Has the US awakened the sleeping giant?

The question, ignore Russia for a thought experiment, who? Who is going to invade Europe and assume it won't be Russia.

No one. History tells me it is the Europeans who tend to invade Europe.

Also bear in mind that EU nations taken together spend as much as China does (300bn) on defense as it is. Three times that of Russia in all out war mode. Often just ignored.

For a start, the current US president is already threatening to invade territory of a sovereign European state. But that aside, it doesn't make sense to pretend Russia doesn't exist because it does and is invading a European country at this very moment.

In general, open doors may tempt even saints. The EU has nuclear weapons as deterrents, true, but don't you think without conventional forces other countries would test how far they could go because you have no levels of escalation? Especially if the world moves away from economic dependence on Europe going forward and resource scarcity is only going to increase because of climate change? And not every war is an invasion with the objective of conquering and holding territory.
 
Russia is at war. The EU isn't. And the EU already spends three times what Russia does (nominally).
Since Russia produces pretty much all their equipment themselves, and obviously pays their soldiers in Rubles, the nominal number comparison is practically meaningless.
 
For a start, the current US president is already threatening to invade territory of a sovereign European state. But that aside, it doesn't make sense to pretend Russia doesn't exist because it does and is invading a European country at this very moment.

In general, open doors may tempt even saints. The EU has nuclear weapons as deterrents, true, but don't you think without conventional forces other countries would test how far they could go because you have no levels of escalation? Especially if the world moves away from economic dependence on Europe going forward and resource scarcity is only going to increase because of climate change? And not every war is an invasion with the objective of conquering and holding territory.
I just see Turkey and Russia. One is in Nato and wants EU membership and the other won't go beyond its border (which it hasn't since the end of the cold war).

It isn't going to invade Europe.

Tech defense spending is a smart area if you ask me. The rest might look good but what's the point? The EU needs x, y, and z, let's say, to keep up with Russia/China/US.

I think there's a problem whereby 300 billion euro spent every year is not sufficient to do that. That would be my first point. See what is going to waste or what is not directed with a spend which matches China and exceeds Russia. If raised, then why is there any confidence that it won't also be wasted? That's the argument now, imo, that 300bn every year is just waste because the EU is so weak or something.
 
Since Russia produces pretty much all their equipment themselves, and obviously pays their soldiers in Rubles, the nominal number comparison is practically meaningless.
Agreed. And China pays people less so that too.

Not meaningless, but I get your point. You adjust for it.
 
A peace-deal would be preferable.

Wont stop where? In Ukraine or beyond.

It's the same thing that's been done to death. Simultaneously weak and strong (in your post alone at two different points). Complete fantasy land. He cannot invade beyond the Russian border (which is basically just Georgia and Ukraine and so on).

But some want people to think that Russian tanks will be rolling through Warsaw and Paris. It's manipulation of the public discourse. Complete shite.
The reason you're so sure he 'cannot invade beyond the Russian border', whether you realise it or not, is because you have grown up with the belief that the US will back Nato. The US might not even be in Nato soon, never mind actually act on it.

Putin believes the Russian border is wherever he wants it to be by the way, that's the problem
 
@neverdie again, it isnt so much about the enemy on your doorstep threatening to directly invade. The last 20 years with China and Russia in particular have been a demonstration of hybrid/grey warfare. Unavowed troop, cyber attacks and shotgun diplomacy. Any country without a strong deterrent (either themselves, or an ally) is vulnerable to any of these. Even with all the nukes and deterrents, we are still seeing constant interference in Western democracies by Russia in particular. It is simply nowhere near as black and white as "country x invades country y, country y uses some nukes".

If Russia decided they wanted a piece of say, Oman, with whom the UK enjoy good relations, and sought to overthrow the current regime, it would be up to the UK and other friendly powers to defend them. For that, you need conventional armed forces - just like what we have seen currently in Ukraine. Unless you are advocating for complete isolationism and a withdrawal from global politics, then you need some sort of military backstop to underwrite your policies and agendas.
 
The reason you're so sure he 'cannot invade beyond the Russian border', whether you realise it or not, is because you have grown up with the belief that the US will back Nato. The US might not even be in Nato soon, never mind actually act on it.

Putin believes the Russian border is wherever he wants it to be by the way, that's the problem
No, though it's fair to say that.

I genuinely believe he has an army that is not capable of it now and won't be in 20 years, either. It's not the USSR where half of Europe had Soviet allied troops. Well, the Iron Curtain parts.

I think he's doing what people smarter than me said he was capable of doing and not going to do a whole lot more.
 
@neverdie again, it isnt so much about the enemy on your doorstep threatening to directly invade. The last 20 years with China and Russia in particular have been a demonstration of hybrid/grey warfare. Unavowed troop, cyber attacks and shotgun diplomacy. Any country without a strong deterrent (either themselves, or an ally) is vulnerable to any of these. Even with all the nukes and deterrents, we are still seeing constant interference in Western democracies by Russia in particular. It is simply nowhere near as black and white as "country x invades country y, country y uses some nukes".

If Russia decided they wanted a piece of say, Oman, with whom the UK enjoy good relations, and sought to overthrow the current regime, it would be up to the UK and other friendly powers to defend them. For that, you need conventional armed forces - just like what we have seen currently in Ukraine. Unless you are advocating for complete isolationism and a withdrawal from global politics, then you need some sort of military backstop to underwrite your policies and agendas.
Here's the thing. The EU has been more than strong enough to do certain things with Palestine but for two decades or close to it chose not to. The hypothetical of Oman is overruled by the actual of the EU doing feck all. The Iranian situation, then. The Iranians complaining that EU also did feck all when the US tore up that agreement.

Politically, it has never wanted to do anything of substance which the US also does not agree with. Maybe that'll change.

The interference, just to leave on this, is primarily coming from the US. What was attributed to the Russians (and sure maybe they did some espionage) was done openly by the right wing of the GOP for nearly a decade. That's why I said expenditure on cyber, anyway, because that's all Russia or China has (just more advanced troll farms).
 
Here's the thing. The EU has been more than strong enough to do certain things with Palestine but for two decades or close to it chose not to. The hypothetical of Oman is overruled by the actual of the EU doing feck all. The Iranian situation, then. The Iranians complaining that EU also did feck all when the US tore up that agreement.

Politically, it has never wanted to do anything of substance which the US also does not agree with. Maybe that'll change.

The interference, just to leave on this, is primarily coming from the US. What was attributed to the Russians (and sure maybe they did some espionage) was done openly by the right wing of the GOP for nearly a decade. That's why I said expenditure on cyber, anyway, because that's all Russia or China has (just more advanced troll farms).

As you say, the dependence on the US has largely governed EU and UK policy. Now that dynamic is potentially changing and the EU/UK is becoming more independent - which requires that military backstop that I was describing above.

The EU as a combined power bloc is a global superpower on a par with China or the US. It needs to be able to protect its interests at home and abroad, and a nuclear deterrent does not achieve that.
 
As you say, the dependence on the US has largely governed EU and UK policy. Now that dynamic is potentially changing and the EU/UK is becoming more independent - which requires that military backstop that I was describing above.

The EU as a combined power bloc is a global superpower on a par with China or the US. It needs to be able to protect its interests at home and abroad, and a nuclear deterrent does not achieve that.
If it went that way, which is how it should be anyway, then you make good arguments.

The question then is NATO worth keeping? I don't mean now but in 10 years?

Unless the EU can carve out its own distinct foreign policy there's no point in any of these discussions.
 
As you say, the dependence on the US has largely governed EU and UK policy. Now that dynamic is potentially changing and the EU/UK is becoming more independent - which requires that military backstop that I was describing above.

The EU as a combined power bloc is a global superpower on a par with China or the US. It needs to be able to protect its interests at home and abroad, and a nuclear deterrent does not achieve that.
One would think that moving forwards, serious military cooperation and joint development of key capabilities between Britain, France and Germany is the key to European security.

Britain need to move away from its reliance on Trident, and along with France develop a new, proprietary land and sea based nuclear deterrent system that can be extended to Germany and other European allies. Currently the two systems are incompatible. This will be enormously expensive but also enormously necessary.

The development of new naval, air force, armour, projectile, AI, and drone defence systems should be done in concert between the three countries to vastly improve intraoperability and achieve economies of scale. The UK is at least developing its own next generation multi-role fighter jet, in Tempest, along with Italy and Japan, but both Britain and Germany are dependent on future F35 tranches (not such an issue for the UK who is an “equal” tier 1 partner with the US), and the French have typically gone it alone. FCAS with France, Germany and Spain is the European answer to Tempest; but moving forwards it would make sense to roll these two programs into one and work together, rather than such a fragmented approach to development.

When you look at the costs of developing new carriers, destroyers, frigates, fighters, submarines etc., and how much of that cost goes into the design and development phase; it makes so much sense to all pursue the same programs together and defray the costs across many more contributors. The overall unit cost of design, development and eventual construction comes down significantly, supply chains, intra-operability, availability and price of parts, and access to qualified repair and maintenance all vastly improve. It’s not just about increasing overall defence spending, it’s making that money go so much further.

It’s also good business, because these joint programs will eventually lead to much better outcomes, in terms of capabilities and superiority, and that alone creates an even more robust export market. Inherently built into the model would be likely, at a minimum, three levels of capability. Tier 1, full capability variants for primary partners; tier 2, reduced capability/scaled down variants for those partners with more limited defence budgets; and tier 3, selective capability variants for foreign market exports.

A great example of how cost savings could be deployed is in the development of new aircraft carriers. The UK spent approximately 6.5bn pounds designing, developing, building and putting to sea two new Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carriers. Meanwhile, France needs to replace the Charles de Gaulle carrier and is planning to do so with the super-carrier PA-NG by 2038 at an estimated cost of approximately 8-9bn euros. If the British and French had cooperated and developed these projects together, they could not only have already delivered a highly capable replacement to CDG for the French, but the savings in working together likely would’ve meant that compromises such as making the carrier conventionally fuelled as opposed to nuclear powered, would never have had to be made. By working separately, we’ve likely spent double what we needed to (when added together), and in the case of Britain, made significant design compromises to stay even remotely close to budget (still a fail).

That’s just one really obvious example, and there are so many more. The main issue has always been trying to find a tight coupling between unified response to global threats, and maintaining individual national interests. In the case of all three of Europes biggest economic and military powers - the UK, France, and Germany - politicians all tend to agree on having shared security threats, but also prioritise protection of their own national defense industries/economies. And as that second consideration was deemed more important to voters and politicians (protecting jobs in British/French/German defense contractors), we ended up with this hopelessly fragmented approach, with is absurdly inefficient.

Finally it seems that the apparent increasing withdrawal of the US with regards to European security, and the acutely perceived threat from Russia becoming too pervasive to ignore; we may finally see common sense prevail, and a much more unified, collaborative and efficient approach to enhancing European security and military power. I’m not holding my breath, but I am tentatively optimistic. Any move towards greater collaboration and joint development programmes, is a move in the right direction. Individually these countries are second tier players, but as a bloc they can become a legitimate superpower. But what is essential is this close collaboration to dramatically reduce per nation design, development, production and running costs, so we can achieve significant improvements in efficiency and unlock economies of scale. Production in Europe, with resource scarcity and European wages, mean that our nominal defence spending levels don’t go as far as say the Russians or Chinese who have access to abundant resources, cheap energy, and pay their people peanuts.

The question isn’t whether Europe can become a legitimate superpower. It’s whether they will. They are already an economic superpower to some degree, as the largest multi nation single market on the planet (and one the UK simply must regain access to), and they are undoubtedly a regulatory superpower, but in terms of energy and military capability….there is some way to go. The US, with their backwards looking roadmap to progress, which calls for increased reliance on fossil fuels and abandonment of investment in green technologies, is really giving Europe a bit of an open goal to become the world leader in renewable energy and sustainable, clean fuels. A potential huge economy, and an economy of the future, up for grabs. But we’ll have to focus heavily on developing the tech sectors, including AI, because Europe has slipped far too far behind in that area.

So while I am heavily advocating for a sustained increase in defence spending right across Europe, I am even more strongly advocating for a quantum leap forwards in defence operations and development collaborations between the UK and the EU. This is vital and, for me, the key. Of course, no conversation about this can be had without addressing how this can be sustainable in the long term. Potentially with a high level of collaboration, defence spending becomes so much more efficient that even a minor increase leads to vastly improved outcomes, but it also feels like a relevant time to address the rapidly unfolding welfare crisis across European countries with aging populations.

Quite simply, how do you sustain such an ageing population and remain globally competitive? The answer to me seems to be in some sort of tiered change to retirement age, raising the threshold to 70 in most instances. People are living longer and longer, and retirement ages cannot stay static, it’s just not feasible. Older people also have a wealth of experience and skill to contribute to the workforce, a contribution which, after say 65, could become sedentary by definition. No one should be advocating for having 68 year olds on production lines, for example, but there are a plethora of sedentary roles that could not only utilise this highly skilled and untapped resource, and also significantly reduce the social welfare burden. I am sure many will decry this philosophy, but as we continuously make breakthroughs to extend human life and average life expectancies keep going up, is it realistic to keep retirement age pegged where it is? I don’t think so.

In 1950 average life expectancy in the Uk, for example, was just 68. In 2019 average life expectancy was 79 for men and 83 for women. By 2047 the figures are projected to be 89 and 92 respectively. The retirement age in the UK in 1950 was 65 for men and 60 for women, meaning an average expected life on state pension of 3 years and 8 years respectively. Current retirement age is 66, meaning averages of 11 and 15 years respectively. The retirement age is not expected to hit 68 until 2044 at which point those numbers will be 21 and 24 years respectively. Unsustainable.
 
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It's only the Europeans who are still deluded enough to assume that Russia will invade Europe and destroys its own economy in the process of maintaining these delusions.
Yeah, about that
Yep, Russia invaded contrary to my expectations. I didn't think they'd invade, I was wrong. It was a stupid decision, there you go. As to lack of provocation, that will be debated for decades. As per geopolitics and arguments best avoided here?
 
Yeah, about that

And this is the problem. It’s easy to advocate for these things on an internet forum where one’s opinion is entirely inconsequential. If Putin rolled over half of Eastern Europe because the EU is caught with its pants down, saying “Ah well, we didn’t expect that, I guess we were wrong” doesn’t help or fix it.

Unfortunately you have to prepare for the worst case scenarios (within reason), when you are talking about potentially existential threats to sovereign nations.
 
And the people who predicted he would invade 20 years before he did are written off because NATO is their primary predictive metric.

Yeah, about that.

"This won't happen" says man who just saw it happen.
 
“People are deluded if they think Russia will invade Europe”, after spending 3 years watching Russia invading a country in Europe is a hell of a stance to take.
 
“People are deluded if they think Russia will invade Europe”, after spending 3 years watching Russia invading a country in Europe is a hell of a stance to take.
After the last six weeks starting a sentence with "people are deluded if they think..." has become a bit of stance to take all in all. Nothing is of the table.
 
“People are deluded if they think Russia will invade Europe”, after spending 3 years watching Russia invading a country in Europe is a hell of a stance to take.

It’s worse than that.

In 2008 Russia invaded Georgia, aka Europe. Dick Cheney said they thought about bombing the mountain tunnels the Russians would use, but decided to try the carrot and stick approach instead. He admits they read it wrong and made the wrong choice.

I remember telling a friend in 2020 how WW3 was kind of already happening, with Russia fighting in the Donbas, though people seem to be trying their best to ignore it.

The 2014 invasion never stopped.
 
The precursor to major wars has always been an aggressor nation building up its military whilst everybody else tries to pretend its not happening. A strong deterrent is key to peace. The US has been that deterrent on a global level but the weakness of Biden and now the disinterest of Trump has meant tyrant leaders are increasingly willing to have a pop. It wouldn't surprise me if a few new regional conflicts kick off in the next couple of years.
For WW2, yes. But for WW1 the arms race is a cause in itself, and everyone was doing it.
 
“People are deluded if they think Russia will invade Europe”, after spending 3 years watching Russia invading a country in Europe is a hell of a stance to take.
Chomsky, et al

US is inviting disaster (like Russia's invasion of Ukraine, hypothetically mentioned by him a few times over a vast amount of work and a long time ago) by doing what they're doing. Same with Meirsheimer and a few others. These are the outliers who did predict it insofar as it was predicted. Not many but some very credible cross spectrum political people.

But their criteria isn't politically correct. NATO expansionism. So (until peace happens and the real history begins) this is just shouted out or blocked out or "not again" (when it will feature very well in the actual histories worth reading regardless of how high or low it is weighted).
 
Chomsky, et al

US is inviting disaster (like Russia's invasion of Ukraine, hypothetically mentioned by him a few times over a vast amount of work and a long time ago) by doing what they're doing. Same with Meirsheimer and a few others. These are the outliers who did predict it insofar as it was predicted. Not many but some very credible cross spectrum political people.

But their criteria isn't politically correct. NATO expansionism. So (until peace happens and the real history begins) this is just shouted out or blocked out or "not again" (when it will feature very well in the actual histories worth reading regardless of how high or low it is weighted).

For what it’s worth, not that I’m by any means generally good at this stuff but I remember arguing with people on here who were insistent that Russia would definitely not invade Ukraine again that it looked increasingly likely that they would. And that various European leaders desperately visiting the region and trying to mediate was clearly not a normal situation.

In this context, I don’t see Russia attacking Poland. Or any country further west. Depending on how he sees NATO, he may try his luck with the 3 small Baltic states. He obviously is not going to attack France or Spain.

I think it’s all very unlikely regardless. But certainly more likely than it was 5 years ago, when I’d have said it was all impossible.

The thing in, in this context, nobody is responding to you about NATO or encroachment or morality or who’s in the right or what the USA or whoever did. That’s a separate conversation. They’re responding to you so definitively stating that Russia will not attack again, when you were proved so wrong the last time you made such a definitive comment.

Same with those who were so insistent on the 24 election thread that trump could never win. I joya don’t understand how anyone could have watched trump do what he’s done over the past 8 years and decide that definitely he’s not going to win.

Just as I can’t understand how someone could watch what’s happened over the past 10 years and say definitely Russia won’t attack again.
 
when you were proved so wrong the last time you made such a definitive comment.
I said they wouldn't invade and they did.

The irony is that I had been listening to people telling me Russia would for many years do something like they did. I just didn't think so.

But those same people are highly reasoned and they have a logos to their argument. People on here saying Russia will or could invade Europe (beyond the border) have no logical structure to their argument at all. It's not true of what Russia can do nor of what they will do. It's nonsense.

The topic is hard to counter because it's what the US has wanted for years (well done to the defense contractors there) and has been official Trump policy. Now it's cast as some kind of counter Trump position.

It makes money for the people pimped out to argue for it (politicians) and there is no real incentive except scrutiny to argue against. You get nothing but aggravation for it. You won't be paid, applauded, or even helped. But you will be right (it isn't going to happen any more than Saddam will have WMD in 200 years time).

(Btw Gotcha-posts really are the worst. It's lowest common demonstrator posting. If everyone played that game no one would be allowed to post and in politics, most people who do play it would be forbidden -- there's just too much to go through.
 
Chomsky, et al

US is inviting disaster (like Russia's invasion of Ukraine, hypothetically mentioned by him a few times over a vast amount of work and a long time ago) by doing what they're doing. Same with Meirsheimer and a few others. These are the outliers who did predict it insofar as it was predicted. Not many but some very credible cross spectrum political people.

But their criteria isn't politically correct. NATO expansionism. So (until peace happens and the real history begins) this is just shouted out or blocked out or "not again" (when it will feature very well in the actual histories worth reading regardless of how high or low it is weighted).

This NATO expansionism nonsense boils my piss as well. Lads like yourself and @Kinsella trying to victim blame smaller countries for wanting to sign up to something that can help protect them from the bully on their doorsteps, or lay blame at the door of bigger countries or organisations who see value in providing protection to smaller nations.

These arguments are akin to suggesting criminals only commit crimes because we created prisons and police forces to antagonise them in the first place. It's bollocks and always has been.

Russia are to blame for aggression in Georgia, in Ukraine and theoretically in Poland, Hungary or the then Czech Republic, and Russia alone. Bullies need to be stood up to - not placated and pussy footed around. NATO could add every country that borders Russia and so long as the West stood firm and united, they wouldn't have had the balls to do anything about it until they developed their own pet US president. Now that they have that and a West divided, who knows what they'll have the audacity to do - the logic and reasoning of the past several decades no longer bears weight.
 
This NATO expansionism nonsense boils my piss as well. Lads like yourself and @Kinsella trying to victim blame smaller countries for wanting to sign up to something that can help protect them from the bully on their doorsteps, or lay blame at the door of bigger countries or organisations who see value in providing protection to smaller nations.


The argument, long before you ever heard of Ukraine, (not even joking, probably), was that it wasn't Ukraine's fault at all but that the US knew what it was doing and that Russia would invade under the circumstances where NATO was being offered to Ukraine or they were falling out of that sphere into the US.

Turned out to be pretty accurate.

"Boiling piss or not". No one else said Russia would invade Ukraine (credibly) at all. These people (and they don't agree on anything else really) did. Why should anyone care if you don't even understand the argument and pitch it at the level of rhetoric and emotion (trying to win people over to an emotional cause) rather than reason and comprehension.

Stuff like that is just ignorant (really ignorant). Lack of engagement with material you just don't like so you cannot even credibly say "no". It backfires on you more than whatever strawman you think yourself at war with. Engage with it, then tell people. without showing no lack of comprehension as to why it's wrong, why it's wrong.

Because only Mearshimer iirc said anything remotely like what you do. The others just highlighted NATO. And none of them blamed Ukraine. That's just what people say of some of the analysts or Mearshimer when he's being all geopolitically realist.
 
and theoretically in Poland
What?

You cannot even blame your worst enemy for theoretical violence. It's nonsense.

Btw, they were more reactionary in Georgia. Only did it after NATO membership was offered iirc. Same with one other place. Not the transinitra one.

Someone else was right when they said Russia post-2007 is not the same as Russia before that. And that's a key date.
 
I said they wouldn't invade and they did.

The irony is that I had been listening to people telling me Russia would for many years do something like they did. I just didn't think so.

This. This is the operative section. There would be a lot less gotcha posts if you weren’t doubling down on this.

If you even said ‘Russia is very unlikely to invade’ you’d get a lot less pushback. When you make definitive statements in any area and were proved wrong, you’re going to receive comment if you continue to issue definitive statements on that exact same topic. Especially if the outcome for some of those on the ground of being wrong (ie Poland, Latvia etc) are potentially existential.

You can’t expect to be taken that seriously on that particular issue (there is no way Russia will invade ‘Europe’) when only a few years ago, you were insisting the exact same thing .

Again, this is an entirely different conversation to whether it was justified, the morality, the American approach, the quagmire, the Soviets or whatever else people want to talk about.
 
This. This is the operative section. There would be a lot less gotcha posts if you weren’t doubling down on this.

If you even said ‘Russia is very unlikely to invade’ you’d get a lot less pushback. When you make definitive statements in any area and were proved wrong, you’re going to receive comment if you continue to issue definitive statements on that exact same topic. Especially if the outcome for some of those on the ground of being wrong (ie Poland, Latvia etc) are potentially existential.

You can’t expect to be taken that seriously on that particular issue (there is no way Russia will invade ‘Europe’) when only a few years ago, you were insisting the exact same thing .

Again, this is an entirely different conversation to whether it was justified, the morality, the American approach, the quagmire, the Soviets or whatever else people want to talk about.
You can find one instance of me being wrong like that and immediately admitting it. As if I pretended otherwise.

Then, of course, I go back to the people who did see it coming (way in advance) and everyone thinks these people aren't worth quoting. This is propaganda.

I could do gotcha posts all day long on some people who wade into just about any political conversation (they've been wrong on almost everything and never even admit it) but it's a waste of everyone's time. Just ignore each other or something. Goes nowhere.

btw you know how confident, even you want to say it's mental, I must be that Russia simply isn't going to invade because I'm not oblivious to that post. It just isn't going to happen.

If it wasn't useful as a boogmman for weapons contractors and capital flows then it wouldn't even be mentioned. A very coordinated (despite scenes of disagreement) result: all doing what Trump said like 8 years ago and massively increasing defense spending despite framing it (for lols or something) as an anti-trump move.
 
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You can find one instance of me being wrong like that and immediately admitting it. As if I pretended otherwise.

Then, of course, I go back to the people who did see it coming (way in advance) and everyone thinks these people aren't worth quoting. This is propaganda.

I could do gotcha posts all day long on some people who wade into just about any political conversation (they've been wrong on almost everything and never even admit it) but it's a waste of everyone's time. Just ignore each other or something. Goes nowhere.

You haven’t really acknowledged my points at any time. I was not one of the people who used a gotcha post with you. I didn’t do it with the people I argued about pre 2022 or with the ones who were so insistent that trump would lose.

It’s really quite a simple point. We’re not in a world where definitives really work anymore. I’m not confident that Israel won’t ethnically cleanse the whole of Gaza. Or that Russia won’t attack Lithuania. Or that China won’t attack Taiwan. Or the USA won’t take Greenland. Im fairly sure those things won’t happen. But not 100%.

It’s ok to admit that. It’s ok to acknowledge why Poles and the Baltic populations are terrified. None of this is about the geopolitics of who was justified or not. It is about having such a definitive confident view in a context where the world is much more unpredictable.
 
You can find one instance of me being wrong like that and immediately admitting it. As if I pretended otherwise.

It doesn't matter, the salient point is that you've just witnessed Russia invade a European country and are now denying it could happen in the future. "This thing that just happened can't happen" isn't persuasive irrespective of whether you were right or wrong in the past.
 
Nope. WW2 was preceded by an arms race as well. Arms races inevitably end in war.

It's quite difficult, when a bellicose neighbour is busy rearming, not to think that rearming yourself is a good idea.
 
It doesn't matter, the salient point is that you've just witnessed Russia invade a European country and are now denying it could happen in the future. "This thing that just happened can't happen" isn't persuasive irrespective of whether you were right or wrong in the past.
Ukraine is not Europe. Sorry to shatter your delusions but no one West of Germany even considered that a distinction worth repeating before the invasion. Then the massive propaganda overdrive. "These are people with blonde hair [NOT ARABS!]!. Farce.

In Europe (as is Moscow) but never really (except to some people I suppose) considered such.

Anyway, they are the border of Russia. There isn't another nation with its history in the Russian (invasion of Russia) context. Poland it is not.

Happy to be banned if wrong. Let's set a 3 year time? 5?

Russia won't invade an EU member. You'll never hear from me again. Can I get that same level of commitment from you?

I know why it is being used: money. Weapons contractors. And few people want to counter that narrative now that the pretense of anti-Americanism is being used (not true unless they leave NATO immediately: just stage stuff -- punch and judy).

*Violated if EU send troops into combat first, of course. Then it's counter. Different thing. Still won't invade but will strike and different level of threat response.
 
Nope. WW2 was preceded by an arms race as well. Arms races inevitably end in war.
The (eventual) Allies or the Soviet Union not participating in the arms race would not have stopped WW2 from happening, it would just have ended with the fascists winning. WW1 was different, in that the arms race itself was a significant reason for the war.
 
It’s ok to admit that. It’s ok to acknowledge why Poles and the Baltic populations are terrified. None of this is about the geopolitics of who was justified or not. It is about having such a definitive confident view in a context where the world is much more unpredictable.
Don't be certain, change your style.

I'm certain about very few things. Russia not invading Europe is one them. It's on par with China invading Europe, not Taiwan or America bombing Germany.

It's not happening. Or, if it does, I'd both like to see and love to avoid the events that would have to lead up to that. It would be like winning the lottery ten times in a row and being struck by lightening (then having a spark of fire from one ticket jump to another and burn all in chronological, from win one to ten, reverse order).

Not even joking.

Actually worse than that because that could happen (will happen in different form somewhere else given enough time - not the lottery example) but the Russian invasion of Europe won''t. There is a Reason not to buffer which says "don't do it because it is self-suicide". Ukraine wasn't. It's not the same thing. Ukraine may be shocking but Europe would be ww3. (any invasion).
 
The idea that Mearsheimer has somehow been largely right on Ukraine is complete lunacy.
He literally predicted it. It's lunacy to pretend he didn't because you don't like him.

Everyone who did predict it used the same predictive base: NATO expansionism. No one, that I've ever heard of, though I'd like to see someone, who predicted it that far out used anything else.

You have to admit the prediction regardless of the entire argument. And you have to admit the predictive base (by default) even if you want to reframe the rationale.