Method is provided at the bottom of the pdf. It's compiled from US census data not from research undertaken by the institute. Hence why there's disagreement over why there is a gender gap - as opposed to whether there is one at all.
Has political correctness actually gone mad?
- Thread starter Pogue Mahone
- Start date
The problem is that there's far too much of it for there not be some systemic disadvantage. It would be like if our blue-eyed players made an average of 10K more a week than our non-blue-eyed players when their positions in the team and performances don't reflect a need for there to be a 10K difference in their earnings.
Does this new right actually have any fecking clue what being "left" means?
It seems they use it as a derogative vessel that could contain anything they do not like. There's at least 5 posters in this thread alone who seem to have no fecking clue what the "left" is. All the crybabies identifying themselves with the "left" doesn't help obviously... but it's not as if the left didn't have a origin or 150 years of tradition (Some great/some tragic).
It is as maddening as the misuse of the word "liberal" in the U.S.
It seems they use it as a derogative vessel that could contain anything they do not like. There's at least 5 posters in this thread alone who seem to have no fecking clue what the "left" is. All the crybabies identifying themselves with the "left" doesn't help obviously... but it's not as if the left didn't have a origin or 150 years of tradition (Some great/some tragic).
It is as maddening as the misuse of the word "liberal" in the U.S.
It's all part of the ever growing polarization, especially in the US, where both sides view evening being on the opposite side as being evil. Any words or ideas presented by someone perceived as being "on the other side" are treated with contempt, while those from someone on "my side" are treated as praise worthy, to hell with actually understanding the content.
Why don't you enlighten us.
http://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentand...rveyofhoursandearnings/2015provisionalresults
The Office for National Statistics recently released a study on it in the UK- if you are interested
Probably not. Unfortunately words like "left" and "liberal" seem to have become buzzwords to encompass a wide variety of people who aren't right-wing. Bizarrely the same people are gathered into one big group, which is silly when you realise this would result in a lot of right-wingers placing the likes of Hilary Clinton and Tony Blair into the exact same group as Jeremy Corbyn and Bernie Sanders. Which is ridiculous.
I blame the populists.
Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't that study support Milo's argument exactly? When you discount all the factors that can skew the results e.g. part time work (women do more) and overtime (men do more), the pay gap all but disappears and actually favours women in one age group. Only in age groups over 40 do men significantly earn more than women. The study even states the belief that this to be due to women taking time out of the labour force to raise children.
You don't honestly believe that do you? So if a newly educated male and a newly educated female get the same job at a company, do you think the salary on his contract says 100,000$/year while hers say 78,000$/year. That stuff does not happen, simply because it's illegal, and this hypothetical woman would have completely annihilated this hypothetical company in a court of law
The pay gap is real, but not because women get paid less for same work. There is a myriad of other reasons. The biggest being that men on average take higher paying jobs like STEM, mining, industry etc vs women who prefer lower paid occupations like education and nursing. Also, there is seniority, leadership, the hours you work etc. Now you could make a very good case for traditional "female occupations" deserving more pay, but the biggest reason they are paid less is that the unions here are much younger and less established then their "male counterpart" unions.
Honestly, i can't believe how people still perpetuate this myth. I have never seen a single proof that women earn less for exactly the same work, i'd wager because none exists. Taking a nationwide average, conveniently ignoring all other factors and then using it as "proof" for something is the mother of all statistical fallacies.
If i were to look at crimes in the UK and Norway, i can see that the UK had roughly 3,7 million reported crimes while Norway had 370,000 in 2014. Ah man, the Brits are so criminal! 10 times the crime! Where is the headlines! (While conveniently ignoring that England roughly has 10 times the population of Norway). I know it's a stupid and exaggerated example, but just trying to point out that statistics can be misused in a number of ways.
Would recommend to watch "Inequality for all" by Robert Reich (former Secretary of labor under Clinton), as he makes a pretty good case for rise in inequality = rise in social unrest = rise in political polarization. Which is exactly what is happening in the US now where the middle class basically has been decimated the last couple of decades by decreased wages and increased living expenses (which also created the housing bubble and following economic collapse)
If that trend does not change fast, i think we can soon see some real class warfare over there
@Bobcat The lack of capitalisation of your 'I's' and inconsistency in putting full stops at the end of paragraphs is really jarring, given how well written your posts are.
100% agree but you are a sexist pig or something.
Rooney gets paid more than Fellani because United obviously discriminate against Belgium's with Bushy hair. I've got stats that prove it.
The averaging and grouping of jobs/sectors while not accounting for any factors (among many more) like time served, experience, qualifications but accounting for sex or race are completely ludicrous.
OK, number of female board members?
It's improving from the 10% mark 5 years ago to 23% nowadays (FTSE100, only 18% for FTSE250) but still way off equal opportunities. Similar percentage for MPs which is surely a profession that people shouldn't be entering until middle age and where a wealth of differing life experiences, including parenthood Miss Leadsom, should be a benefit.
There are some reasons for pay disparities which statistics alone cannot highlight but claiming there is no gender inequality in the workplace because statistics can't account for every nuance is the right's way of brushing any debate under the carpet. Statistics, facts, experts who needs any of them when you've got your fantastic gut instinct and a sense of entitlement eh?
It's blatantly obvious if you open your eyes and look around any work environment that the middle aged, middle class white male still receives preferential treatment. I've worked with hundreds of men through my career who were imposters in their own jobs, winging it, bullshitting and taking the plaudits for work they piled onto lower paid colleagues, hell I'll admit that I wing it far too often as I've grown a bit too lazy to bother my arse competing with these wankers when I know I can outshine them on the spot. In the same time I've only encountered a half dozen or so women at the same level or higher than myself throughout my career and every single one of them has been a model of preparedness and professionalism that put the rest of us to shame because that's what they needed to become to get there, they were also all more alpha male than most of the men in their meetings which led to the typical derisive sneers once it was all boys together for an extended lunch or drink session. Now I know Engineering's not the greatest example of a career path to study for gender equality but the story is not unique to my industry.
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Pissing in public and smoking a joint is illegal too, but most the time the authorities won't care. Equal pay isn't a widely enforced law, either. It usually falls to employees to make a fuss about it and sue to get any movement.
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Seems the best place to post this nugget comedy gold
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...got-sam-harris-milo-yiannopoulos-islamophobia
"It started with Sam Harris... before I knew it, it was Milo!"
My personal favourite bit is
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...got-sam-harris-milo-yiannopoulos-islamophobia
"It started with Sam Harris... before I knew it, it was Milo!"
My personal favourite bit is
@Silva
@Bury Red offers almost entirely anecdotal evidence there.
You would expect white middle class males to dominate board positions in countries where they are the dominant demographic because they have generally higher educational levels and they are less likely to have taken significant time off work for child rearing. I am not saying that there is no discrimination in the work place but should we realistically expect 'equal representation'?
What about these statistics, from a more reliable source surely?
http://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentand...rveyofhoursandearnings/2015provisionalresults
Figure 9 shows gender pay differences by age group. When looking at the differences for full-time employees, the gap is relatively small up to and including those aged 30 to 39 (with the exception of the 16 to 17 age group). In fact, in the 22 to 29 age group, women are paid on average slightly more than men. From 40 upwards, the gap is much wider, with men being paid substantially more on average than women. This is likely to be connected with the fact that women who have children often take time out of the labour market.
Which helps to explain why there are more men in higher paid jobs, skewing the wage gap in mean terms, as you generally need years of experience for these roles and women miss out on the same levels as men due to child rearing.
@Bury Red offers almost entirely anecdotal evidence there.
You would expect white middle class males to dominate board positions in countries where they are the dominant demographic because they have generally higher educational levels and they are less likely to have taken significant time off work for child rearing. I am not saying that there is no discrimination in the work place but should we realistically expect 'equal representation'?
What about these statistics, from a more reliable source surely?
http://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentand...rveyofhoursandearnings/2015provisionalresults
Figure 9 shows gender pay differences by age group. When looking at the differences for full-time employees, the gap is relatively small up to and including those aged 30 to 39 (with the exception of the 16 to 17 age group). In fact, in the 22 to 29 age group, women are paid on average slightly more than men. From 40 upwards, the gap is much wider, with men being paid substantially more on average than women. This is likely to be connected with the fact that women who have children often take time out of the labour market.
Which helps to explain why there are more men in higher paid jobs, skewing the wage gap in mean terms, as you generally need years of experience for these roles and women miss out on the same levels as men due to child rearing.
That's exactly what i said. Is there a pay gap? Undeniably, and i think most sensible people would agree these professions would deserve a wage increase, but disparity in median wages does not mean that women get less pay for the same job. As i said, any employer doing such a thing would be (deservedly) rotting away in prison.
All over the western world, there has been a a lot incentive lately to get women into traditional male (and higher paying) occupations like STEM, IT and finance. The intentions are good and the political will is there, but it's not working. Why? Simply because women don't want to work in these fields and you can't really force them either.
Yes it does, look at pdf. There's varying wage gaps in every occupation.
Afaik, when you're on maternity or paternity leave your rights to wage increases and and all other working rights are protected. If it really is just childbearing making the difference, it's definitely illegal discrimination.
Why not counter with evidence from your own eyes or personal experience, especially when discussing an issue with people whose distrust of experts, facts, statistics and predictions is so evident. My point about senior management is that generally they are people who are well past the possible early/mid career speed bump of child rearing so why isn't equality a fair target for representation at the very top? Board membership is less about time spent and lessons learned at the coalface of a specific business and more about corporate planning, instinct and forecasting where surely the lessons learned in child rearing would be equally valuable to those learned over long lunches and on golf courses whilst I'm pretty sure the time spent out of the workplace caring for children would pale into insignificance with the time spent by many businessmen on the links yet that does not seem to handicap their progression. Why is another round at the 19th hole seen as a networking opportunity but a mother and baby group not?
White middle-class males are not the dominant demographic anywhere outside of the boardroom, golf club and masonic lodge and those boardrooms are not just restricted to countries with caucasian majorities, the bulk of my career has been spent in Asia and the Middle East where even outside his natural habitat the white middle class male somehow seems to thrive and maintain his position of privilege.
Women should have the same opportunities as men. Women, and men, should also have the right to choose to spend less time on career advancement and more on childcare if they so wish.
Opportunity and choice are the keys. It's wrong to limit either.
Opportunity and choice are the keys. It's wrong to limit either.
Bloody political correctness, showing us that black people exist and sing!
#notracistjustconcernedabouttheeconomy
#notracistjustconcernedabouttheeconomy
For fecks sake.
I'm guessing there were no complaints about the lack of white people when they did that advert with the bear and hare? Bloody animals, marginalising us whites!
John Lewis don't even sell golliwogs any more, or Bernard Manning DVDs. White genocide!For fecks sake.
I'm guessing there were no complaints about the lack of white people when they did that advert with the bear and hare? Bloody animals, marginalising us whites!
Don't even joke about it, that's the hash tag on a retweet only 5 down her page, the woman's a complete loon who totally fails to see the irony that she's a proud Brit reclaiming her country from these immigrant hordes from her house in France.
I really do despair at the state of our country, how do these numpties manage to walk and breathe at the same time.
Even all the clothes in their "funeral attire" section are black. Disgrace!
Bloody black people coming over 'ere, having families and existing. Every time a black child is born a white person dies.
And their black puddings.
Just because a median male takes home more than a median female does not mean males/females with the same job/seniority/experience/education etc gets paid differently. Repeating the same phrase won't make it trueJon and Jane with identical job/seniority/experience/education has the same hourly wage, anything other would be illegal, not to mention utterly ridiculous.
Could you imagine the uproar if a company did in fact discriminate females like that?
As i said, there is a wage gap, and there is still plenty of spheres where women are discriminated against, but claiming that men earn more then women for the same job is bollocks
That's why Asda recently lost a tribunal on this issue and may have to pay up to £100M to female employees. Something being illegal doesn't mean non-existent. Birmingham City Council had to pay out almost a billion pound for the gender gap, too. Random bolding added for reasons.
Jon and Jane with identical job/seniority/experience/education has the same hourly wage, anything other would be illegal, not to mention utterly ridiculous.
Could you imagine the uproar if a company did in fact discriminate females like that?
As i said, there is a wage gap, and there is still plenty of spheres where women are discriminated against, but claiming that men earn more then women for the same job is bollocks
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It's a troll. No one will seriously claim that the celebration of Jesus Christ, is a white and british tradition. Christianism is one of the biggest relic of immigration, black people have the same right to be christians than british for the simple reason that none of us invented the thing.
Read her Twitter feed. I'm afraid she's real and if you want the really bad news, she lives in France.
Nah, she's genuine. Any right-minded Christian would be able to recognise the point you're making...but just look at the examples of many extreme-minded US Republican type to see that religion is often not represented in its intended context...if you believe in the inclusive context as you're suggesting, that is.
I read it but I will be in denial, no one is that stupid. It would have been intellectually better to just claim that blacks are inferior instead of pretending that the celebration of a middle eastern religion is reserved to white people.
I went to school with a practicing Christian who didn't know who Judas was until the last few weeks of our Philosophy of Religion A level. Plenty of stupid people around.
Excuse me for my lack of political correctness but these people should be battered with a bible while standing on a map. They must be really confused when they here about Jerusalem pilgrimage.
I still remember the mental breakdown of people when Madonna had a black Jesus in the video for like a prayer.