How good is Kevin De Bruyne?

[padr81]

Peps best ever 11 imho. Good old false 9 formation.
With the ball:
--------------------------Neuer--------------------------
--------------Puyol--Boateng-Alaba------------
-------------------Lahm------Xavi------------------- //Think with these 2 theres no need for Biscuits or Rodri
------------------------------------------------------------
------------------KDB--------Iniesta----------------
Robben-----------Messi----------------Ribery
------------------------------------------------------------

The usual Pep thing when Lahm drops into RB, KDB and Iniesta drop back to make a 3 with Xavi after the press. Would concede a lot on the counter but would probably score 3 a game.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Peps best ever 11 imho. Good old false 9 formation.
With the ball:
--------------------------Neuer--------------------------
--------------Puyol--Boateng-Alaba------------
-------------------Lahm------Xavi------------------- //Think with these 2 theres no need for Biscuits or Rodri
------------------------------------------------------------
------------------KDB--------Iniesta----------------
Robben-----------Messi----------------Ribery
------------------------------------------------------------

The usual Pep thing when Lahm drops into RB, KDB and Iniesta drop back to make a 3 with Xavi after the press. Would concede a lot on the counter but would probably score 3 a game.

If you're going to put KDB in, this might be the best way to do it. Though I'd personally pick Pique over Puyol and I'd still opt for Villa over Ribery to optimize the front 3 even more.

 

[padr81]

If you're going to put KDB in, this might be the best way to do it. Though I'd personally pick Pique over Puyol and I'd still opt for Villa over Ribery to optimize the front 3 even more.

Fair I think Villa would score a ton from the left with Messi dropping deep and both him and KDB spamming through balls.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

So you don't think Buffon one of the best GK?

Did you read what I said? I noted that I wish It DIDNT have an impact on how people thought of individual players, I’m quite clearly saying it doesn’t affect my opinions.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

No but that’s purely because you aren’t splitting up the Barca trio. But if you don’t care about the lineup then he’s clearly in the top 3 with Xaviesta.

If you’re picking an 11 why wouldn’t you care about a line up? He isn’t as good as Xavi and Iniesta and Busquets is light years ahead as a DM.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I'm very surprised so many people are leaving out Robben in a best XI of players coached by Pep.

I don't see the point in forcing Messi out right(even with freedom to drift inside) when he was at his best(IMO) in a false 9 role coached by Pep.

If I had to make a best XI of Pep-coached players

Villa - Messi - Robben

Iniesta - Xavi
Busquets

Lahm - Puyol - Pique - Alves

Neuer

You could argue Ribery over Villa, but I think Villa fits in better with Messi/Robben. Don't see any point in breaking up the best midfield in history imo(especially when Messi drops deeper to make it a quartet).

The only two debatable points are I) Ribery vs Villa and II) Eto’o up top and Messi right

Rest of the team picks itself really

 

[giorno]

Almost all of them?

If you're making a combined XI of the 2011 Barcelona team and City's 2023 team, I'm not sure a single City player gets in. I suppose the best argument would be Bernardo Silva over Pedro on the right. Perhaps Ederson over Valdes, but that 1 seems negligible.

People will say Haaland, but then you force Messi away from his false 9 role(where IMO he's at his best), so I don't see that being beneficial.

Eh. I mean City have better players than Barcelona in a few roles but ultimately it's really hard to do combined XI from teams so dominant and successful...

Grealish? That has to be a joke right.

Bernardo and Graelish were vital to City last season thanks to their ability in pressing and willingness to track back. It's a choice based on building the best team rather than the best individuals. Team with Messi and Haaland, with Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets building up, guys like RIbery, Robben or De Bruyne become kind of redundant

 

[That_Bloke]

The problem for De Bruyne and his legacy is that he will always have to fight against the “City cheating” factor. People simply dont want to romanticize a team that has 115 charges pending and seemingly unlocked a way to legally cheat football. And when speaking about ranking players or all time XI’s and lists, that romantic nostalgia plays a HUGE part in people’s minds.

Only in some MU fans heads.

The rest don't care and will fully appreciate his legagy and what he brought to football. He's arguably the greatest midfielder the PL has ever seen and while he might not break into the midfield of the best team of all time, it wouldn't be because of his talent or lack thereof, but because how it worked as a unit.

 

[Spaghetti]

Peps best ever 11 imho. Good old false 9 formation.
With the ball:
--------------------------Neuer--------------------------
--------------Puyol--Boateng-Alaba------------
-------------------Lahm------Xavi------------------- //Think with these 2 theres no need for Biscuits or Rodri
------------------------------------------------------------
------------------KDB--------Iniesta----------------
Robben-----------Messi----------------Ribery
------------------------------------------------------------

The usual Pep thing when Lahm drops into RB, KDB and Iniesta drop back to make a 3 with Xavi after the press. Would concede a lot on the counter but would probably score 3 a game.

I’d put Messi on the right, and either Aguero, Haaland or Lewandowski up front.

I’d probably also mix it up a bit to include Rodri.

There needs to be more City than just 1 player; he’s been at City, and won more there, than at any of the others. And it was a more difficult job.

 

[norm87cro]

Intelligent, skillful, has vision and can shot and pass. And the best part he isnt from Latin America meaning he doesnt mind the english weather

 

[Oranges038]

I’d put Messi on the right, and either Aguero, Haaland or Lewandowski up front.

I’d probably also mix it up a bit to include Rodri.

There needs to be more City than just 1 player; he’s been at City, and won more there, than at any of the others. And it was a more difficult job.

Bayern was probably his most difficult job, only team he's been at that wasn't cheating by financially doping or paying off referees.

 

[Fortitude]

Find this thread so bizarre. De Bruyne comes back and has a couple of excellent league matches, thus conversation segues into does he make it into an all-time Pep team…… que?

Would at least make sense if these were some ultra important, latter stage CL games or NT performance rather than a few games in the league. That he’s then being peered with some of the biggest big game performers of the millennium adds that extra twist, given the context of how this discussion has come about.

Seems he’s massively benefitting from an age where people are not accustomed to seeing superstars anymore; obviously makes him stand out a mile given he is the only one operating in the league, and one of a handful on the planet right now.

 

[hasanejaz88]

He was not as good, I think Kroos was comfortably better.

Recency bias. I only know of @Zehner amongst Germany fans who thinks Kroos is comfortably better than Basti

Kroos was better at passing, other than that Schweinsteiger was much stronger defensively, scored more goals and played multiple positions in midfield at a very high level. Most of all, he was a fantastic leader, which Kroos definitely is not.

Funny thing is, Kroos was definitely more talented than Schweinsteiger and I feel he didn't even fulfill his potential. If he remained a CAM, like he was at the start of his career, he would've been even better. He had fantastic goalscoring and playmaking ability but he was then shoehorned into a DLP, which limited his impact offensively.

I know I mentioned above that Schweinsteiger was better at goalscoring and just said Kroos was fantastic, but that's talking about potential because in the end Kroos didn't end up showcasing that side.

 

[Karel Podolsky]

Did you read what I said? I noted that I wish It DIDNT have an impact on how people thought of individual players, I’m quite clearly saying it doesn’t affect my opinions.

Okay not you, but many people still think Buffon was the best ever GK* no matter scandals involving his teams.

Some also still mentioned Dani Alves in this thread.



*For me Buffon was better than Neuer. I am not sure about Lev Yashin.

 

[Hammondo]

Recency bias. I only know of @Zehner amongst Germany fans who thinks Kroos is comfortably better than Basti

Kroos was better at passing, other than that Schweinsteiger was much stronger defensively, scored more goals and played multiple positions in midfield at a very high level. Most of all, he was a fantastic leader, which Kroos definitely is not.

Funny thing is, Kroos was definitely more talented than Schweinsteiger and I feel he didn't even fulfill his potential. If he remained a CAM, like he was at the start of his career, he would've been even better. He had fantastic goalscoring and playmaking ability but he was then shoehorned into a DLP, which limited his impact offensively.

I know I mentioned above that Schweinsteiger was better at goalscoring and just said Kroos was fantastic, but that's talking about potential because in the end Kroos didn't end up showcasing that side.

Kroos dictated play with Modric for the most successful team of all time. He is a DLP, so he won't have the attacking stats that Schweinsteiger had, but he had a bigger impact.

 

[hasanejaz88]

Kroos dictated play with Modric for the most successful team of all time. He is a DLP, so he won't have the attacking stats that Schweinsteiger had, but he had a bigger impact.

I agree with that but Kroos being a DLP didn't start with Madrid, he was already playing that role at Bayern in his last season under Pep, who I blame for Kroos being made into that.

Kroos under Heynckes, at Bayern and Leverkusen, was his best version.

 

[Hammondo]

I agree with that but Kroos being a DLP didn't start with Madrid, he was already playing that role at Bayern in his last season under Pep, who I blame for Kroos being made into that.

Kroos under Heynckes, at Bayern and Leverkusen, was his best version.

Hard to respond to such a crazy claim.

 

[Zehner]

Recency bias. I only know of @Zehner amongst Germany fans who thinks Kroos is comfortably better than Basti

Kroos was better at passing, other than that Schweinsteiger was much stronger defensively, scored more goals and played multiple positions in midfield at a very high level. Most of all, he was a fantastic leader, which Kroos definitely is not.

Funny thing is, Kroos was definitely more talented than Schweinsteiger and I feel he didn't even fulfill his potential. If he remained a CAM, like he was at the start of his career, he would've been even better. He had fantastic goalscoring and playmaking ability but he was then shoehorned into a DLP, which limited his impact offensively.

I know I mentioned above that Schweinsteiger was better at goalscoring and just said Kroos was fantastic, but that's talking about potential because in the end Kroos didn't end up showcasing that side.

Kroos never had the skill set for a world class CAM and most systems during his peak didn't even feature a CAM. He's extremely underrated in Germany, though. Schweinsteiger might be more versatile but Kroos is so incredibly good at what he does that it doesn't really matter. Matthäus recently said that Kroos is the best German midfielder ever. I mean, Kroos probably has been playing at a world class level for at least 11 consecutive seasons and has arguably more CL-winning seasons than Schweinsteiger has world class ones since the latter's peak only stretched 4-5 seasons or so.

Schweinsteiger is a brillant midfielder in his own right but what Kroos does on the pitch is still so incredibly underrated.

 

[devaneios]

Kroos never had the skill set for a world class CAM and most systems during his peak didn't even feature a CAM. He's extremely underrated in Germany, though. Schweinsteiger might be more versatile but Kroos is so incredibly good at what he does that it doesn't really matter. Matthäus recently said that Kroos is the best German midfielder ever. I mean, Kroos probably has been playing at a world class level for at least 11 consecutive seasons and has arguably more CL-winning seasons than Schweinsteiger has world class ones since the latter's peak only stretched 4-5 seasons or so.

Schweinsteiger is a brillant midfielder in his own right but what Kroos does on the pitch is still so incredibly underrated.

Going a bit further off topic: how people in Germany regard Ozil, I mean, ignoring his political controversies?

 

[stefan92]

Going a bit further off topic: how people in Germany regard Ozil, I mean, ignoring his political controversies?

His political controversies are never out of the picture, he is one of those who is thought to have only played for Germany for prestige and money, not because his heart was in it. He pretty much is a non-entity in the German general view by now. Generally if people talk about him he is seen as a kind of lazy genius. His talent is acknowledged, but usually seen as wasted because he didn't work hard enough.

To get back on topic: Which is something I think KDB was never accused of, being lazy. Which comfortably puts KDB ahead of people like Özil, despite Özil having broken some assist records etc.

 

[Bwuk]

Neuer
Alves Dias Alaba Lahm
Busquets
Xavi Iniesta
de Bruyne
Messi Henry​

Henry? Pep chucked him for Pedro after a year if memory serves.

I don't think KdB gets into his all time team, and that's not a slate on KdB who's world class, it's just he'd be against Xavi and Iniesta.

For what it's worth, his best 11 for me would be;

Neuer
Alves - Pique - Puyol - Lahm
Busquets
Xavi - Iniesta
Robben - Messi - Villa​

 

[Zehner]

Going a bit further off topic: how people in Germany regard Ozil, I mean, ignoring his political controversies?

The opinion on Özil is so interwoven with his political controversies that I don't think you can really seperate one from the other. He's an idiot but the public was never really fair to him either. People were pissed off that he didn't sing the national anthem and his style of play generally isn't really appreciated as much as it deserves. Especially the casual Germany fans that aren't really interested in club football still prefer fighters and workers over artists, especially when the team struggles a bit.

Sometimes I wonder if the sort of ungrateful treatment he received from German fans contributed to his political positions. It may sound weird because stuff like the support for the Grey Wolves or even Erdogan is pretty much inexcusable but to me he doesn't seem like an evil guy. Supported lots of charity projects etc.

 

[hasanejaz88]

Hard to respond to such a crazy claim.

Yea I know it's crazy and no one will agree. As much as I like Kroos I still look at him as someone who could have been better and not play almost second fiddle to Modric.

Kroos never had the skill set for a world class CAM and most systems during his peak didn't even feature a CAM. He's extremely underrated in Germany, though. Schweinsteiger might be more versatile but Kroos is so incredibly good at what he does that it doesn't really matter. Matthäus recently said that Kroos is the best German midfielder ever. I mean, Kroos probably has been playing at a world class level for at least 11 consecutive seasons and has arguably more CL-winning seasons than Schweinsteiger has world class ones since the latter's peak only stretched 4-5 seasons or so.

Schweinsteiger is a brillant midfielder in his own right but what Kroos does on the pitch is still so incredibly underrated.

First thing, let's not list down the things Matthaus has said because as great a player he was he's said done really daft things

I don't agree that Kroos didn't have the skill set. He most definitely did and showcased it at Leverkusen and Bayern. The point about tactics not supporting a CAM is exactly why Kroos was fantastic in that role, because he could easily fit into a 4-2-3-1 as a traditional CAM or in a 4-3-3 as a more offensive CM. He had the playmaking and goalscoring ability of a CAM but could also provide support in defending the center of the pitch. His strengths were not to sit back as a DLP and be consigned to distributing the ball.

 

[antohan]

Team with Messi and Haaland, with Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets building up, guys like RIbery, Robben or De Bruyne become kind of redundant

I wouldn't mind some of that redundancy in our squad

 

[tomaldinho1]

The opinion on Özil is so interwoven with his political controversies that I don't think you can really seperate one from the other. He's an idiot but the public was never really fair to him either. People were pissed off that he didn't sing the national anthem and his style of play generally isn't really appreciated as much as it deserves. Especially the casual Germany fans that aren't really interested in club football still prefer fighters and workers over artists, especially when the team struggles a bit.

Sometimes I wonder if the sort of ungrateful treatment he received from German fans contributed to his political positions. It may sound weird because stuff like the support for the Grey Wolves or even Erdogan is pretty much inexcusable but to me he doesn't seem like an evil guy. Supported lots of charity projects etc.

Honestly, probably a case of having the wrong people around him and getting really bad advice/opinions. I always thought he got 'cancelled' because he attacked China over the Uighur situation and then money spoke, Arsenal bottled it and in reality what had he done wrong? Maybe the German media coverage was already negative then but I do think there are certain players who likely aren't super well educated and are quite susceptible - think of Le Tisseur and how mental he seems these days - who become politically very opinionated out of nowhere.

 

[stefan92]

Honestly, probably a case of having the wrong people around him and getting really bad advice/opinions. I always thought he got 'cancelled' because he attacked China over the Uighur situation and then money spoke, Arsenal bottled it and in reality what had he done wrong? Maybe the German media coverage was already negative then but I do think there are certain players who likely aren't super well educated and are quite susceptible - think of Le Tisseur and how mental he seems these days - who become politically very opinionated out of nowhere.

By the time the China discussion occured Özil was non-existent for the broad German public. There was barely any coverage about that. After that famous meeting with Erdogan, some other discussion about perceived racism towards him, he had simply became a Turk instead of a German in general perception and got similar media coverage other Turks playing on his level would have.

 

[Raees]

He’s not better than Modric. I think both are unquestionably world class but Modric has done so much more in his career and internationally has dragged Croatia to unprecedented levels.

No chance he's better than Modric. Modric is a GOAT midfielder, KDB is not a GOAT.

 

[tomaldinho1]

By the time the China discussion occured Özil was non-existent for the broad German public. There was barely any coverage about that. After that famous meeting with Erdogan, some other discussion about perceived racism towards him, he had simply became a Turk instead of a German in general perception and got similar media coverage other Turks playing on his level would have.

In that case I get the idea of German media pushing him away and his views developing because of that.

 

[Hammondo]

Yea I know it's crazy and no one will agree. As much as I like Kroos I still look at him as someone who could have been better and not play almost second fiddle to Modric.



First thing, let's not list down the things Matthaus has said because as great a player he was he's said done really daft things

I don't agree that Kroos didn't have the skill set. He most definitely did and showcased it at Leverkusen and Bayern. The point about tactics not supporting a CAM is exactly why Kroos was fantastic in that role, because he could easily fit into a 4-2-3-1 as a traditional CAM or in a 4-3-3 as a more offensive CM. He had the playmaking and goalscoring ability of a CAM but could also provide support in defending the center of the pitch. His strengths were not to sit back as a DLP and be consigned to distributing the ball.

He didn't play second fiddle to modric, he played a different role.

 

[Hammondo]

Yea I know it's crazy and no one will agree. As much as I like Kroos I still look at him as someone who could have been better and not play almost second fiddle to Modric.



First thing, let's not list down the things Matthaus has said because as great a player he was he's said done really daft things

I don't agree that Kroos didn't have the skill set. He most definitely did and showcased it at Leverkusen and Bayern. The point about tactics not supporting a CAM is exactly why Kroos was fantastic in that role, because he could easily fit into a 4-2-3-1 as a traditional CAM or in a 4-3-3 as a more offensive CM. He had the playmaking and goalscoring ability of a CAM but could also provide support in defending the center of the pitch. His strengths were not to sit back as a DLP and be consigned to distributing the ball.

He wasn't great in tight spaces or under pressure, he just wasn't that skillful player.

 

[Zehner]

Yea I know it's crazy and no one will agree. As much as I like Kroos I still look at him as someone who could have been better and not play almost second fiddle to Modric.



First thing, let's not list down the things Matthaus has said because as great a player he was he's said done really daft things

I don't agree that Kroos didn't have the skill set. He most definitely did and showcased it at Leverkusen and Bayern. The point about tactics not supporting a CAM is exactly why Kroos was fantastic in that role, because he could easily fit into a 4-2-3-1 as a traditional CAM or in a 4-3-3 as a more offensive CM. He had the playmaking and goalscoring ability of a CAM but could also provide support in defending the center of the pitch. His strengths were not to sit back as a DLP and be consigned to distributing the ball.

I don't think he could ever have been as effective as he is as a CM in a CAM role. He has a great shot and final pass in him but he was never agile or physical enough to operate between the lines or in the final third in general, especially not in the mid 10s when pressing really became mainstream. Being that close to goal actually robbed him of his greatest strengths: The incredibly accurate long passes both high and low as well as his football IQ that made it almost impossible to get close to him. As a CAM, it is not only about your shot, passing and vision but also about your ability to create the necessary space to get a shot off or play a through ball.

Honestly, probably a case of having the wrong people around him and getting really bad advice/opinions. I always thought he got 'cancelled' because he attacked China over the Uighur situation and then money spoke, Arsenal bottled it and in reality what had he done wrong? Maybe the German media coverage was already negative then but I do think there are certain players who likely aren't super well educated and are quite susceptible - think of Le Tisseur and how mental he seems these days - who become politically very opinionated out of nowhere.

He chose one of the worst moments in time to showcase his support for Erdogan. There were diplomatic tensions between Germany and Turkey back then so it pissed of both the left leaning people who despised Erdogan's autocratic tendencies as well as the right leaning people who antagonized him anway and saw himself confirmed. I think that was the tipping point for him since he never really felt loved by the German fans (rightfully so) and didn't really understand what he did wrong. Bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Erdogan and his likes probably had it easy to convince him. Erdogan gets criticized a lot in Germany for his positions but many people with Turkish heritage interpret it more as xenophobia (not entirely unwarranted, mind) and double down on their support because they love that he "stands up to the Germans" and all this stuff. I guess Özil got fully caught up in those dynamics.

 

[Zehner]

By the time the China discussion occured Özil was non-existent for the broad German public. There was barely any coverage about that. After that famous meeting with Erdogan, some other discussion about perceived racism towards him, he had simply became a Turk instead of a German in general perception and got similar media coverage other Turks playing on his level would have.

I don't think it was perceived racism. Or do you think the constant criticism of him would have been as fierce as it was if he didn't have Turkish heritage? I'm talking pre Erdogan image days by the way

 

[tomaldinho1]

He chose one of the worst moments in time to showcase his support for Erdogan. There were diplomatic tensions between Germany and Turkey back then so it pissed of both the left leaning people who despised Erdogan's autocratic tendencies as well as the right leaning people who antagonized him anway and saw himself confirmed. I think that was the tipping point for him since he never really felt loved by the German fans (rightfully so) and didn't really understand what he did wrong. Bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Erdogan and his likes probably had it easy to convince him. Erdogan gets criticized a lot in Germany for his positions but many people with Turkish heritage interpret it more as xenophobia (not entirely unwarranted, mind) and double down on their support because they love that he "stands up to the Germans" and all this stuff. I guess Özil got fully caught up in those dynamics.

I guess these things are sadly pretty common when you think about it, the double eagle celebration from guys like Shaqiri and Xhaka, Turkish players saluting to support their attack on the Kurds, now players getting in hot water for anything anti Israel on social media.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

If you’re picking an 11 why wouldn’t you care about a line up? He isn’t as good as Xavi and Iniesta and Busquets is light years ahead as a DM.

Because some people would rather just choose "4 best defenders, 3 best midfielders, 3 best attackers" instead of going for the most balanced formation/tactical setup when choosing all time XI's? Just look at the World XI every year, there's been many years it isn't the most balanced.

Not really a big deal, and no shit he's not as good as Busquets as a DM that wasn't my point.

 

[stefan92]

I don't think it was perceived racism. Or do you think the constant criticism of him would have been as fierce as it was if he didn't have Turkish heritage? I'm talking pre Erdogan image days by the way

I do think he perceived it as such. As I recall, the relationship between Germany and Özil went something like that:
G: You are a great talent! (around 2010)
G: Would you mind putting a shift in? Show some hard work? Give us something to show that you care? Maybe just sing the hymn to show that you want to play for our country? (around 2012-14)
Ö: You only criticise me because of my Turkish heritage!
G: Well... we see no identification with us and you don't seem to care. Is that so hard?
Ö: Racism!
G: Uhm... no? Maybe look at how nobody really has an issue with people like Khedira?
Ö: Still racism, and now let me prove it to you by supporting Erdogan! (in 2018)
G: WTF dude? Just be Turkish then and don't complain about being seen as such, when you clearly identify with them and their leader, who we don't like.

And that was about it.

Interestingly his criticism of China in 2020 actually got him positive responses in the German media - when it was covered at all, instead of him getting cancelled (as I just realized while trying to look up the timeline).

 

[Rossa]

Only in some MU fans heads.

The rest don't care and will fully appreciate his legagy and what he brought to football. He's arguably the greatest midfielder the PL has ever seen and while he might not break into the midfield of the best team of all time, it wouldn't be because of his talent or lack thereof, but because how it worked as a unit.

No, not really. Talk to Arsenal fans and Liverpool fans, and this will be the only thing we will agree on - City are cheats and nobody thinks their achievements are really worth anything. Thus, KDB will also suffer under the same opinions. Nobody would be saying he isn't a great player, but his legacy will be tainted by playing for City. If he had done the same for RM, he would have been idolized as a footballer to a much larger extent than he ever will playing for City. For him, that's a shame because I find nothing wrong with him, and he's a brilliant player.

 

[Statue of Limitations]

KDB is probably the best midfielder we've seen in PL since Scholesy.
He's very, very good.

 

[matherto]

Neuer
Alves Dias Alaba Lahm
Busquets
Xavi Iniesta
de Bruyne
Messi Henry​

About as good as it gets that isn't it?

Covers every base perfectly.

Technically incredible, players who can perform multiple roles, tactical flexibility, goals and assists galore.

As for KdB, why the feck didn't we try for him when he was at Wolfsburg. He's an astonishing footballer, one of my favourites to watch and one of the few reasons I'd ever watch a City game. Sadly Bernardo Silva is one of them too for the same reasons, as was David Silva before him and we should've gone for all three.

 

[devaneios]

His political controversies are never out of the picture, he is one of those who is thought to have only played for Germany for prestige and money, not because his heart was in it. He pretty much is a non-entity in the German general view by now. Generally if people talk about him he is seen as a kind of lazy genius. His talent is acknowledged, but usually seen as wasted because he didn't work hard enough.

To get back on topic: Which is something I think KDB was never accused of, being lazy. Which comfortably puts KDB ahead of people like Özil, despite Özil having broken some assist records etc.

The opinion on Özil is so interwoven with his political controversies that I don't think you can really seperate one from the other. He's an idiot but the public was never really fair to him either. People were pissed off that he didn't sing the national anthem and his style of play generally isn't really appreciated as much as it deserves. Especially the casual Germany fans that aren't really interested in club football still prefer fighters and workers over artists, especially when the team struggles a bit.

Sometimes I wonder if the sort of ungrateful treatment he received from German fans contributed to his political positions. It may sound weird because stuff like the support for the Grey Wolves or even Erdogan is pretty much inexcusable but to me he doesn't seem like an evil guy. Supported lots of charity projects etc.

Thanks. I'd give you likes if I could.

 

[Zehner]

I do think he perceived it as such. As I recall, the relationship between Germany and Özil went something like that:
G: You are a great talent! (around 2010)
G: Would you mind putting a shift in? Show some hard work? Give us something to show that you care? Maybe just sing the hymn to show that you want to play for our country? (around 2012-14)
Ö: You only criticise me because of my Turkish heritage!
G: Well... we see no identification with us and you don't seem to care. Is that so hard?
Ö: Racism!
G: Uhm... no? Maybe look at how nobody really has an issue with people like Khedira?
Ö: Still racism, and now let me prove it to you by supporting Erdogan! (in 2018)
G: WTF dude? Just be Turkish then and don't complain about being seen as such, when you clearly identify with them and their leader, who we don't like.

And that was about it.

Interestingly his criticism of China in 2020 actually got him positive responses in the German media - when it was covered at all, instead of him getting cancelled (as I just realized while trying to look up the timeline).

I think that's a bit too simple. IMO there are no two ways about racism being a thing. It is debatable whether or not the DFB itself was racist towards him but in terms of the German public, it is as clear as day. There have been nasty quotes about him and Gündogan by the AfD and co., there have been more than enough racist social media posts and in general the out of proportion criticism he often had to endure also smells like xenophobic scapegoating. That actually can't be stretched enough: Of course there were legits points of criticism about Özil's performances but he was undeniably one of our very best players. He was still criticized like few others and I think it is very naive to think it has nothing to do with his heritage. Not exclusively, mind, but many scapegoated him out of xenophobia. Obviously, he could have reacted differently to it. But to me this all smells like a self-fulfilling prophecy.