Has political correctness actually gone mad?

[villain]

It's only a debate if you engage in conversation and challenge their views that way - just shouting people down and calling them names isn't going to change anything and certainly is not going to challenge or change their views which if you really cared about it would be your goal.

Sorry, but this is a an argument thats taken from a position of privilege - and is often used when discussing things like sexism & racism.
If the topic of debate surrounds the erasure of one groups existence or experience, then the group in question is likely to be more emotional, high-strung and therefore more likely to insult the other side of the debate, that shouldn't be the barometer for whether someone really 'cares' about the topic at hand.

If people are calling transpeople 'crazy' and having mental health issues just for existing, you can't then be surprised if others get wound up by it because it's incredibly demeaning.

Keeping your 'cool' within a debate doesn't make you any more legitimate, knowledgeable or articulate than the other side. Also, it certainly doesn't mean you don't care if you are effected emotionally, I would argue it means you care far more.
It's that kind of reasoning that gave the likes of Shapiro a platform.

In which societies historically did people have genders which were interchangeable day by day? And also simply because gender fluidity was practised in different societies, that doesn't mean their societies were better, more stable or more successful than their counterparts, or that these are the societies we should be trying to emulate.

You're comparing sleeping a little too long to changing your entire identity - who you are as a person - on a daily basis. It's a pretty significant jump.

First of all, 'day to day' is hyperbole, the article literally says that the police officer in question has done it "a handful" of times, it's hardly the monday = callum, tuesday = abi, wednesday = callum narrative you're trying to paint for whatever reason.

Secondly, it's not about whether societies were 'better' it's about the fact that transgenderism & gender fluidity is normal & has been normal for thousands of years. Those societies include the Egyptians, Native Indians, Romans & the Greeks - so they weren't exactly bottom of the barrel.

And no i'm not comparing i'm simply saying its a rubbish excuse to say 'there's plenty of psychological problems behind these things', considering there's plenty of psychological problems behind things a lot of people do.

 

[villain]

The article is from 2017 ffs

who cares, let people live their lives

 

[Sweet Square]

Yes, I'm aware of that. Which doesn't automatically mean that everything identified as a mental illness in the future is suddenly void because the government was wrong about homosexuality.

Of course but we have to be carefully with when labelling something a mental illness due to the history.

If somebody who is switching between genders daily (surely this would come under multiple personality disorder?) isn't mentally ill, then what are they?

Here's how you can ask the question and get a good answer without pissing off the forum and coming across as a bigot.

https://www.reddit.com/r/NoStupidQu...y_is_gender_fluidity_not_considered_multiple/

Why is gender fluidity not considered multiple personality disorder?

Person 1 - In advance I apologise if I cause offence, I am not meaning to in any way, I’m genuinely curious how people who identify as multiple personalities wouldn’t be considered to have MPD but not even 5 years ago they would have For backstory in the UK there was a local news story about a girl who went by Patrick/Patricia and seems to swap between the two randomly


Person 2 - People who are gender fluid don't think that they are two different people. They just have different aspects of their identity in different contexts and depending on how they feel. Imagine a world where almost everyone has one genre of music they listen to-- rock people only listen to rock, and pop people only listen to pop. One person actually likes both, depending on the situation and her mood, so she's called music fluid. But she doesn't think she's two different people, a pop person and a rock person. She just thinks that having to be only one of those all the time doesn't work for her.

Person 1 - Sorry if this is another stupid question but why in this case would she say she’s got a different name if it’s not a disorder ? Also how to people decide when they’re male / female ? Sorry if these questions are stupid, for backstory I’m from the UK on the south coast where I’m surrounded by rich old white people, so I’ve never had interactions with many anyone who isn’t male / female.

Person 2 - I think it's more like how some people identify as "Billy" sometimes and "William" other times, depending on the context and how they're feeling. He doesn't think Billy and William are two separate people he switches between, they're both him just in different contexts and moods. People who've only ever heard him be Billy might be confused when they hear someone say something about William and not know who that is, but once they get used to it it's not that hard.

They're pretty normal questions to have, and it's great that you're asking them here-- it gets very tiring for genderqueer people to have to keep answering them all the time when they're just trying to buy groceries or whatever, so it's good that you're asking here where no one needs to answer if they don't feel like it. By the way, I'm not genderqueer but a lot of my friends are so this is based on what they've told me.

Person 1 - I think I get it now, so they can kind of pick and choose depending on the situation they’re in? for example he might be Samuel at work and in a professional environment but Samantha and identify as female in casual / non work setting ?

Person 2 - It could be different in different situation, or it could be just whichever they feel like. Like how my friend introduces himself as Sam half the time and Samuel half the time, I think just kind of whichever comes out. Sort of like how I'm a girl, but sometimes I feel like dressing up and looking pretty, and sometimes I feel like jeans and a loose t shirt. Obviously if I feel like jeans and a loose shirt but I need to go to work, I deal with it and put on work clothes, but in situations where I have a choice, different things feel good different times.

Person 1 - I think I’m starting to understand a little more, thank you very much for the comments it still seems like such an extreme change though compared to clothes though.

Person 2 - For a lot of people, maybe most people, gender is one of the most defining characteristics of who they are, maybe even more than being a human-- you'll see stuff on the internet where men identify with male lions or whatever more than with human women. If it's like that, then you can't really imagine being a different gender sometimes, because it would be like suddenly turning into a lion. But for other people, it's more like a job or an activity, where you can have the same job for your whole life, you can switch jobs, or you can be one of those people who always has tons of different jobs and it doesn't feel like a threat to who they really are.

Person 1 - That makes sense to me thank you for all the comments, it’s been pretty eye opening, and also thanks for the lack of judgment for me not knowing any of this

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

First of all, 'day to day' is hyperbole, the article literally says that the police officer in question has done it "a handful" of times, it's hardly the monday = callum, tuesday = abi, wednesday = callum narrative you're trying to paint for whatever reason.

Secondly, it's not about whether societies were 'better' it's about the fact that transgenderism & gender fluidity is normal & has been normal for thousands of years. Those societies include the Egyptians, Native Indians, Romans & the Greeks - so they weren't exactly bottom of the barrel.

And no i'm not comparing i'm simply saying its a rubbish excuse to say 'there's plenty of psychological problems behind these things', considering there's plenty of psychological problems behind things a lot of people do.

How long after the article posted had the person started this? It was a handful of times then. In theory they could switch between genders as much as they like.

And acting like societies like Ancient Rome or Ancient Greece were gender fluid is misleading. For the most part there were very strict gender structures in both. They're both ancient societies so there were obviously a shit ton of ideas floating about, but gender fluidity wasn't some normal or accepted practise in either worlds. Even Ancient Egypt was absolutely predominantly binary with set understandings/expectations for both men & women. The idea of a 'third gender' that existed in Ancient Egypt have been heavily questioned as well, there's very little actual evidence of it but people found bits and pieces and immediately use it to imply that ancient societies were non-binary.

 

[fergieisold]

And you do realise there's far more evidence of transgenderism & gender fluidity in dozens of civilisations/cultures/countries dating back thousands of years - therefore, it's far more 'normal' in society and history than it is perceived at present

Also, there's plenty of psychological problems with many things humans do - sleeping too long or too little, eating too much or too little, exercising too hard or too little, working too hard or too little etc therefore using mental health as a reason to be a bigot is not only an insult to mental health, but it's incredibly inaccurate way to try to describe the experience of the very people you're harming too.

You can think something is weird if you want, but it's not anyone's place to cast judgement or insist that they conform to your ideals.
It's not your life.

The policeman in question is quoted "I’ve done it a handful of times since and felt so happy that I got to be me at work." I would argue that, that is far better for their psychological wellbeing.

This is the usual go to insult of the unthinking...don’t agree with an opinion so they immediately resort to calling the other party a bigot. It gets really really boring.

I’m well aware of psychological problems with all the things you’ve listed so it’s a mystery why you feel the need to dismiss psychological problems as a factor in some gender issues as bigotry!

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

Here's how you can ask the question and get a good answer without pissing off the forum and coming across as a bigot.

I don't agree that those answers are good. Subjectivity and all.

I like how you focus on the answers which suit your side of things, but what about the people answering in ways you don't agree with?

 

[Vato]

UFC could be forced to dump Octagon girls after politician moans that woman parading in bikinis at fights is ‘outdated’

Live and let live and all that but don't take away the octagon girls you pieces of shit!

Lord Mayor of Melbourne Sally Capp is leading the charge.

She told the Herald Sun: “It's 2019, do we really still need scantily clad women to wander around the middle of a fighting ring between rounds?

“Grid girls are no longer part of Formula One, walk-on girls are no longer part of professional darts - surely it's time to move on.”

They earn good money and no one is forcing them to do it. Honestly, who gives a shit?

I just don't get it. Do they think they're doing the right thing or is it just pure envy and jealousy with some people?

 

[Eboue]

professional darts

 

[Sweet Square]

I don't agree that those answers are good. Subjectivity and all.

I like how you focus on the answers which suit your side of things, but what about the people answering in ways you don't agree with?

Oh god you actually are a bellend. I was tried to engaged in something of a conversation with you but turns out I should have just been insulting you instead(By the way you've yet to give any answers).


@balaks See this is why its pointless debating with these people.

 

[Invictus]

It's only a debate if you engage in conversation and challenge their views that way - just shouting people down and calling them names isn't going to change anything and certainly is not going to challenge or change their views which if you really cared about it would be your goal.

People rarely change their fundamental nature and deeply rooted beliefs, though (especially concerning religion, politics, personal value system) — challenging the orthodox views of someone who's either repeatedly disingenuous or a hard-boiled egg lacking in sensitivity/empathy and incapable of introspection is, quite frankly, a massive waste of time and labor. In that sense a few of the active posters in this thread are not too different from someone like @SwansonsTache in the past (who had a transparent and consistent agenda, and could not be reasoned with)...only they're more aware of their surroundings and better at hiding their “power level”, if you catch my drift.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

Oh god you actually are a bellend. I was tried to engaged in something of a conversation with you but turns out I should have just been insulting you instead.


@balaks See this is why its pointless debating with these people.

Yeah you made a real genuine attempt there to have a conversation with me. I could smell the sincerity from here.

You and your buddies aren't interested in any kind of a discussion. You're interested in a 'it's my belief, or you're a disgusting bigot' line of thinking and you're happy to shout that at anybody who steps out of line.

 

[Shamwow]

Yeah you made a real genuine attempt there to have a conversation with me. I could smell the sincerity from here.

You and your buddies aren't interested in any kind of a discussion. You're interested in a 'it's my belief, or you're a disgusting bigot' line of thinking and you're happy to shout that at anybody who steps out of line.

You're not engaging with this argument in an honest way so you don't really deserve anything other than being called out for your bigoted views.

Example: You onstensibly use the "police officer's" comment to inform your view that the gender fluid PC is a bad thing. Someone points out that it's a former police officer who has been disciplined for having extreme bigoted views. That doesn't change the opinion that you formed from his comment at all. From that point on you were clearly full of shit.

 

[villain]

How long after the article posted had the person started this? It was a handful of times then. In theory they could switch between genders as much as they like.

And acting like societies like Ancient Rome or Ancient Greece were gender fluid is misleading. For the most part there were very strict gender structures in both. They're both ancient societies so there were obviously a shit ton of ideas floating about, but gender fluidity wasn't some normal or accepted practise in either worlds. Even Ancient Egypt was absolutely predominantly binary with set understandings/expectations for both men & women. The idea of a 'third gender' that existed in Ancient Egypt have been heavily questioned as well, there's very little actual evidence of it but people found bits and pieces and immediately use it to imply that ancient societies were non-binary.

Now you're speculating in order to stick to your original hyperbole. A handful of times is the only truth we have.
Unless you can find a follow up article? The onus is on you to find proof that the policeman in question is changing their gender identity daily.

I'm not going to list every civilisation which has documented recordings of a third gender: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_history
Nor is "third gender" the only way to recognise any indication of transgenderism within those societies - it can come from acceptance of cross-dressing or lack of assigned pronouns at birth (this is prevalent in West African history)

The point is that transgenders, and non-binary individuals aren't new, aren't crazy, and don't deserve ridicule. It's really that simple.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

You're not engaging with this argument in an honest way so you don't really deserve anything other than being called out for your bigoted views.

Example: You onstensibly use the "police officer's" comment to inform your view that the gender fluid PC is a bad thing. Someone points out that it's a former police officer who has been disciplined for having extreme bigoted views. That doesn't change the opinion that you formed from his comment at all. From that point on you were clearly full of shit.

There is no argument to be had here. It took about 5 seconds for the insults/put down's to start flying out and the usual brigade to pile in.

I didn't form an opinion from his comment. I used it to point out that people associated with the police force think that there's an issue over wasted resources, but clearly he has an agenda and I recognised that. My view on somebody who changes their gender regularly was set before I read the article at all.

 

[Sweet Square]

Yeah you made a real genuine attempt there to have a conversation with me. I could smell the sincerity from here.

You and your buddies aren't interested in any kind of a discussion. You're interested in a 'it's my belief, or you're a disgusting bigot' line of thinking and you're happy to shout that at anybody who steps out of line.

You started off literally calling people mental ill because they are gender fluid, which so far you shown to be based on nothing(Not to forget the part where you asked someone for a fight) . I tried to explain why being gender fluid isn't the same as having a mental illness like split personal disorder, to which you completely ignored the answers.

Christ is it not exhausting being this straight ?

 

[Shamwow]

There is no argument to be had here. It took about 5 seconds for the insults/put down's to start flying out and the usual brigade to pile in.

I didn't form an opinion from his comment. I used it to point out that people associated with the police force think that there's an issue over wasted resources, but clearly he has an agenda and I recognised that. My view on somebody who changes their gender regularly was set before I read the article at all.

So you didn't use his comment to form an opinion, except in the next sentence you admit that you did use it to inform your view that "people associated with the police force think that there's an issue over wasted resources". So actually you did. You know you can't bullshit about things that you write down in a public forum right? This is why people have stopped engaging with you.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

Now you're speculating in order to stick to your original hyperbole. A handful of times is the only truth we have.
Unless you can find a follow up article? The onus is on you to find proof that the policeman in question is changing their gender identity daily.

I'm not going to list every civilisation which has documented recordings of a third gender: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_history
Nor is "third gender" the only way to recognise any indication of transgenderism within those societies - it can come from acceptance of cross-dressing or lack of assigned pronouns at birth (this is prevalent in West African history)

The point is that transgenders, and non-binary individuals aren't new, aren't crazy, and don't deserve ridicule. It's really that simple.

We don't know the relevance of that 'handful of times' comment. What was it, a handful of times in the space of a week? Two weeks? We don't know. You're speculating just as much as I did.

And I'm aware there's a history of transgenderism and that it isn't just a modern concept. A lot of the examples on that wiki are tenuous at best though, and people grasp for ways to portray societies as something they really weren't because it backs up their current world view. It's revisionism at it's finest.

They don't deserve ridicule, but you can't conclusively say that people who switch between genders regularly are not suffering from some mental disorder.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

So you didn't use his comment to form an opinion, except in the next sentence you admit that you did use it to inform your view that "people associated with the police force think that there's an issue over wasted resources". So actually you did. You know you can't bullshit about things that you write down in a public forum right? This is why people have stopped engaging with you.

I used it as an example of people associated with the police force disagreeing with the move. Why would that mean it's the reason I held that view?

You're acting like I didn't hold a view until I saw that quote, and then suddenly based my views entirely on what this one officer said. Which isn't true.

 

[villain]

We don't know the relevance of that 'handful of times' comment. What was it, a handful of times in the space of a week? Two weeks? We don't know. You're speculating just as much as I did.

And I'm aware there's a history of transgenderism and that it isn't just a modern concept. A lot of the examples on that wiki are tenuous at best though, and people grasp for ways to portray societies as something they really weren't because it backs up their current world view. It's revisionism at it's finest.

They don't deserve ridicule, but you can't conclusively say that people who switch between genders regularly are not suffering from some mental disorder.

You said the policeman was changing their identity daily, you can't prove this to be true - therefore repeating it over and over is insincere at best.

There's statues, elected officials, documented evidence of third genders - these are all facts. Whether you think it's tenuous or a false portrayal of society is your own opinion.

Unless you know the person in question - you have no basis to comment on someone else's mental health.

 

[SteveJ]

They don't deserve ridicule, but you can't conclusively say that people who switch between genders regularly are not suffering from some mental disorder.

Where are the undisputed rules regarding how people should live their lives? By this I mean objective rules, as opposed to rules designed to lump people into a mass beholden to societal order.

 

[Shamwow]

I used it as an example of people associated with the police force disagreeing with the move. Why would that mean it's the reason I held that view?

You're acting like I didn't hold a view until I saw that quote, and then suddenly based my views entirely on what this one officer said. Which isn't true.

It's the only example you used, even when it was pointed out that the example in question was not reliable. So we can only assume that you used it to inform your view that "people associated with the police force disagree with the move".

 

[Zlatan 7]

@villain, I think you mean police ‘officer’ in your above posts.

 

[villain]

@villain, I think you mean police ‘officer’ in your above posts.

You're absolutely right.

 

[shamans]

Now you're speculating in order to stick to your original hyperbole. A handful of times is the only truth we have.
Unless you can find a follow up article? The onus is on you to find proof that the policeman in question is changing their gender identity daily.

I'm not going to list every civilisation which has documented recordings of a third gender: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_history
Nor is "third gender" the only way to recognise any indication of transgenderism within those societies - it can come from acceptance of cross-dressing or lack of assigned pronouns at birth (this is prevalent in West African history)

The point is that transgenders, and non-binary individuals aren't new, aren't crazy, and don't deserve ridicule. It's really that simple.

If this is all that was argued, 99% of people would agree.

It has always existed but has always been seen as more of a disorder and I don't understand why that is such a bad thing to say.

 

[caid]

Maybe the cure for their 'disorder' is to change their gender. How you want to define it isn't entirely relevant. Leaving aside whether its rude or hurtful

 

[SteveJ]

It has always existed but has always been seen as more of a disorder and I don't understand why that is such a bad thing to say.

There are whole groups of people, including those deemed 'mad', who were once considered to have unique and wise insights into everything from existence to practical politics; to ignore this historical fact is also to dismiss groundbreaking modern philosophers and their perceptive conclusions.

I must repeat, because I feel strongly about this, that media denigration and belittlement of these people is a strategy: a strategy of encouraging the masses to avoid thinking that there could be another way of 'government' beyond the flawed and exploitative status quo.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Yeah if you wake up every day and have to decide what gender you feel like on that day, you're totally a mentally stable person and we should all just pretend like that's normal so we don't hurt feelings.

If you ignore the concept of gender, it doesn’t really matter what someone wakes up and feels like. Just be a good human, treat others how you would like to be treated, and that’s good enough to carry society forward in a positive direction.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

You started off literally calling people mental ill because they are gender fluid, which so far you shown to be based on nothing(Not to forget the part where you asked someone for a fight) . I tried to explain why being gender fluid isn't the same as having a mental illness like split personal disorder, to which you completely ignored the answers.

Christ is it not exhausting being this straight ?

It’s ok to say mentally ill. If the same people also accept others using the term ‘Mental Openness’.

The problem is the idea of a cookie cutter ideal of ‘Baseline normal’.

Something being ‘Normal’ means everything that deviates is abnormal. It’s here that we run into issues.

I’ve experienced plenty of people that have a world view based on newspaper clippings that’s massively out of step with how they act in real life. They can tear strips off of someone in a Daily Mail article... but if their bus driver swapped from shirt and trousers to a dress every other day, with a smile and niceties... they’d tell positive stories about that.

People are just really weird.

 

[shamans]

If you ignore the concept of gender, it doesn’t really matter what someone wakes up and feels like. Just be a good human, treat others how you would like to be treated, and that’s good enough to carry society forward in a positive direction.

That may work in an alternate universe but definitions and labels serve purpose for the most part.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

That may work in an alternate universe but definitions and labels serve purpose for the most part.

What purpose exactly?

Also: If we’re not trying to create an alternative world, there’s no fecking point.

 

[shamans]

What purpose exactly?

Also: If we’re not trying to create an alternative world, there’s no fecking point.

In all of science and research gender is very important. In simple things like fighting the wage gape and enabling women to have more access to fields like technology, it is important.

Your idea of not worrying about anyone's gender is a very naive one, despite your good intentions.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

In all of science and research gender is very important. In simple things like fighting the wage gape and enabling women to have more access to fields like technology, it is important.

Your idea of not worrying about anyone's gender is a very naive one, despite your good intentions.

None of those things are true.

‘Equal pay for everyone’ solves the problem better than ‘Equal pay for women’.

People are just way too precious about words, and not sensitive enough to basic humanity.

 

[shamans]

None of those things are true.

‘Equal pay for everyone’ solves the problem better than ‘Equal pay for women’.

People are just way too precious about words, and not sensitive enough to basic humanity.

That's just fantasy. Women getting maternity leave that they deserve for instance is a huge issue. Since men don't get it, women shouldn't either?

Also, a focus on women in STEM fields is needed right now. The playing field is not level. You can't just be unfair to one gender or years and then say "alright, all equal from now" once you're in a position of power

 

[Cait Sith]

Absolutely it has.

In Berlin there occured a traffic incident a few days ago. A man in a Porsche SUV killed 4 pedestrians, driving straight into them. The driver seems to have had an epileptic seizure but for a week now the media is phantasizing about banning SUVs from cities and why they are pointless and only there to show off mixed with environment arguments which have nothing to do with the actual reason for the incident. As if a 1.4 ton Honda Civic driving straight into pedestrians with over 40 mph would not have the same outcome, let alone heavy electric cars which weigh more than some SUVs.

 

[JakeC]

Absolutely it has.

In Berlin there occured a traffic incident a few days ago. A man in a Porsche SUV killed 4 pedestrians, driving straight into them. The driver seems to have had an epileptic seizure but for a week now the media is phantasizing about banning SUVs from cities and why they are pointless and only there to show off mixed with environment arguments which have nothing to do with the actual reason for the incident. As if a 1.4 ton Honda Civic driving straight into pedestrians with over 40 mph would not have the same outcome, let alone heavy electric cars which weigh more than some SUVs.

With respect, what does any of that have to do with Political Correctness?

 

[Shamwow]

Yeah that's health and safety gone mad, which is a bit too early 2000s for this thread.

 

[Cait Sith]

With respect, what does any of that have to do with Political Correctness?

It's politically correct and en vogue right now to condemn cars and specifically bigger cars due to the hot (no pun intented) climate change topic. Ever since the Green Party is polling around 25 % in Germany (for years they were a 8 - 10 % party), politicians and media have framed their narratives around that topic. Even a simple car incident has turned into a political debate about big evil SUVs, including climate debate. If a politician came out right now that he owned a private Porsche SUV, media would roast him. The politically correct way to move from point A to B is by public transportation, by bike or with an electric car at most.

Think it has to do with the topic.

 

[berbatrick]

The politically correct way to move from point A to B is by public transportation, by bike or with an electric car at most.

This is the best argument for PC culture I've ever seen.

 

[berbatrick]

What areas of the playing field are not level in STEM right now?

A professor at a world-famous university refuses to hire any women who aren't Asian, since they would naturally not be able to keep up with the rigorous maths his research needs. Nobody complains (including the Asian women who get in and then get told that they're in because they're Asian) because it would jeopardise their own docorate, relationship with the university, and their future career before it has started.

*Asian means East Asia, not India, etc. So China, Japan, and Korea.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

That's just fantasy. Women getting maternity leave that they deserve for instance is a huge issue. Since men don't get it, women shouldn't either?

Also, a focus on women in STEM fields is needed right now. The playing field is not level. You can't just be unfair to one gender or years and then say "alright, all equal from now" once you're in a position of power

How is what I said in any way a suggestion of me wishing to take away maternity leave? Plenty of countries already give both parents parental leave after having a child. Given both humans that have a child, equal time at home with their new child is a good idea. Though at the same time, the human that’s pushed another life out of her body and experienced some pretty big physical trauma, should dictate what that number of weeks/months that runs too.

Regarding a focus on women in stem.... it’s less about promoting women, than it is removing all of the barriers that are there. Anything limiting should burn.

Level the opportunity. Across the board. That was my point.