My God - what a pile of shite this is... You pack of gossiping pricks. Jopub - Gooner - you can feck off. Shao, when did Keano ever shout at the superstars ie. Giggs or Beckham? (I haven't ever seen him do it...) The man gets labelled a bully and thug by the tabloids and youse all assume you understand the man and his off field relationships with his teammates - arse. If the young players are so mature now, I'm sure they can ignore a tongue lashing from Keane now and again. I agree that his temper is sometimes misplaced - but I can't agree that it has a detrimental effect on the team. Fergie you ain't.
How does this Keane fiasco effect us? Discuss
- Thread starter ShAoLiN_ChRoNiC
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Fergie you are?
You're just another one who has totally ignored the possibility that something is wrong in our camp.
I'm not saying its for sure, but they certainly seem to be finding it alot harder to fight for that shirt. And this is athletes in their prime. I think Liverpool games are perfect examples of ths, we get outfought.
And to say Keane never shouts at someone is a joke. I reckon everyone has had an earful from him.
I also reckon more than one of them hate that kind of approach, whether he is right or not. Its a fact that some managers treat some players with care because they are more fragile. Its a fact that this is successful, its certainly not unsuccessful.
But oh no this is Roy Keane and he is invincible. He is always right. If he shouts it means everything is fine. Nothing bad can come from it whatsoever.
Could you imagine Keane in any other job? He'd be a laughing stock. It would cause rebelliousnous rather than obedience. In this case we seek neither, I'd prefer co-operation.
The chaos and madness he exudes can only be good if harnessed correctly, not left spraying all over the place.
You're just another one who has totally ignored the possibility that something is wrong in our camp.
I'm not saying its for sure, but they certainly seem to be finding it alot harder to fight for that shirt. And this is athletes in their prime. I think Liverpool games are perfect examples of ths, we get outfought.
And to say Keane never shouts at someone is a joke. I reckon everyone has had an earful from him.
I also reckon more than one of them hate that kind of approach, whether he is right or not. Its a fact that some managers treat some players with care because they are more fragile. Its a fact that this is successful, its certainly not unsuccessful.
But oh no this is Roy Keane and he is invincible. He is always right. If he shouts it means everything is fine. Nothing bad can come from it whatsoever.
Could you imagine Keane in any other job? He'd be a laughing stock. It would cause rebelliousnous rather than obedience. In this case we seek neither, I'd prefer co-operation.
The chaos and madness he exudes can only be good if harnessed correctly, not left spraying all over the place.
Originally posted by reddermo:
[QB]Re Turin 1999
" The minute he was booked and out of the final, he seemed to redouble his efforts to get the team there. It was the most emphatic display of SELFLESSNESS I have ever seen on a football field. Pounding every blade of grass, competing as if he would rather die of exhaustion than lose, he inspired all around him. I felt it an honour to be associated with such a player" <hr></blockquote>
I felt exactly the same. But then, looking at it from a different perspective, you could say knowing he was out of the final HE NEEDED TO BE THE ONE TAKING THEM THERE. That would not be selflessness, rather the opposite.
Either theory could be true. Personally, I felt what you say but maybe it was the other scenario. It all depends on your mindset and what you choose to perceive.
NO, don't start going on about me or anyone else knocking Keane, that's not the issue. I absolutely love the guy but I have to accept Shao has raised a potential issue here (which, as I said earlier, would probably be more relevant with outsiders like Veron).
Not having won anything is not the problem. The problem is that WE SUCKED in the process, particularly as a collective unit. Where was that unstoppable team spirit? It wasn't really there, was it? At times they looked like a bunch of nancies.
If we agree on that, then we have to look at the elements that have to do with that and one of them is the captain's role. What happened with Ireland was a trigger to explore that.
Shao, you'd better get that video!I don't question you making it up but I can't see why you would strangle someone who has just scored!?!?! Remember goal celebrations can be quite violent at times!!!! Even with the typical picking up, I've actually known of a guy getting a back injury after the goalscorer jumped on him with too much momentum! <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />
My God - what a pile of shite this is... You pack of gossiping pricks. Jopub - Gooner - you can feck off. Shao, when did Keano ever shout at the superstars ie. Giggs or Beckham? (I haven't ever seen him do it...) The man gets labelled a bully and thug by the tabloids and youse all assume you understand the man and his off field relationships with his teammates - arse. If the young players are so mature now, I'm sure they can ignore a tongue lashing from Keane now and again. I agree that his temper is sometimes misplaced - but I can't agree that it has a detrimental effect on the team. Fergie you ain't.
no shiete.
i can't believe the crap on here from the so called Man United fans. the tabloids seem to have the edge over these ton of retarded retards. even my left nut is hard to convince (and just got offended).
hey retards, f*ck you.
now go back to the Arse board.
no shiete.
i can't believe the crap on here from the so called Man United fans. the tabloids seem to have the edge over these ton of retarded retards. even my left nut is hard to convince (and just got offended).
hey retards, f*ck you.
now go back to the Arse board.
Originally posted by PhillipVIII:
[QBi can't believe the crap on here from the so called Man United fans. the tabloids seem to have the edge over these ton of retarded retards. even my left nut is hard to convince (and just got offended).
hey retards, f*ck you.
now go back to the Arse board.[/QB]<hr></blockquote>
So you refuse to accept the possibility that Veron (or Cisse, Ayala, or any other outsider we buy) could come back being a WC winner and not give a shit about Keane screaming at him. Worse, ignore him, or call him a loser...
I'm not worried about him commanding the homegrown players but he has a huge potential for upsetting "Stars". As I said earlier, my conclusion would not be dropping Keane but giving up on poncy twat prospects.
The issue is very much there for us to see/explore...
Originally posted by dicko:
<strong>
I feel that the problem is more likely to be in attitude and a lack of hunger.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
And the captain has nothing to do with that?
What is he there for then? Is publicly slating players who don't perform up to scratch the right way to go about it?
Was it? Is it? Will it continue to be?
I agree they needed a shake-up, I agree someone MUST speak up and say exactly what he did. Do you do it publicly? Privately within the group? One to one?
Do you do it at the end of the season when there is little chance of reacting? Halfway through the season? Beginning?
There you have a lot of choices, I am in no position to say which is the right one, I am not there with them. But the captain should and must know and act accordingly.
If players look complacent and lack the hunger factor, shouldn't the captain be questionned? Of course you can be a great captain and the player being the problem but most of the players have been consistent at only one thing throughout the year and that was just not being good enough when it was most needed.
Not one player, many. Shouldn't we wonder if the captain is not getting it right? <img src="graemlins/nervous.gif" border="0" alt="[Nervous]" />
dicko--We can agree that motivation might be needed in sports in a way not found acceptable in other work places, but the tenor of the posts not endorsing the immediate canonization of the Venerable Roy is that his primary means of "motivation," throwing tantrums like a five year old and physically intimidating/threatening his teammates, doesn't work on all other players, especially those who have reached a certain level of maturity, prominence, and achievement. To the extent different means are needed, the true leader must understand and adapt his style, to the extent possible, to accomodate and reach the individual player.
From what I've read on this site from people claiming to be knowledgeable on the subject (and articles they've posted), Mr. Keane does not appear to be the sort who wishes to lead by consensus, nor does he appear to adopt different tactics, or tact, for different situations or individuals. Obsessed with doing his best and achieving the highest levels he can at all times, Keane does not appear (from what I've read--no personal interviews and he's not a drinking buddy] to appreciate that others can harbor the same goals without employing the same means.
From what I've read on this site from people claiming to be knowledgeable on the subject (and articles they've posted), Mr. Keane does not appear to be the sort who wishes to lead by consensus, nor does he appear to adopt different tactics, or tact, for different situations or individuals. Obsessed with doing his best and achieving the highest levels he can at all times, Keane does not appear (from what I've read--no personal interviews and he's not a drinking buddy] to appreciate that others can harbor the same goals without employing the same means.
Antohan and FresnoBob.
The main point of my argument (but with only one sentence) was that last season United played better with Keano rather than without him. This seems to be a common thread on other posts in this forum. I am too lazy to check that out and will accept if it's not true but I seem to recall many writers seemed to specifically exclude Keano from criticism when summing up our 'poor' season. Players seem to respond to his constant urgings to keep trying.
I am not seeking canonisation of Roy. I know he has faults and his type of captaincy might be one dimensional. Perhaps it works for kids but not established internationals. However, the evidence last season is that we played better under his ranting and raving than we did without.
Finally, Antohan. Yes, part of the captain's role is to get the best out of players but ultimate responsibility rests with the individual. Too often we struggled without Keano. Nicky played as well as Keano but does not have the same presence.
The main point of my argument (but with only one sentence) was that last season United played better with Keano rather than without him. This seems to be a common thread on other posts in this forum. I am too lazy to check that out and will accept if it's not true but I seem to recall many writers seemed to specifically exclude Keano from criticism when summing up our 'poor' season. Players seem to respond to his constant urgings to keep trying.
I am not seeking canonisation of Roy. I know he has faults and his type of captaincy might be one dimensional. Perhaps it works for kids but not established internationals. However, the evidence last season is that we played better under his ranting and raving than we did without.
Finally, Antohan. Yes, part of the captain's role is to get the best out of players but ultimate responsibility rests with the individual. Too often we struggled without Keano. Nicky played as well as Keano but does not have the same presence.
Originally posted by dicko:
<strong>Finally, Antohan. Yes, part of the captain's role is to get the best out of players but ultimate responsibility rests with the individual. Too often we struggled without Keano. Nicky played as well as Keano but does not have the same presence.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I have agreed with your point all along. In fact, Keane's style of captaincy is a very "in the pitch, in the heat" type and he excels at that.
United play better with him, I'm not surprised because he is bloody marvelous.
My issue is the captain's role goes beyond the pitch. As you point out, when Keane is not there the team loses the plot determination-wise. I know they are partly to blame for that but the captain has to lead the team in such a way that their mental strengths and hunger is formed and taken to the pitch, regardless of him being there.
Essentially, there is a lot more to captaincy than just how you drive the team during the game (which Keane excels at, I repeat). It is the off the pitch part we don't see and we don't know about. When he says players don't have his number it hints there isn't much else going off the pitch. We know Keane's strong personality might not help the rise of other "referential players" within the team in case he is not there.
Take Barcelona, Keane was not tere but then, we had Schmeichel! <img src="graemlins/devil.gif" border="0" alt="[Devil]" /> Sherigham? Stam? Solid stuff.
Blanc could have commanded in a similar way, has he (beyond the defence)? How should Keane work relative to Blanc, Butt or Beckham himself in terms of getting them to be in a position to carry the standard when he is not there? What will happen when Keane finally retires?
I think these are all important issues to explore and we shouldn't turn a blind eye to them. There is another thread somewhere already talking about Hargreaves replacing Keane in the long run. Hargreaves? Do you think he can have the on-the-pitch impact Keane does? I don't and I'm worried that Keane might not know or be capable to mentor a new KEANO <img src="graemlins/keano.gif" border="0" alt="[Keano]" />
Hey some good points - I'd given up on this thread.
dicko - I dont think Keane is actually motivating though. More like moaning and bitching. Think about it.
Going to the press time after time, moaning about poor performances AFTER the seasons over. Going to TV to moan about how MM mistreated him. How the players betrayed him. So Utd players let millions of people down and the Irish players stabbed him in the back? er...one man army?
None of those things achieved anything whatsoever. I know that football is different, but few other teams have a player like this and its no coincidence that most international countries avoid these kind of characters.
Football is like war. The soldiers need to be behind you and around you: with you, not underneath you. Cowering in fear as you command them to do better. This is soldiers we're talking about - discipline = high, lots of ordrs, and screaming etc. But when defeated, the commander wont start bitching at them to the whole country. They fight together, they win AND lose together.
To the guy who thinks we cant get by without Roy Keane, Ireland did pretty well.
I've pretty much said all I have to say about this topic now. Keane will stay and he will continue to do what he does, good or bad. Lets hope all the players can do better next season.
dicko - I dont think Keane is actually motivating though. More like moaning and bitching. Think about it.
Going to the press time after time, moaning about poor performances AFTER the seasons over. Going to TV to moan about how MM mistreated him. How the players betrayed him. So Utd players let millions of people down and the Irish players stabbed him in the back? er...one man army?
None of those things achieved anything whatsoever. I know that football is different, but few other teams have a player like this and its no coincidence that most international countries avoid these kind of characters.
Football is like war. The soldiers need to be behind you and around you: with you, not underneath you. Cowering in fear as you command them to do better. This is soldiers we're talking about - discipline = high, lots of ordrs, and screaming etc. But when defeated, the commander wont start bitching at them to the whole country. They fight together, they win AND lose together.
To the guy who thinks we cant get by without Roy Keane, Ireland did pretty well.
I've pretty much said all I have to say about this topic now. Keane will stay and he will continue to do what he does, good or bad. Lets hope all the players can do better next season.
what a load of old poppycock!Some of you people should work for the Sun,your ridiclous theories,are absolutely fecking hilarious.Get afecking grip!Roy Keane is a footballer and a private man,with a temper yes ,but judge him on his football for gods sake.Mr Gooner you wouldnt be related to Mussollini at all would you?Yet another non Manchester Utd fan absolutely obsessed with Roy Keane-what is the story?Is it a love hate thing?Or are ya just jelou0s of all those medals he has ?
Oh and by the way if Roy Keane was in Japan Ireland would have 6 points right now
Originally posted by ShAoLiN_ChRoNiC:
<strong>
It aint my fault your too stupid to understand some of these concepts. In case you didnt notice, only Man Utd fans have come into this thread and used abusive language like a bunch of idiots - that gets you nowhere in life. Your opinions are ignored, your voice does not count - why? Because clever people ignore stupid people. The whole class thing is just a way of disguising that. Maybe some of you could use that knowledge in future. Your post achieved nothing and your argument died. It had nothing but abuse.
Like I said, very little of what I said is theory. He said himself that he does not socialise with the other players and he doesnt necessarily like them. He said he has none of their phone numbers etc. Its a fact he shouts at everyone and I have never seen him be understanding, its a fact that at least 80% of people who value themselves dont like being shouted at. Its also a fact that many people hate playing football with people like Keane, go ask someone in the street if they like playing with psychos who shout at them. Its also a fact that criticising your team in public gets you nowhere.
We were discussing the effects this behaviour can have on the club he captains.
Your remark about Irelands 6 points is stupid and dumb, unless your Mystic Meg. In which case you deserve to die.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Blah ,blah,blah,blah,blah,exqeeze me,blasht and blather!!!
Originally posted by benny:
<strong>Blah ,blah,blah,blah,blah,exqeeze me,blasht and blather!!!
That's absolute rubbish!
No way Hosey,its all tickety boo from where Im typin ..
Hi, this is a late posting on this topic but I have only just managed to find the time to go through this thread.
I think Shaolin and a few others are missing the point, possibly because we live in a post-feminist world where masculine traits such as aggressive behaviour are continuously censured.
I am NOT referring to behaviour that violates women (I am a woman and would never defend anything like that) - I am simply referring to some ways in which some males behave that in another time would never warrant a whole thread.
Keano is not a child of the middle classes or upwards. He is a little rough as he would no doubt admit himself. He has got into trouble in the past in bars etc for rising to bait being thrown at him, responding with fists, etc.
There is nothing unusual about that among certain men. It is not a desirable quality but I think with Keano it is not a premeditated choice. He is a working class man and while not all working class men have the urge to fight physically as the result of verbal confrontations, Keano is one such man from a few different accounts.
His so called strangling of Kanchelskis (if it happened) was simply an example of a rough Keano goal celebration. Men who do not have that kind of physical aggressiveness in them do not know how to respond - if it is true that Sharpie and Kanchelskis were terrified, then they simply were not used to Roy.
And I would rather have a bloke who is a bit of a roughie than someone who gets their agent to make death threats to Sir Alex Ferguson (out of the horse`s mouth - read his autobiography or are you going to call Sir Alex a liar?).
I think that most people who come from genuine working class backgrounds would not be particularly surprised by Keano`s aggressiveness. They have met such kind of men.
And irrespective of whether Keano goes too far or not in giving his team mates a bollocking, he has a tremendous status at Old Trafford and with Sir Alex Ferguson because he never gives up, he gives 1,000 per cent even in pre-season practice matches, and he is prepared to go in where it hurts to make his team win. It is as simple as that.
I think Shaolin and a few others are missing the point, possibly because we live in a post-feminist world where masculine traits such as aggressive behaviour are continuously censured.
I am NOT referring to behaviour that violates women (I am a woman and would never defend anything like that) - I am simply referring to some ways in which some males behave that in another time would never warrant a whole thread.
Keano is not a child of the middle classes or upwards. He is a little rough as he would no doubt admit himself. He has got into trouble in the past in bars etc for rising to bait being thrown at him, responding with fists, etc.
There is nothing unusual about that among certain men. It is not a desirable quality but I think with Keano it is not a premeditated choice. He is a working class man and while not all working class men have the urge to fight physically as the result of verbal confrontations, Keano is one such man from a few different accounts.
His so called strangling of Kanchelskis (if it happened) was simply an example of a rough Keano goal celebration. Men who do not have that kind of physical aggressiveness in them do not know how to respond - if it is true that Sharpie and Kanchelskis were terrified, then they simply were not used to Roy.
And I would rather have a bloke who is a bit of a roughie than someone who gets their agent to make death threats to Sir Alex Ferguson (out of the horse`s mouth - read his autobiography or are you going to call Sir Alex a liar?).
I think that most people who come from genuine working class backgrounds would not be particularly surprised by Keano`s aggressiveness. They have met such kind of men.
And irrespective of whether Keano goes too far or not in giving his team mates a bollocking, he has a tremendous status at Old Trafford and with Sir Alex Ferguson because he never gives up, he gives 1,000 per cent even in pre-season practice matches, and he is prepared to go in where it hurts to make his team win. It is as simple as that.
Keano has always had a bit of screw loose. That is part of what makes him great just as it was with Cantona. And like Cantona Fergie knows how to get the best out of him.
As far as we know this incident was a direct result of Roy being dissatisfied with training and preperations followed by MM's woeful man management. If there were other personal factors then they might effect his performance but I wouldn't bet on it
As far as we know this incident was a direct result of Roy being dissatisfied with training and preperations followed by MM's woeful man management. If there were other personal factors then they might effect his performance but I wouldn't bet on it
Keano's antics are not an issue! In truth it affects no one. I remember how some United players looked devastated when they saw that Keano had pulled up with a hamstring injury in an interview after the match. Even in 99. They all said that they won it for him. Besides, Keano has always been like this. I don't think the other players mind that much coz Fergie has done the same for years Making them think it's them versus the World and all. But it has brought us success. Even Schmeichiel was as rough with the defence and the rest of the team as Keano.
Ruud & Veron may not be used to it yet. But they will be soon. And the team will be btter for it.
Ruud & Veron may not be used to it yet. But they will be soon. And the team will be btter for it.