't realised his stint was seen as so important given he didn't win as much and it was relatively short.
There appears to be about 5 different topics being discussed in this thread
as for KDB, he’s pretty good
as for KDB, he’s pretty good
I agree. Doesn’t make an optimal team for me as it’s not worth breaking the midfield trio or the wide attack.
Messi simply does not work with De Bruyne. Everything in the final third defers to Messi, and Messi does all his best work toward the ball not away from it - any time De Bruyne is not playing Messi’s game, Messi is being under utilised; by playing Messi’s game, all of De Bruyne’s best attributes are nullified.
De Bruyne isn’t better at being Iniesta than Iniesta is, either way, De Bruyne has no constructive way to be in a team that optimises Messi because it dramatically reduces his own game.
De Bruyne isn’t better at being Iniesta than Iniesta is, either way, De Bruyne has no constructive way to be in a team that optimises Messi because it dramatically reduces his own game.
Whataboutism. Please stay on topics
That's also why I disagree with people saying that Neymar shouldn't have left Barcelona; he would never have become the elite playmaker that he became sharing space with Messi. Maybe choosing France was the big mistake(although I'm not sure many could have paid for him).
They play in almost identical areas. KdB plays in the same operational space as Messi, Muller and similar. He’s never getting in an all time Pep team as it means leaving out a wide forward. That’s no shame. Messi is the best ever. Take him out and KdB is good enough to shape the forward line around him.
One of the best 10's I've ever seen. The consistency and quality of his crossing and passing is just out of this world.
He always comes up clutch in big games too, like Arsenal last season, and always bags a goal against us.
There's not a team in the world he wouldn't be an automatic starter at his best.
He always comes up clutch in big games too, like Arsenal last season, and always bags a goal against us.
There's not a team in the world he wouldn't be an automatic starter at his best.
Neymar was an elite playmaker at Barcelona, and his relationship with Messi, along with his ability to play mostly through the areas of the pitch Messi doesn't like to occupy and still be extremely effective, was why that forward line worked so well and was so devastating
But also yes, as long as he played on Messi's team he would never be allowed to truly flourish as his team's main playmaker
I agree. But he chose the wrong league to go to. A huge step down and a bad decision.
For me, his talent is second only to Messi and when he retires, I'm sure he will be remembered as an underachiever despite a good career. The move to Paris played a big part in all this.
Not a Bayern fan, but at least I followed them closely:
LvG did give Bayern a style and identity which they didn't have in the previous years, they were in a way directionless and confused. And he did that by promoting and relying on a strong core of young players ("Müller always plays"), and also allowed other players to step up into leading roles (for example Schweinsteiger). He had his flaws, but his natural arrogance just fit the club well (on the other hand he himself acknowledged that there is never enough space in any club for both his and Uli Hoeneß' ego). So he really set the club on track for a decade.
Heynckes after him carefully adjusted and tuned the foundation LvG had left him, also the youngsters LvG had brought through really matured into reliable consistent top performers, which lead them to win the treble and break records in Heynckes' final season.
Pep did continue mostly like Heynckes - LvG's legacy was well in line with Pep's philosophy, so he as well carefully maintained the team and kept them performing on that ridiculuously high level in the league. But unlike Heynckes he failed repeatedly to keep the performances up until the very end of seasons. Which is why he did not break Heynckes league point record and why he did not reach a single CL final.
Actually when Pep left it was more the case that Bayern slowly shifted away from that possession/position play style that they used from LvG to Pep and slowly turned into a more physical, transitional team which peaked under Flick and won the sextuple in 2020.
Pep's legacy at Bayern is that he is the most reliable league winner in the history of the league. But that's all, he didn't bring a new style, he didn't break (meaningful) records, he didn't win the biggest titles. LvG reached a CL final with a squad that should have been far to young to win it (and lost), Pep didn't reach a final even when that squad had peaked.
In his first three seasons, he was a wing forward in a similar fashion to Rashford; his gameplay was mostly about making runs through defensive line to receive through balls from Messi or making 1-2s with Messi or Suárez. I wouldn't say he was more of a playmaker than the Uruguayan. Even his dribbling wasn't that impressive; it was shown basically in 1vs1 situations in the wing; I don't recall many great close control runs from that time. In his last season, he showed a lot more individuality; his dribbling was really great(that game againts Juventus
), but still he rarely had the oportunity to display his passing skills; he just couldn't go deep on the field to get that ball and starting creating, because Messi was there.In his first season for PSG alone, he showed way more great through balls and long balls than in his entire time at Barcelona. In a matter of a months, the guy became(or proved he was) a world class passer. Bar Messi's 14-15 and 18-19, that was the best season regarding chances creation I've ever seen. It was really a shame how it ended.
Also, De Bruyne's fans are probably not too happy with me. Sorry, guys.
I thought I was losing my mind coming in here reading that he’s better than Modric and would get a place in a Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets midfield.
I’m on board with him being the best CM in the PL but he’s not Modric and I don’t even think there’s much of an argument for it tbh.
The problem, he was doing it in ligue 1. No player can get recognition doing it in ligue 1 alone. He really should have stayed at Barca and taken over from an aging Measi or moved to the Premier league.In his first three seasons, he was a wing forward in a similar fashion to Rashford; his gameplay was mostly about making runs through defensive line to receive through balls from Messi or making 1-2s with Messi or Suárez. I wouldn't say he was more of a playmaker than the Uruguayan. Even his dribbling wasn't that impressive; it was shown basically in 1vs1 situations in the wing; I don't recall many great close control runs from that time. In his last season, he showed a lot more individuality; his dribbling was really great(that game againts Juventus
In his first season for PSG alone, he showed way more great through balls and long balls than in his entire time at Barcelona. In a matter of a months, the guy became(or proved he was) a world class passer. Bar Messi's 14-15 and 18-19, that was the best season regarding chances creation I've ever seen. It was really a shame how it ended.
Also, De Bruyne's fans are probably not too happy with me. Sorry, guys.
I mean yes and no. He was very much allowed to flex his playmaking chops, just not to the degree he showed for Brazil/when Messi was out because they still played largely through Messi
it's also true that Luis Enrique needed to convince Messi to stick to the right channels in order to give Neymar space, and once Messi stopped listening while it didn't actually affect the attack and Neymar and Messi in particular were better the closer they played somehow, but it did created huge structural problems for their defence
Wise words.
Pretty much.
It's not an indictment on De Bruyne that he wouldn't get into the best midfield of all-time.