Has political correctness actually gone mad?

[Silva]

So where has this social uprising from the minority groups originated from then ?

It's always been there. Long before your dad was a glimmer in his dads eye.

You see, one of my closest friends is a very successful sales manager who works for a major blue-chip company. He & I met some 20 odd years ago at a media sales conference in Harrogate. He's one of the most positive, inspirational people I've ever met. His peers & subordinates all have the highest respect for him & his strong 'can do' attitude. He has a terrific sense of humour & an ability to shrug of setbacks & negativity. We both have a lot in common insofar that we're both a similar age - he's actually a few years younger than me at 55 - We both came from similar deprived areas. South London for him & north Liverpool for me. Started work at aged just 15, because working class people like us simply didn't go to university. Even if we got the grades required our parents couldn't have afforded it. Both of us were fortunate enough to eventually work for companies that paid for us to study, & obtain, a degree that was relevant to our respective job titles. The only thing we don't have in common is that he's black & I'm white.

One of my closest friends wears a hat. I'm not sure why that matters.

Can you see why some people from an older generation might be struggling to accept this 'victimhood status' from these so-called minorities ? Can you see why some of us can't accept this 'you've never been through what I've been through' mentality ? Because it cuts both ways. They've probably never had to sleep in a bed that's infested with bedbugs that feast on you every night, & have coats used as makeshift blankets on cold nights. It's that perception thing again you see. So when I've gone through my life having accumulated a large group of friends who all come from a diverse range of backgrounds, cultures, & ethnic groups. & when I don't hear any of this 'poor little me' narratives from these same people. I take it, that like me, & many others, they've taken on the challenges that life has thrown at them, overcome the hurdles, & made a good life for themselves based purely on the fact that they are responsible for most of what they achieve.

All I can see is "Woe is me, why do kids who have it better complain"

It's all about attitude & state-of-mind. If you've been brought up in an environment where you're led to believe that the odds are stacked against you, then it's fairly obvious that you're going to struggle to make much of your lives. Those 2 young kids in the video I posted are living proof of that. & I personally think it's very sad.

You'll be dead long before we know what they've made of their lives, so take that shit out of here.

 

[Silva]

Scientific racism and female hysteria are both excellent examples of exactly why the scientific method and rationalism are forces for good in the world. Without enlightenment ideals, and a robust approach to scientific inquiry, how many of these crazy theories might still persist to this day?

Max Planck's point is valid, and speaks to a philosophy of science in line with someone like Thomas Kuhn. You could certainly say that in some fields progress might be slowed merely by the weight of a single reputation, but still this is only ever a temporary stymie and progress is never reversed.

Back to marxism and postmodernism. I'm not so interested in their definitions or histories as I am in how the ideologies are applied. How common interpretations have churned out generations of useless pseudo-academics in the humanities, who contribute absolutely nothing to human advancement and succeed only in deskilling their unfortunate students.

I'd sooner be a sociopathic scientist working to find a cure for malaria than some dopey liberal arts professor crushed by the weight of my own guilt.

Postmodernism has zero real life application. Maybe if you spent a little more time listening to useless pseudo-academics and less time listening to your neo-nazi friends you'd realise that.

 

[Jippy]

It's always been there. Long before your dad was a glimmer in his dads eye.


One of my closest friends wears a hat. I'm not sure why that matters.


All I can see is "Woe is me, why do kids who have it better complain"


You'll be dead long before we know what they've made of their lives, so take that shit out of here.

I think that's a bit harsh, but can understand where you're coming from.
My racist mother actually made a valid point to me about youth's perception of the baby boomer generation, with their affordable housing and good pensions etc...
She grew up when rationing was still going, her family house had an outside loo and she also couldn't go to uni cos she needed to work.
It wasn't the utopian dream people paint when they talk about final salary pension schemes. That generation knew struggle too- but they find modern day ones, like whether Starbucks has a gender neutral toilet, petty, compared to what they faced.
You can see both sides tbh.

EDIT: I do see that young people face horrid challenges around the affordability of housing, education too.

 

[Silva]

I think that's a bit harsh, but can understand where you're coming from.
My racist mother actually made a valid point to me about youth's perception of the baby boomer generation, with their affordable housing and good pensions etc...
She grew up when rationing was still going, her family house had an outside loo and she also couldn't go to uni cos she needed to work.
It wasn't the utopian dream people paint when they talk about final salary pension schemes. That generation knew struggle too- but they find modern day ones, like whether Starbucks has a gender neutral toilet, petty, compared to what they faced.
You can see both sides tbh.

We're not downgrading their struggles though, it's not a case of one or the other. But it is a little grating that the qualms of younger people are always brushed aside as "they're just lazy morons", no doubt when your mother was younger there were people saying "yeah, well, try life without penicillin", and those people had older generations laughing off their qualms because they don't have to be sustenance farmers, etc. etc.

 

[Jippy]

We're not downgrading their struggles though, it's not a case of one or the other. But it is a little grating that the qualms of younger people are always brushed aside as "they're just lazy morons", no doubt when your mother was younger there were people saying "yeah, well, try life without penicillin", and those people had older generations laughing off their qualms because they don't have to be sustenance farmers, etc. etc.

I know. One of the horrid things about ageing is that you kind of turn into what you used to hate.

 

[Snowjoe]

Feel like this belongs in here:

CLASS STRUGGLE: HOW IDENTITY POLITICS DIVIDED A CAMPUS
JOE KOLMAN
JOURNALIST

Meet the Reed student driven out of college for questioning a protest.

http://www.spiked-online.com/newsit...k-lives-matter-free-speech/20417#.WeNirEFX7YU

That’s grim reading. Also I’m assuming the police shooting was nothing related to the college? Wanting a day off for it seems a bit unreasonable.

 

[PedroMendez]

We're not downgrading their struggles though, it's not a case of one or the other. But it is a little grating that the qualms of younger people are always brushed aside as "they're just lazy morons", no doubt when your mother was younger there were people saying "yeah, well, try life without penicillin", and those people had older generations laughing off their qualms because they don't have to be sustenance farmers, etc. etc.

I am happily downgrading some struggles.
I just won't accept when someone pretends to be in a existential struggle about inappropriate Halloween costumes, micro aggressions, wrong pronounce, cultural appropriation or similar stuff. These are at best marginal issues even by today's standards.
It also doesn't help anyone to take this stuff serious. Identities based on victimhood foster paralysis or radicalisation.

 

[Mrs Smoker]

http://appleinsider.com/articles/17...ogizes-to-staff-for-statements-made-at-summit

Apple VP of Inclusion and Diversity Denise Young Smith on Friday issued an internal memo to clarify and apologize for comments made during a business summit last week, reiterating that Apple is committed to creating an inclusive and diverse workplace.

"There can be 12 white blue-eyed blonde men in a room and they are going to be diverse too because they're going to bring a different life experience and life perspective to the conversation,"

 

[Silva]

I am happily downgrading some struggles.
I just won't accept when someone pretends to be in a existential struggle about inappropriate Halloween costumes, micro aggressions, wrong pronounce, cultural appropriation or similar stuff. These are at best marginal issues even by today's standards.
It also doesn't help anyone to take this stuff serious. Identities based on victimhood foster paralysis or radicalisation.

I don't think many people take that stuff seriously. For the most part that's in the "handful of people on twitter" category. A lot of the time there's more people talking about those offended than people who are offended.

 

[PedroMendez]

I don't think many people take that stuff seriously. For the most part that's in the "handful of people on twitter" category. A lot of the time there's more people talking about those offended than people who are offended.

So you agree that we shouldn't take all struggles equally seriously. Just because people throw a tantrum doesn't mean that their opinion is valid.
Good that you clarified that, because your previous post sounded quite different.

 

[Silva]

So you agree that we shouldn't take all struggles equally seriously. Just because people throw a tantrum doesn't mean that their opinion is valid.
Good that you clarified that, because your previous post sounded quite different.

I'm obviously not going to compare the struggle of opening a particularly tight jar of pickles with homelessness, no. But I was very clearly talking about common arguments such as "kids these days". Just because, say, racism was worse a century ago, or someone had bed bugs in their home, or participated in D Day, etc. etc. doesn't invalidate the likes of BLM.

 

[PedroMendez]

I'm obviously not going to compare the struggle of opening a particularly tight jar of pickles with homelessness, no. But I was very clearly talking about common arguments such as "kids these days". Just because, say, racism was worse a century ago, or someone had bed bugs in their home, or participated in D Day, etc. etc. doesn't invalidate the likes of BLM.

I agree that this inter-generational comparison is stupid. Still hardly anyone but grumpy grandparents complain about how soft the youth is nowadays.

Beyond that, much of the public moaning comes from college kids - often those from elite universities (because they have it much easier to be heard). Someone who is going to an ivy league college is by definition not getting hold back. They are extremely privileged and part of a societal elite (and the same goes for other people who can get decent higher education) even compared to their own society.
They might suffer from other things (e.g. mental illness, abuse or what not), but society is not holding them back in terms of job prospects, education or societal status.
They have no reason to complain about suffering from systemic suppression. They don't know what that means.
The article that 2cents posted highlights this delusion perfectly. They don't say "xyz is underrepresented and we should look into that". They say "my own experience was horrible. Everyone is mean to me. That gives me some kind of authority to make demands."
Instead of telling those people to get a grip, colleges seem to go along with this nonsense.

 

[Buchan]

http://appleinsider.com/articles/17...ogizes-to-staff-for-statements-made-at-summit

Apple VP of Inclusion and Diversity Denise Young Smith on Friday issued an internal memo to clarify and apologize for comments made during a business summit last week, reiterating that Apple is committed to creating an inclusive and diverse workplace.

"There can be 12 white blue-eyed blonde men in a room and they are going to be diverse too because they're going to bring a different life experience and life perspective to the conversation,"

I've always considered diversity of thought to be infinitely more important than diversity of skin colour, gender or anything else for that matter. Identity politics is a blight on modern society and the sooner it's binned, the better.

Only a mentalist would suggest a whole room full of white/black/yellow/green people can't be diverse.

 

[Bobcat]

I agree that this inter-generational comparison is stupid. Still hardly anyone but grumpy grandparents complain about how soft the youth is nowadays.

Beyond that, much of the public moaning comes from college kids - often those from elite universities (because they have it much easier to be heard). Someone who is going to an ivy league college is by definition not getting hold back. They are extremely privileged and part of a societal elite (and the same goes for other people who can get decent higher education) even compared to their own society.
They might suffer from other things (e.g. mental illness, abuse or what not), but society is not holding them back in terms of job prospects, education or societal status.
They have no reason to complain about suffering from systemic suppression. They don't know what that means.
The article that 2cents posted highlights this delusion perfectly. They don't say "xyz is underrepresented and we should look into that". They say "my own experience was horrible. Everyone is mean to me. That gives me some kind of authority to make demands."
Instead of telling those people to get a grip, colleges seem to go along with this nonsense.

Yeah, it's mostly this that rubs me the wrong way as well. This self victimization combined with the fact that they are simply bullies, who are more than happy to get people sacked/expelled because they don't buy into their ideas.

 

[Synco]

I am happily downgrading some struggles.

I just won't accept when someone pretends to be in a existential struggle about inappropriate Halloween costumes, micro aggressions, wrong pronounce, cultural appropriation or similar stuff. These are at best marginal issues even by today's standards.

It also doesn't help anyone to take this stuff serious. Identities based on victimhood foster paralysis or radicalisation.

Not disagreeing a good number of these particular issues are marginal, and that politicized narcissism plays a prominent role in much of this. But what's also true is that this whole development is - in the grand scheme of things - mostly marginal, too. The stuff you mention is mainly a matter of serious concern in social microcosmoses like certain university campuses, or in the alternative reality of twitter and sensationalist internet news. That sure doesn't mean it's irrelevant. But perspective matters, and that's what often goes missing in the excitement about things like that.

If you look at a more representative social environment, say, a public school, you are usually not dealing with kids terrorizing others over halloween costumes or micro-aggressions. Teachers will have more trouble stopping some of them from calling others a faggot, a whore, a [racist slur of choice], or bullying/beating up the outsider kid for 'looking stupid'. It's still the classic stuff that's by far the biggest threat to individual freedom from discrimination and violence. And this is true for the adult world too. Denying this simple fact, and trying to stop or dismantle vital counter-measures is, by and large, at the heart of today's anti-pc project. Everyone criticising things like the ones you mention while having more noble goals has to take that into account.

In the end, the tedious outrage rituals of anti-pc crowds work in the same way as those tedious outrage rituals they preferably attack: hyperventilation over, essentially, minor points. And I'd go as far as saying that for the majority of its proponents this is a deliberate (while not always conscious) strategy. They build up 'pc oppression' as a strawman in order to reassert the partly lost cultural and political dominance over minorities. They are also much more numerous and, as a group, dangerous than their activist counterpart.

I'm all for criticizing twitter infantilism and pomo-authoritarianism. But everyone doing so needs a clear idea how to avoid ending up in the same boat as people with Pepe avatars. And when (for example) looking at this thread, this effort is too often lacking.

 

[Jippy]

Well i might have been a bit rash, and a marxist history framework can sure be useful if you look at social/economic history specifically and try to explain certain developments. The problem though is that it often has an ideological baggage that skews the truth to fit a certain narrative. All this is a bit off topic though

Edit: @NinjaFletch

You make some valid points, and i'm not saying marxist historiography does not bring anything valuable to the table, but even looking away from any biases on part of the author it still has certain ideological bias in it's framework. Marxist history was originally used as a tool to bring about and foster revolutions, much like nationalist history in the 19th and 20th century was used to strengthen nationalism. It's also rather deterministic in it's approach. It has of course gone through some changes since then and as far as i know has largely been pushed aside by the Annales School.

Again, this is a bit of topic.

Something on topic: Halloween is coming up, what is ok/not ok for the kids to dress up as?

I think this.

'Anne Frank' children's costume sparks controversy

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41651066

 

[Bobcat]

I think this.

'Anne Frank' children's costume sparks controversy

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41651066

Yeah i saw that one, what on earth were they thinking?

 

[Jippy]

Yeah i saw that one, what on earth were they thinking?

Ethics aside, did she have a recognisable 'look' as such?

 

[Mrs Smoker]

This thread always livens up close to Halloween.

 

[Jippy]

This thread always livens up close to Halloween.

I might be being thick, but that just means Pink Floyd to me?

 

[Buchan]

I might be being thick, but that just means Pink Floyd to me?

Same here.

Is it supposed to be insensitive to the building of the borderwall between the United States and Mexico?

Everything can be offensive if you look hard enough, I guess.

 

[Bobcat]

Ethics aside, did she have a recognisable 'look' as such?

She dressed like any other young girl in that period, but i guess "40's girl clothing" does not have as much ring to it

 

[Jippy]

Same here.

Is it supposed to be insensitive to the building of the borderwall between the United States and Mexico?

Everything can be offensive if you look hard enough, I guess.

Oh, jeez, that is a bit of a mental stretch.

She dressed like any other young girl in that period, but i guess "40's girl clothing" does not have as much ring to it

I guess it certainly generated publicity. She just has a non-descript blouse on in that pic.

 

[Mrs Smoker]

 

[2 man midfield]

Google are a bit mad when it comes to this sort of thing, though.

 

[Rooney24]

https://www.itv.com/news/london/201...e-renamed-firefighter-sam-says-brigade-chief/

I have actually written to the makers of 'Fireman Sam' and asked them on his 30th birthday to reconsider naming him 'Firefighter Sam' to join in on the inclusive nature.

I like the concept, I like the fact it's a cartoon that educates people and helps children learn about the dangers of fire.

But I really would like him to come on board and be called 'Firefighter Sam'.

My 4 year old will not wear this. It would just lead to a million questions from him of why its not Fireman Sam anymore.

worlds gone mad.

 

[berbatrick]

A University President Defended Posters That Encouraged LGBT Students To Kill Themselves
https://www.buzzfeed.com/tasneemnas...ti-lgbt-poster?utm_term=.my4PwWrd3#.xeqMZXQYp

In response to the fliers, Cleveland State president Ronald Berkman said in a statement Monday that while the university respected all individuals, it would protect free speech and uphold the First Amendment "even with regard to controversial issues where opinion is divided."

 

[2 man midfield]

That's about as close to hate speech as it gets. It's amazing how many people don't really get the concept of free speech.

 

[Synco]

That's about as close to hate speech as it gets. It's amazing how many people don't really get the concept of free speech.

There certainly are concepts of freedom of speech that include the right to hate speech. Often it's only direct threats or explicit incitement to violence and other criminal acts that's considered illegal in these cases. The US seem to be very liberal in that respect, for example.

Edit: This piece sums it up.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion...t-amendment/q9m4IqfQvbo24nnlnPor1O/story.html

 

[crappycraperson]

That's about as close to hate speech as it gets. It's amazing how many people don't really get the concept of free speech.

As I understand it hate speech per-say is not illegal in US, only direct call or incitement of violence is. That is you can say that all latinos should be lynched but not say that we or you should lynch all latinos.

 

[SteveJ]

Surely the disgraceful slogan at the top of the poster counts as incitement to violence (against the self, so to speak)?

 

[berbatrick]

There was a thread here where a teenager's texts were taken as inducement for suicide and she was prosecuted, right? The court found that the 1st amendment didn't protect that.

 

[JustAFan]

This thread always livens up close to Halloween.

Looks like Pink Floyd's version except the bricks are not white

 

[Bobcat]

That's about as close to hate speech as it gets. It's amazing how many people don't really get the concept of free speech.

There certainly are concepts of freedom of speech that include the right to hate speech. Often it's only direct threats or explicit incitement to violence and other criminal acts that's considered illegal in these cases. The US seem to be very liberal in that respect, for example.

Edit: This piece sums it up.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion...t-amendment/q9m4IqfQvbo24nnlnPor1O/story.html

In that case i suppose LGBT people are free to tell him he should kill himself as well?

So it's ok to encourage a large demographic of people to take suicide, but for example encouraging everyone to feed the pigeons bread so they shit all over the campus would get you in trouble? I'm a staunch supporter of free speech, and often critical too some of the PC stuff we see from Unis, but this is not free speech, this is flat out hate speech.

 

[2 man midfield]

I'm a staunch supporter of free speech, and often critical too some of the PC stuff we see from Unis, but this is not free speech, this is flat out hate speech.

Same here.

 

[2 man midfield]

There certainly are concepts of freedom of speech that include the right to hate speech. Often it's only direct threats or explicit incitement to violence and other criminal acts that's considered illegal in these cases. The US seem to be very liberal in that respect, for example.

Edit: This piece sums it up.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion...t-amendment/q9m4IqfQvbo24nnlnPor1O/story.html

That's what I'd class it under though. Saying you hate something or someone is fine, but it seems to be pretty clearly inciting harm against a group of pretty vulnerable people. You can't have that.

Maybe the US is different, if so it seems strange that this sort of thing is fine. Putting many people at risk to protect one guys right to be a dick seems odd.

 

[Synco]

That's what I'd class it under though. Saying you hate something or someone is fine, but it seems to be pretty clearly inciting harm against a group of pretty vulnerable people. You can't have that.

Maybe the US is different, if so it seems strange that this sort of thing is fine. Putting many people at risk to protect one guys right to be a dick seems odd.

Me too. To be clear: Legal or illegal, these posters need to land in the bin immediately. Everybody seeing them should take them down. But it seems that putting them up is legal in US/Ohio law. From the original article:

Spoiler: CSU's Queer Student Alliance's statement

Demi Overley, a member of CSU's Queer Student Alliance, said that the president's hands were "tied by the laws of Ohio."

While many students were disappointed in Berkman's initial response, Overley said the focus should be on changing state laws on free speech, instead of criticizing the school's response.

"We are not really satisfied with his seeming support of the message of the fliers," Overley said. However, Overley, acknowledged that it was "hard for [the school] to go above and beyond the law of the state."

https://www.buzzfeed.com/tasneemnas...ti-lgbt-poster?utm_term=.mt24bEK2A#.swxKm7Pxe

In that case i suppose LGBT people are free to tell him he should kill himself as well?

So it's ok to encourage a large demographic of people to take suicide, but for example encouraging everyone to feed the pigeons bread so they shit all over the campus would get you in trouble? I'm a staunch supporter of free speech, and often critical too some of the PC stuff we see from Unis, but this is not free speech, this is flat out hate speech.

I spent some time last night reading about that stuff, and to me it looks like - depending on the specific form of communication/publication - the answer to the second question might well be yes (dunno about the pigeons). Concerning the first question: I'm not sure who's meant by 'him', but targeting a specific individual might be different.

The verdict @berbatrick mentioned is far from being unchallenged too, and still hotly debated. I'm hesitant to drag it out here though, because all this isn't my personal standpoint, speculating about law is both complicated and mind-numbing, and it's hard to make a realistic judgement as a layperson.

 

[crappycraperson]

There was a thread here where a teenager's texts were taken as inducement for suicide and she was prosecuted, right? The court found that the 1st amendment didn't protect that.

In that case, she actively encouraged the suicidal person to commit the act. Like I said my understanding is that if she just lists out positive points of suicide to the concerned person that is fine but if she directly asks the person in question to commit the act in anyway then that is not protected under first amendment.

 

[Bobcat]

I spent some time last night reading about that stuff, and to me it looks like - depending on the specific form of communication/publication - the answer to the second question might well be yes (dunno about the pigeons). Concerning the first question: I'm not sure who's meant by 'him', but targeting a specific individual might be different.

The verdict @berbatrick mentioned is far from being unchallenged too, and still hotly debated. I'm hesitant to drag it out here though, because all this isn't my personal standpoint, speculating about law is both complicated and mind-numbing, and it's hard to make a realistic judgement as a layperson.

Well the stuff about the pidgeons was a bit silly, but i've heard most public institutions have rules against feeding them bread because of bird shit. In any case, this not falling under hate speech is insane, it should not even be a debate.

 

[2cents]

Seriously when is this shit gonna end?

Maybe Don't Dress Your Kid Up As Moana This Halloween?
It's on you to teach your kid not to be racially insensitive.
http://www.redbookmag.com/life/mom-kids/news/a52626/moana-halloween-costume-racist/

Maybe feck off? It's my daughter's first Halloween going out this year, we were going to have her dress as a spider or a monkey or something, but Moana sounds like a good idea about now.