How was he the better man?
How do you separate Robson and Keane?
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How was he the better man?
Roy Keane was and is an absolute hero of mine, and a legend for this club. It annoys me when people seek to belittle him and what he did for the club by saying Robson was twice the player he ever was. It angers me when people make snide snipes at his personality, as if that alone wasn't a crucial factor in the amount of success he dragged us to in the '90's.
It's easy to say he was surrounded by brilliance, so is Lionel Messi, that doesn't diminish what he did. And I think any sane person watching United when Roy Keane was in his prime saw the extra 10% that everyone around him gave when he was in psycho mode, and the amount of matches where he dragged us kicking and screaming over the line.
One thing I thought was always underrated about Keane was his passing. He was a brilliant passer. He passed teams to death at some times. I still remember a match away at Newcastle in the mid-to-late '90's, where we won maybe 3 or 4-1, and Keane assisted every goal, each with inch-perfect passes, and he could've laid on a few more but for wasteful finishing. And he was enough of a goal threat too, scored 51 for us and not 33 as someone erroneously claimed earlier in the thread. I think it was the Champions League in 99/00 where he got close to the top scorer? This threat waned in his latter years as he took a deeper role and this skews his statistics.
You say he doesn't care about the club, citing how he left and comments since. Horseshit. He left because he cared so much about the club, that was why he spoke up in the first place. He could have fecked off to Italy or Germany long since on much better pay. And have you forgotten what he said in the midst of the Wayne Rooney crisis? "An amazing football club, a brilliant football club. I had an incredible 12 years there"
And didn't we all.
It's easy to say he was surrounded by brilliance, so is Lionel Messi, that doesn't diminish what he did. And I think any sane person watching United when Roy Keane was in his prime saw the extra 10% that everyone around him gave when he was in psycho mode, and the amount of matches where he dragged us kicking and screaming over the line.
One thing I thought was always underrated about Keane was his passing. He was a brilliant passer. He passed teams to death at some times. I still remember a match away at Newcastle in the mid-to-late '90's, where we won maybe 3 or 4-1, and Keane assisted every goal, each with inch-perfect passes, and he could've laid on a few more but for wasteful finishing. And he was enough of a goal threat too, scored 51 for us and not 33 as someone erroneously claimed earlier in the thread. I think it was the Champions League in 99/00 where he got close to the top scorer? This threat waned in his latter years as he took a deeper role and this skews his statistics.
You say he doesn't care about the club, citing how he left and comments since. Horseshit. He left because he cared so much about the club, that was why he spoke up in the first place. He could have fecked off to Italy or Germany long since on much better pay. And have you forgotten what he said in the midst of the Wayne Rooney crisis? "An amazing football club, a brilliant football club. I had an incredible 12 years there"
And didn't we all.
There are several players that you left out that would make half of those listed cry for their mammy. Norman, Nobby, Paddy Crerand, Kevin Moran to name a few
Players like Robbo and Keane are a dying breed. These days we have too many so called attacking/creative midfielders or defensive/combative midfielders. What happened to players that do both?
Totally agree with this.
Agreed, they are just as rare as a Messi or a Ronaldo nowadays!
I've read that Frank Barson would have been well up in that list aswell.
Don't think they're a dying breed more the case of not being quite as good as the previous generation. We still could do with them but instead of the Robson, Keane,Davids,Vieria,Gattusos of this world we have Mascherano,De Jong,Van Bommel types who do the labouring without having the ability to create or score a crucial goal
This thread is done on the CAF every couple of months.
A few points. None of these points are really arguments for or against who is better but goal threat and injury proneness always tend to emerge in these threads.
1. Robson was obviously a bigger goal threat than Keane. Robbo was a better header of the ball, better at timing runs into the box, was more of a threat from long range and had a record of scoring in big games for United(such as finals, semis and against rivals). It's shown in their goal stats as well with Robbo scoring 99 goals and Keane getting in the low 50's. Keane played 40 odd more games for United as well.
You can't really say this is explained by Keane having to play more of a defensive role with Scholes his most frequent partner either as Robbo was often paired with the likes of Whiteside and Webb who were attacking players.
Robbo's international goal record of 26 in 90 caps also shows that level of goal threat.
2. Everyone always says Robbo was more injury prone than Keane. I've always disputed this, Robbo picked up injuries for sure, but then so did Keane for his entire United career. Players like this always do.
If we look over Keane's and Robson's appearances there is very little difference. The truth is Robbo is not as injury prone as alot say in retrospect and Keane picked up more injuries than people tend to remember.
Keane played 480 games for United and scored 51 goals over 12 seasons.
Robson played 437 games for United and scored 99 goals over 13 seasons.
Bearing in mind Keane played in the Fergie era which means constant CL football and was always a first team regular, the difference is not to big. Robbo really was a bit part player in his last two years(abit of a token captain like Gary Nev) at the club when his injury problems were probably worse than ever as well and was below McClair and Keane with Ince the main man.
I'd always pick Robson over Keane as a player, I just thinks he is overall a better player and the best central midfielder I have seen for United but there is not alot to seperate them. Both great players and the two best central midfielders I have ever seen for United.
A few points. None of these points are really arguments for or against who is better but goal threat and injury proneness always tend to emerge in these threads.
1. Robson was obviously a bigger goal threat than Keane. Robbo was a better header of the ball, better at timing runs into the box, was more of a threat from long range and had a record of scoring in big games for United(such as finals, semis and against rivals). It's shown in their goal stats as well with Robbo scoring 99 goals and Keane getting in the low 50's. Keane played 40 odd more games for United as well.
You can't really say this is explained by Keane having to play more of a defensive role with Scholes his most frequent partner either as Robbo was often paired with the likes of Whiteside and Webb who were attacking players.
Robbo's international goal record of 26 in 90 caps also shows that level of goal threat.
2. Everyone always says Robbo was more injury prone than Keane. I've always disputed this, Robbo picked up injuries for sure, but then so did Keane for his entire United career. Players like this always do.
If we look over Keane's and Robson's appearances there is very little difference. The truth is Robbo is not as injury prone as alot say in retrospect and Keane picked up more injuries than people tend to remember.
Keane played 480 games for United and scored 51 goals over 12 seasons.
Robson played 437 games for United and scored 99 goals over 13 seasons.
Bearing in mind Keane played in the Fergie era which means constant CL football and was always a first team regular, the difference is not to big. Robbo really was a bit part player in his last two years(abit of a token captain like Gary Nev) at the club when his injury problems were probably worse than ever as well and was below McClair and Keane with Ince the main man.
I'd always pick Robson over Keane as a player, I just thinks he is overall a better player and the best central midfielder I have seen for United but there is not alot to seperate them. Both great players and the two best central midfielders I have ever seen for United.
That's kind of my point. Mascherano was 20 odd million pounds and perhaps I'm being a bit harsh as I didn't watch him from week to week, but all I remember of watching his Liverpool displays was breaking up play, fouling a lot and passing the ball to people who can do something with it. Is that worth £20 million?
The likes of keane, Ince, Vieria etc would do the breaking up play bit and then surge towards the oppositions box, or play a creative pass. Perhaps it's the modern game and the speed of counter attacks which forces managers/players to adopt a more constrained approach to the midfield.
If they were coming through the ranks today, would the likes of Robson or Keane be coached/instructed to remain in the centre of the park and forget about trying to score or be too expansive?
didn't Keano have two stages like? before his knee injury he scored quite a few. after his injury he was more focused on defending/ covering the back four.
Keano is my favourite player of all time but...i'd say Robbo wasn't insane therefore was more reaible (no needless sending offs) and thus Robbo was more important to the team
Player-wise I think it's very hard to separate the two.
However I'd pick Keane for one reason. Although he was a bit of a hell raiser himself, Robson was a known alco and Ferguson has admitted that he couldn't keep Robson, McGrath and Whiteside together because they'd basically be on the beer the whole time. If Robson wasn't a spunker (like McGrath), we'd have kept McGrath who would have been absolutely brilliant for us as he was for Villa later on in his career.
However I'd pick Keane for one reason. Although he was a bit of a hell raiser himself, Robson was a known alco and Ferguson has admitted that he couldn't keep Robson, McGrath and Whiteside together because they'd basically be on the beer the whole time. If Robson wasn't a spunker (like McGrath), we'd have kept McGrath who would have been absolutely brilliant for us as he was for Villa later on in his career.
Not post injury, only towards the end of his career did he drop off more.
His best goalscoring season was the season after the treble.
Keane scored more in the early part of his career but he was never the same level of threat of Robbo and apart from his double player of the year season, never a particularly high scoring midfielder.
He was sold to United on the premise of being the new Robson and he had a reputation for being someone who score goals from midfield at Forest. He made more runs into the box and runs in behind the defence when he partned with Ince in his early years and was still never a big goal scoring midfileder. He would chip in with his share from the postion most years year but Robbo was closer to Scholes in being often a double figures midfielder. There's no real comparison between the two as goalscorers.
Keane was more defensively orientated than an overall central midfielder in his later years but his game became more defensively orientated as soon as Ince was sold and he was a much better player there and overall than he was in his early United days or Forest days.
Take a bow mate.
I don't think too many are belittling Keane here, the fact remains Keane was a brilliant player for United but Robson was better.
Robson's all-round game was better, a better goal-scorer, great leader, great passer, great tackler.
I think Keane was a better tackler, but that's all he supercedes Robson in.
Keane led a great comeback versus Juventus in 1999 but Robson carried plenty of pretty poor United teams throughout the whole of the 1980's, and whereas Keane overshadowed Zidane in '99, Robson murdered Maradona in 1984 against Barcelona.
I'm not detracting from Keane, he was one of our greats but Robson was a better player.
Robson's all-round game was better, a better goal-scorer, great leader, great passer, great tackler.
I think Keane was a better tackler, but that's all he supercedes Robson in.
Keane led a great comeback versus Juventus in 1999 but Robson carried plenty of pretty poor United teams throughout the whole of the 1980's, and whereas Keane overshadowed Zidane in '99, Robson murdered Maradona in 1984 against Barcelona.
I'm not detracting from Keane, he was one of our greats but Robson was a better player.
Personal opinion not based on stats or anything else but I thought Robbo was simply the more complete player.
Call me knee jerk, but this has made me appreciate Keane all the more. I'm so disappointed in Robson.
Flagg ya fecker!
Its not a competition tbf.
Robson wins solidly for me. More goals, in a far poorer team. Keane is an all time great but it was made easier at times when youve got a Paul Scholes, David Beckham and Ryan Giggs in their prime alongside you. That being said my opinion is bias as I always found Keane very hard to like.
Honestly, this is not close to what happened during that time period.
Fergie would always have kept Robbo out of the three as he was the best player in the team and not an alcoholic. There was only one alcholic in that side and no amount of help was going to save Paul McGrath's career with United. Fergie tried very very hard to do so but was on a complete loser which Mcgrath admits to this day.
Fergie had to split up Whiteside and Mcgrath in the end after giving both numerous attempts to save their United careers as it was one or the other indulging the other. More likely if we would have sold Mcgrath earlier we would have kept Big Norm for longer. I've got alot of time for Paul Mcgrath but he was a tortured soul during his last few years with United and one of the saddest stories in football.
I prefer Robson but its a personal choice. However I wouldnt try and separate them, both of them amazing players.
Robson was a complete player and a true legend on and off the pitch. Keane was a great player period.
Goals
Not before Robbo.
And Robson didn't play better for England than United. His numerous goals in big games was a major differentiator.
Robson had three world class players around him...McGrath, Whiteside and Hughes.
Then he had good solid pros in the likes of Albiston, Moran, Stapleton, Duxbury and one or two others. But none of these would get in any best United X1 and certainly nowhere near today's team.
Keane played with much more quality than Robson did.
I would choose Robson over Keane purely for goalscoring but wouldn't play them in the same team as they were too similar. Robson/Scholes would have been something!
Pretty much covers all the points I was going to bring up.
And Keane was a better captain.
Comparing Keane to Robson is kind of like comparing Gerrard(pre-forgetting how to play midfield completely here) to Essien.....ones a better attacker box to boxer, ones the better defensive box to box. I think they pretty much equal themselves out pretty much overall.
I'm sure it's well documented from all 3 players that the three of them were always beering together. McGrath certainly talks about it in his book and I've heard Whiteside in interviews referring to the 3 of them always out on the beer.
Apart from the fact he wasn't.
Why does one have to be better than the other? personally my favourite was Robbo by a long way, but I would not say either was better per se. Can you imagine Robbo from his peak alongside Roy at his peak....
i think what some people fail to realise is the impact Keane had on his teammates
as well as his own qualities it is well documented how he demanded the best of his team mates at all times....if a player wasnt giving 100% Keano would let them know
I'd say Keano was an influential in getting performances from his team mates as Fergie was at times...
its impossible to compare the 2, both were fantastic footballers
I think Robson was the better player box to box and a slightly better passer (Keane was very good but kept it more simple) but I've never seen a captain to have Keane's influence
Robson could have probably been a better player as well if he had laid off the drink - read Lee Sharpe's book and i remember reading how Robbo was a regular pinting away well into the 90's - there's a humorous story when he takes Giggs and Sharpey to Dublin and he drinks them under the table
On the other hand Keano had the discipline, professionalism, drive and ambition to be the best player he could be. He demanded the same of his team mates
in saying that Keane was a fool at the end to be so openly critical of his team mates after the defeat at Boro on MUTV - he forgot the golden rule of behind closed doors
The way Keane played that night in Turin when he was the main man dragging us through despite the fact he would miss the final is his best moment for me....some comparison with Gazza crying his eyes out - thats the difference... Gazza was thinking about himself....Keano was thinking only about winning
after thinking it over if i had to pick one it would be Keano - he's be amazing for us at the minute
as well as his own qualities it is well documented how he demanded the best of his team mates at all times....if a player wasnt giving 100% Keano would let them know
I'd say Keano was an influential in getting performances from his team mates as Fergie was at times...
its impossible to compare the 2, both were fantastic footballers
I think Robson was the better player box to box and a slightly better passer (Keane was very good but kept it more simple) but I've never seen a captain to have Keane's influence
Robson could have probably been a better player as well if he had laid off the drink - read Lee Sharpe's book and i remember reading how Robbo was a regular pinting away well into the 90's - there's a humorous story when he takes Giggs and Sharpey to Dublin and he drinks them under the table
On the other hand Keano had the discipline, professionalism, drive and ambition to be the best player he could be. He demanded the same of his team mates
in saying that Keane was a fool at the end to be so openly critical of his team mates after the defeat at Boro on MUTV - he forgot the golden rule of behind closed doors
The way Keane played that night in Turin when he was the main man dragging us through despite the fact he would miss the final is his best moment for me....some comparison with Gazza crying his eyes out - thats the difference... Gazza was thinking about himself....Keano was thinking only about winning
after thinking it over if i had to pick one it would be Keano - he's be amazing for us at the minute
Apart from the fact he wasn't.
Why does one have to be better than the other? personally my favourite was Robbo by a long way, but I would not say either was better per se. Can you imagine Robbo from his peak alongside Roy at his peak....
That would be just cruel lol. Awesome and terrible at the same time.
Can you imagine just getting run through by Keane and the next tackle that comes in is from Robbo.
Hmmmmm Im not so sure about profesionallism, not all the time at least.
1: Deliberately injuring another professional? Oh yeah very professional
2: Stamping on Gareth southgate for the first of 11 Utd red cards
3: Elbowing Jason Mcateer in the face at sunderland
4: Walking out on Ireland
Dont get me wrong, I would never question his achievements for Utd, his influence on both team and club or his skill as a player, but lets not make out he was some kind of saint. If we are being kind we would say he had issues.......fans of other sides would call him a thug.........
Really? Ferguson called Keane the greatest professional he ever worked with
along with this humourous quote...
Alex Ferguson once said of Keane; "If I was putting Roy Keane out there to represent Manchester United on a one against one, we'd win the Derby, the National, the Boat Race and anything else. It's an incredible thing he's got."
It comes down to your generation.
I was at the perfect age to worship Keano and his never-die/balls to the wall mentality and soaked it up. Robson happened a little too early for me to hero-worship him.
Much like Best/Edwards/Sir Bobby, nostalgia is the deciding factor.
I was at the perfect age to worship Keano and his never-die/balls to the wall mentality and soaked it up. Robson happened a little too early for me to hero-worship him.
Much like Best/Edwards/Sir Bobby, nostalgia is the deciding factor.