Has political correctness actually gone mad?

Raoul said:
On the contrary, its a way for groups to reclaim the power associated with terms they have historically felt are discriminatory. And those that complain about PC are generally expressing their frustration that they can't use racially or sexually charged terminology in public settings as they once could years ago. Just yesterday here in the States, Curt Schilling got the sack after reposting a meme mocking transgenders in North Carolina. People are just coming to grips with the reality that they can no longer get away with mocking certain groups in public or on social media, as they once could. These instances aren't supposed to deflect from the underlying problem or cure it completely, they are intended to seize the narrative away from those who discriminate and towards those who reject discriminatory language.
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I just wrote that big post refuting the 1st line and disputing the "PC"ness of the examples you've offered before. None of the examples you listed even remotely does what you say here. Comments on that?

As for Schilling, he was discriminatory he suffered the consequences. If you are saying PC is just a 'catch all' for non-discriminatory, non-bigotry etc etc I fail to see why we need that term at all. It's just redundant. Use 'anti-discriminatory' or 'Inclusive' or 'anti-Bigotry' or similar as they are more precise, clear and addresses precisely what you want to convey.

Saying "I do not discriminate" is waaaaay better and simpler than saying "I'm Politically Correct", which sounds so cover your ass'y.
 
Does anyone really ever say "I'm politically correct"? It's more a denigration these days, as in the title of the thread.
 
Political correctness is a nonsense. It would be smarter to deal with the cause of these psychological issues that create these negative behaviors. So we go from one extreme to the other and they are all represent madness because they have no brakes. So you choose your side and you keep pushing and pushing because you can't stop and maybe you don't want to. These are all psychological conditions. We have behavioral patterns. Which are habits. All within the confines of a collective consciousness. Divided by an illusion of separation. So PC was madness to begin with. It replaced the opposite form of madness.

We need to realize that there is a collective consciousness at play - and lots of people let team 'human' down :) We are dealing with concepts but there's also malevolence. We are maybe part of something greater. It cannot be me me me. That's left hemisphere thinking which leads to control freaks and primitive thinkers. In my opinion - our nature state is in balance and we're being fecked in the head systematically. Pc can only lead to extremism just like it's opposite (in the bigger picture) because the equation is not balanced. It's like an anorexic on one side of a swing and a chubster the other side. The technicality don't matter, when the reality is one weighs more.
 
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Edgar Allan Pillow said:
I just wrote that big post refuting the 1st line and disputing the "PC"ness of the examples you've offered before. None of the examples you listed even remotely does what you say here. Comments on that?

As for Schilling, he was discriminatory he suffered the consequences. If you are saying PC is just a 'catch all' for non-discriminatory, non-bigotry etc etc I fail to see why we need that term at all. It's just redundant. Use 'anti-discriminatory' or 'Inclusive' or 'anti-Bigotry' or similar as they are more precise, clear and addresses precisely what you want to convey.

Saying "I do not discriminate" is waaaaay better and simpler than saying "I'm Politically Correct", which sounds so cover your ass'y.
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You can't really refute them unless you are a member of one of those groups who can talk about the meaning of each term experientially. The fact that you've seen various restaurants describing themselves as Oriental doesn't really speak to how people of Asian descent in America (and elsewhere) generally view the term as a derogatory slur from generations past where whites could routinely use their terminology of choice to refer to "other" groups. Its use has been nearly wiped out in the US because “It’s associated with a time period when Asians had a subordinate status", although I'm guessing its still lingering about in various pockets elsewhere.

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/09/law-bans-use-of-oriental-in-state-documents/
 
Ubik said:
Does anyone really ever say "I'm politically correct"? It's more a denigration these days, as in the title of the thread.
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No one does, but there are plenty who rail about the term as an inconvenience that prevents them from freely talking like they once did "back in the day".
 
Raoul said:
You can't really refute them unless you are a member of one of those groups who can talk about the meaning of each term experientially. The fact that you've seen various restaurants describing themselves as Oriental doesn't really speak to how people of Asian descent in America (and elsewhere) generally view the term as a derogatory slur from generations past where whites could routinely use their terminology of choice to refer to "other" groups. Its use has been nearly wiped out in the US because “It’s associated with a time period when Asians had a subordinate status", although I'm guessing its still lingering about in various pockets elsewhere.

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/09/law-bans-use-of-oriental-in-state-documents/
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What are south Asians referred to as in America? Are they still known as south Asians?
 
To me 'political correctness' is essentially the act of not being a cnut, ie being conscientious of others.

The term is loaded anyway as it suggests that abiding by 'pc' norms is somehow stuffy and overly restrictive of verbal freedoms.

So if someone says to me political correctness has gone mad, to me it just signifies that person has no intention to be inclusive of others and is too lazy to be considerate.

Obviously 'not being a cnut' can go too far like when applause was banned because it may offend others, but that is very very far down the spectrum. Many seem to use 'pc gone mad' as an excuse for causal racism, xenophobia, homophobia, etc.
 
:lol:

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Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Tbh, I still think it's just semantics. Tbh, it's new to me that Iranians, Orientals and Hispanics are all considered non PC.

- I just realized that negro denotes black in spanish. General consensus is that use of Black is more casual and less presumptuous (not sure how reflective they are of current social scene). https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/36hs72/african_americans_of_reddit_do_you_prefer_being/

To be personally African American is a very flaky term. Not all Blacks are Africans and not all Africans are Black. The chasm between African American vs African immigrating into America is quite wide and getting wider every passing generation. Calling them "African American" would soon become a blatant misnomer. (Happy to read about differing perspectives here).

- Hispanics vs Latinos is just semantics. By all means they seem to be mutually interchangeable terms. I just spoke to my colleague and boss (both are Latinos) The only difference is Latinos include all South Americans whereas Hispanics excluded Brazilians (as they are Portuguese by origin). So saying Latinos is a PC version of Hispanics is fundamentally and factually incorrect, PC or not becoming immaterial.

- As for Orientals, there are probably 5 or 6 restaurants that have 'Oriental' to describe their cuisine nearby in NYC itself. I've been to China and Japan before and am pretty sure they consider themselves orientals.

- Imo Persian is even more absurd. It's not even a recognized country/geographical region. A quick Google search brings up that the Shah of Iran in 1935 made an official request to refer to them as Iran and not Persia. And somehow persisting in calling them Persians is PC?

Finally, The official US Census bureau actually has "Blacks or African Americans", "Whites or Caucasians" and "Hispanics or Latinos" as their official race classification. Surely if that was that non-PC they'd have made some changes there.

I can agree on Queer as it's an outright insult and not a name term. I'm still confused on the use of 'gay' as we have gay pride marches, parades with people carrying banners reading 'gay and proud' and similar. Surely if the community considers that non-PC, they'd have differing banners and call the events differently. Another quick Google search bring a court ruling where US court has rules calling someone gay incorrectly is not a slander as there is nothing demeaning or insulting about being gay.

So In essence, I still maintain that PC is just a clever way to take the focus away from the problem at hand. It just adds more labels when we need to have less. It is useless at best and add to confusion at worst. We're better off without the PC crowd.

I usually do not post in detail...but thought this thread warrants it. I'd apologize in prior if I've offended anyone here. This conversation is holistic and not in any way prejudicial.
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Just a quick remark (to @Raoul as well): Persian is an ethnicity (i.e. you have Persian/Farsi as your mother tongue, 55% of Iran), Iranian is a nationality (i.e. you are from the country of Iran). It really is like saying you are English or British - it depends on how you identify yourself. Neither is more factually or politically correct than the other.

Considering the state of the Iranian government, many want to distance themselves from the current nation of Iran itself but identify themselves with the majority culture of Iran instead. Entirely understandable.
 
I read about a model who posed for a topless picture (minus nipples I think) but she was pregnant with a big belly. There was also text in the pic about the sex of the baby (something like 'oh my not so little boy')

The new age liberals are up in arms over this picture. One faction is praising her for being confident in her feminism and being able to pose topless and the other faction is giving her grief that she has assigned a sex to the baby in front of the whole world and she's putting pressure on the baby before it was born to choose a sex. Apparently now sex is a construct and LGBT should be LGBTQ and God forbid the baby belongs in the Q category, the mother has already applied undue pressure for the baby boy to be a boy. I twice checked if these are Onion articles, but they are for real. Since when did sex of a baby become questionable instead of absolute. I get transgender and other issues, but surely there's no harm in assigning a sex to the baby at birth?
 
I'm a very liberal social democrat millennial atheist(gasps for air), born and raised in arguably the most progressive country in the world(probably only behind Sweden).

But even I have to admit that yes, political correctness has in fact gone mad, in some circles. I don't know what annoys me more: the double standards or the fact that people get offended so incredibly easily.
 
So much of this thread follows the same lines...

Excitable person - 'I saw a thing. It's political correctness gone mad!'

Bored enough left-wing person to respond - 'Was it just three people on twitter?'

Formally excitable, now also bored person - 'Yeah, probably'

I do get the feeling this movement against political correctness stems from a desire to counteract a movement within the US universities. Honestly, I really do not know what goes in American colleges, nor care all that much. At present I imagine it's largely grieving over St Bernie's defeat. I'm sure at times it does become ridiculous, as Americans are a bit prone to, and pass well beyond protecting the vulnerable and in to efforts to vilify anyone that can be painted as an enemy, so as to justify the cause. It's the idea that this is something new that baffles me. I mean, politically minded young people being a bit harsh when it comes to their opponents? Whatever is the world coming to!

I can totally understand why your average middle aged person would fear political correctness but this is not only a website that consists largely of young people who spend too much of our lives chatting with strangers from all around the world, but also the fecking CE section, which for the most part only attracts those of us who are at least arrogant enough to think our views matter - which generally goes along with being careful enough to do check ups before posting.

I really do not see where this supposed 'threat to free speech' is coming from. It most certainly isn't coming from a few people not wanting to share a platform with someone else, nor a few people on Twitter who think all babies should be given unisex names.
 
Just read that back - quite like it. Wish I could write that well when doing essays - I mean, it may be bollocks but it's reasonably written bollocks...

Relatedly, got a rather important essay due in six days. Inbox is open to advice.
 
Jippy said:
They quoted the chair of 'Trans*Jersey'? How many members do you reckon that vital organisation has?
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True - but it sounds as though they have more sense than the wo/man who complained:

Vic Tanner Davy, chair of Trans* Jersey, said while the group was "pleased" the tribunal had found in favour of a transgender person, the community preferred "the approach of education" rather than "litigation" against employers.
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When she called the company in September to ask which toilets she should use, Ms Bisson said a staff member "advised me I should be using the disabled toilets".
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Condor, which sails between Poole, Portsmouth, France and the Channel Islands, admitted to a "non-intentional and non-malicious act of discrimination".
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Yeah, that really sounds 'non-malicious'...
 
DiseaseOfTheAge said:
Yeah, that really sounds 'non-malicious'...
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To be fair I imagine it's more likely to be a lack of training and the staff member thinking that the disabled toilet was unisex rather than maliciously implying that it's a disability or something like that.
 
Snowjoe said:
To be fair I imagine it's more likely to be a lack of training and the staff member thinking that the disabled toilet was unisex rather than maliciously implying that it's a disability or something like that.
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Perhaps but to me the fact this woman was clearly very unimpressed and the company seems awfully apologetic suggests otherwise.
 
I'm possibly just being bigoted against Jersey.

I went once. It was just so terrifyingly white (literally did not see a non-white person in the four days I was there) and middle class that my multicultural self could not cope.

I imagine it being what the UK would be like if Nigel Farage was elected King.
 
DiseaseOfTheAge said:
Yeah, that really sounds 'non-malicious'...
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Snowjoe said:
To be fair I imagine it's more likely to be a lack of training and the staff member thinking that the disabled toilet was unisex rather than maliciously implying that it's a disability or something like that.
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I'm not particularly au-fait with discrimination law in Jersey, but presumably that language just is the technical description of what they pleaded guilty to under the law? Bare in mind, the case surely is not whether that staff-member discriminated against her but rather, the company as a whole as a result of that persons actions?

Either way, I thought this was a bit of a non-issue when I read it yesterday. Without having been there to witness it I agree with Snowjoe that this was almost certainly a case of someone attempting to be helpful but giving bad advice based on a lack of training and a lack of company policy on the issue. With that said, I completely understand why being told 'use the disabled loo' was upsetting to her and agree with the verdict that, even if well meaning, it amounts to discrimination.

What I don't really get is how symbols are better than words, but hey, it doesn't effect me in anyway and apparently it makes some peoples lives better, so good for them.
 
NinjaFletch said:
What I don't really get is how symbols are better than words, but hey, it doesn't effect me in anyway and apparently it makes some peoples lives better, so good for them.
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In my capacity as Redcafe's Trans ambassador, I have no idea why it matters to any extent either. But, yeah, it's not exactly hard to change so if it makes someone feel less excluded you might as well go for it.
 
NinjaFletch said:
What I don't really get is how symbols are better than words
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They're not but the use of them means either that:
*It's well-intentioned on the part of whatever company puts them in place, or...
*It's the usual non-culpability method of leaving the signs' interpretations to the viewer, rather than the company taking a definitive position themselves.
 
SteveJ said:
They're not but the use of them means either that:
*It's well-intentioned on the part of whatever company puts them in place, or...
*It's the usual non-culpability method of leaving the signs' interpretations to the viewer, rather than the company taking a definitive position themselves.
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Maybe that is all it is, but it does quote the woman in the article that "Gender is down to identity, symbols is one way of dealing with this". So presumably its something she pushed for herself, rather than something the ferry company decided to introduce off their own backs.

Either way its not worth getting hung up about even if I don't get the logic.
 
DiseaseOfTheAge said:
I'm possibly just being bigoted against Jersey.

I went once. It was just so terrifyingly white (literally did not see a non-white person in the four days I was there) and middle class that my multicultural self could not cope.

I imagine it being what the UK would be like if Nigel Farage was elected King.
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I'd suggest you're being rather bigoted towards Jersey and that's coming from someone who regularly takes the piss out of them as my mother in law and all her side of the family hail from Jersey and have some fairly parochial views. If anything their mentality is the same as that of many small islands or isolated villages where the locals do not have much cause to regularly venture beyond their immediate locale or comfort zone. The lack of ethnic diversity is a result of the obstacles placed in the way of anyone with no Jersey ancestry from settling or living there but given the size of the island, slightly better weather than the UK and attractive tax breaks you can see why they'd have to restrict residents to essential trades or be swamped.

I can assure you you'd struggle to find a less xenophobic or racist group of people though and suggestions that they'd be in any way connected with or in favour of Farage are horrendously insulting. My mother in law grew up during the German occupation of the Channel Islands, a place that Hitler saw as his potential hiding place if things went wrong during the war and which as a result had 1 German soldier for every 3 islanders with any resistance brutally quashed.

Personally I can't even see what the issue is in this case, use whichever toilet corresponds to your "gender" and if you're not comfortable having to make a decision there's a unisex disabled toilet you can always use. Why would you even ask the question unless you were looking for a fight and you moment in the papers?
 
NinjaFletch said:
Maybe that is all it is, but it does quote the woman in the article that "Gender is down to identity, symbols is one way of dealing with this". So presumably its something she pushed for herself, rather than something the ferry company decided to introduce off their own backs.
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True but few people can justifiably claim to speak for, or represent, an entire cause.
 
Bury Red said:
I'd suggest you're being rather bigoted towards Jersey and that's coming from someone who regularly takes the piss out of them as my mother in law and all her side of the family hail from Jersey and have some fairly parochial views. If anything their mentality is the same as that of many small islands or isolated villages where the locals do not have much cause to regularly venture beyond their immediate locale or comfort zone. The lack of ethnic diversity is a result of the obstacles placed in the way of anyone with no Jersey ancestry from settling or living there but given the size of the island, slightly better weather than the UK and attractive tax breaks you can see why they'd have to restrict residents to essential trades or be swamped.

I can assure you you'd struggle to find a less xenophobic or racist group of people though and suggestions that they'd be in any way connected with or in favour of Farage are horrendously insulting. My mother in law grew up during the German occupation of the Channel Islands, a place that Hitler saw as his potential hiding place if things went wrong during the war and which as a result had 1 German soldier for every 3 islanders with any resistance brutally quashed.

Personally I can't even see what the issue is in this case, use whichever toilet corresponds to your "gender" and if you're not comfortable having to make a decision there's a unisex disabled toilet you can always use. Why would you even ask the question unless you were looking for a fight and you moment in the papers?
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I think I'm mainly just annoyed by the amount of 'Welcome to France' texts T-Mobile sent me, over the time I was there. Apparently, every time you you walk near the beach you're in France.
 
DiseaseOfTheAge said:
I think I'm mainly just annoyed by the amount of 'Welcome to France' texts T-Mobile sent me, over the time I was there. Apparently, every time you you walk near the beach you're in France.
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Try living in Singapore, I'd regularly get international call charges from Malaysia or Indonesia whilst sat in my office or at home depending on atmospheric conditions.

I find Jersey's mix of both French and English culture quite charming myself and as I now have a phone that treats me as a local anywhere in Europe the roaming issue wouldn't bother me any more either.
 
Bury Red said:
I'd suggest you're being rather bigoted towards Jersey and that's coming from someone who regularly takes the piss out of them as my mother in law and all her side of the family hail from Jersey and have some fairly parochial views. If anything their mentality is the same as that of many small islands or isolated villages where the locals do not have much cause to regularly venture beyond their immediate locale or comfort zone. The lack of ethnic diversity is a result of the obstacles placed in the way of anyone with no Jersey ancestry from settling or living there but given the size of the island, slightly better weather than the UK and attractive tax breaks you can see why they'd have to restrict residents to essential trades or be swamped.

I can assure you you'd struggle to find a less xenophobic or racist group of people though and suggestions that they'd be in any way connected with or in favour of Farage are horrendously insulting. My mother in law grew up during the German occupation of the Channel Islands, a place that Hitler saw as his potential hiding place if things went wrong during the war and which as a result had 1 German soldier for every 3 islanders with any resistance brutally quashed.

Personally I can't even see what the issue is in this case, use whichever toilet corresponds to your "gender" and if you're not comfortable having to make a decision there's a unisex disabled toilet you can always use. Why would you even ask the question unless you were looking for a fight and you moment in the papers?
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Indeed. Does this individual really expect every single shop, pub, restaurant and other public place to have a separate toilet for trans people? Even that is not without it's issues, ie one half of the patrons will leave the toilet seat up and the other down, presumably. I guess she took offence at the disabled reference without thinking that it might have actually been a valid suggestion, perhaps clumsily worded. As for the company apologising, you'd imagine many pubs and the like are scared of being branded trans, homophobic or racist and the likely ensuing social media 'storm'.
 
Is there any solid reason why some are so quick to give the employee the benefit of the doubt over the "badly-worded" response?
 
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