Has political correctness actually gone mad?

AFC NimbleThumb said:
black people don’t move in a number of the spaces the character ventures
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Can you expand? I don't follow...
Reddy Rederson said:
I guess because I dont see it as actual change. Its just playing up to the audience without actual progress in how we treat each other.
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The whole reason this current fork of discussion has happened is in response to a change, an actual change. You can argue on the merits or quibble about whether it is indeed change, while discounting the audience (who is the audience?)... But, imo, using terms like "virtue signalling" do nothing to help wrt "actual progress in how we treat each other".
 
afrocentricity said:
Can you expand? I don't follow...
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Of course.

The galas, events, underground meetings that the character often has to infiltrate are dominantly ‘white’ in their make up. The character often has to go under the radar for parts of this which he does by ‘blending in’ before being identified then having to fight his way out of some ridiculous situation.

Idris in these spaces would immediately stand out for the obvious reason; ‘who’s the big black lad in this members only event that is 99.9% white to begin with’.

I just think the discourse for that franchise has been set for decades; [rightly or wrongly] he’s a white man of a certain build & characteristic that is [rightly or wrongly] intrinsic to the way the story is told. ‘007’ is one of many ‘bonds’ so perhaps Idris could be ‘008’ or something; of course I’m overthinking a fictional character but I think a black bond would become so gimmicky it would actually hinder ‘the cause’.
 
AFC NimbleThumb said:
Of course.

The galas, events, underground meetings that the character often has to infiltrate are dominantly ‘white’ in their make up. The character often has to go under the radar for parts of this which he does by ‘blending in’ before being identified then having to fight his way out of some ridiculous situation.

Idris in these spaces would immediately stand out for the obvious reason; ‘who’s the big black lad in this members only event that is 99.9% white to begin with’.

I just think the discourse for that franchise has been set for decades; [rightly or wrongly] he’s a white man of a certain build & characteristic that is [rightly or wrongly] intrinsic to the way the story is told. ‘007’ is one of many ‘bonds’ so perhaps Idris could be ‘008’ or something; of course I’m overthinking a fictional character but I think a black bond would become so gimmicky it would actually hinder ‘the cause’.
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You'd hope the audience could suspend their disbelief and just go along with that. It's a very, very small detail :lol:
 
2 man midfield said:
You'd hope the audience could suspend their disbelief and just go along with that. It's a very, very small detail :lol:
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People are up in roar that Ariel [a mermaid, something that doesn’t exist] is black.

I’d hope for a lot of things but unfortunately we are eons from a post-racial anything in this world.

I also argue the detail isn’t very, very small either.
 
AFC NimbleThumb said:
People are up in roar that Ariel [a mermaid, something that doesn’t exist] is black.

I’d hope for a lot of things but unfortunately we are eons from a post-racial anything in this world.

I also argue the detail isn’t very, very small either.
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Oh yeah, there will be people that won't be happy with a black James Bond. I just wouldn't have said the reason for that would be because of his slightly unrealistic presence at upper class parties.
 
2 man midfield said:
Oh yeah, there will be people that won't be happy with a black James Bond. I just wouldn't have said the reason for that would be because of his slightly unrealistic presence at upper class parties.
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Think we’ve got our wires crossed here.

Afrocentricity quoted my white spaces remark where i said Idris wouldn’t be believable for me as Bond, I was explaining that part.

I agree most of the people that wouldn’t be happy couldn’t care less about his presence at these parties due to realism.
 
AFC NimbleThumb said:
Of course.

The galas, events, underground meetings that the character often has to infiltrate are dominantly ‘white’ in their make up. The character often has to go under the radar for parts of this which he does by ‘blending in’ before being identified then having to fight his way out of some ridiculous situation.

Idris in these spaces would immediately stand out for the obvious reason; ‘who’s the big black lad in this members only event that is 99.9% white to begin with’.

I just think the discourse for that franchise has been set for decades; [rightly or wrongly] he’s a white man of a certain build & characteristic that is [rightly or wrongly] intrinsic to the way the story is told. ‘007’ is one of many ‘bonds’ so perhaps Idris could be ‘008’ or something; of course I’m overthinking a fictional character but I think a black bond would become so gimmicky it would actually hinder ‘the cause’.
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I get ya now. This is 007 we are talking though, in the list of unrealistic happenings in each movie that would easily be way down the list....
 
AFC NimbleThumb said:
Think we’ve got our wires crossed here.

Afrocentricity quoted my white spaces remark where i said Idris wouldn’t be believable for me as Bond, I was explaining that part.

I agree most of the people that wouldn’t be happy couldn’t care less about his presence at these parties due to realism.
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I’m just saying you’d hope that little detail could be overlooked. These things can have a little artistic license, and it certainly shouldn’t stop him getting the role if the producers think he’s the man. It’s no less believable than him driving his car off a cliff and walking out without so much as a crease on his suit.
 
My complaint about Elba as Bond would be that he's too old, not that his black. 10 years earlier he would have made a great Bond. Though I seriously doubt society is quite ready for that now, never mind back then, judging by the Ariel backlash. The Daily Hate would have a field day.
 
MadMike said:
My complaint about Elba as Bond would be that he's too old, not that his black. 10 years earlier he would have made a great Bond. Though I seriously doubt society is quite ready for that now, never mind back then, judging by the Ariel backlash. The Daily Hate would have a field day.
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To be honest the hate hasn’t been that bad, certainly not compared to when Michael B Jordan was cast as Johnny Storm.

Plus Elba has been talked about as Bond for years now so it won’t come as quite a shock even for Mail readers.

The Elba being too old is a valid concern though, one I share as well.
 
MadMike said:
My complaint about Elba as Bond would be that he's too old, not that his black. 10 years earlier he would have made a great Bond. Though I seriously doubt society is quite ready for that now, never mind back then, judging by the Ariel backlash. The Daily Hate would have a field day.
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Elba is younger than Craig
 
Carolina Red said:
I’m just saying if Elba were in the role now instead of Craig, he’d be the younger actor.
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Aye, just saying though, I think Bond is best when the actor can take on the role and put their mark on the character. I can't imagine Elba would be physically fit for more than 2 movies if they go the action route.
 
It's ok, they could always replace Idris with a white mermaid.
 
This is Elba's Twitter profile pic (posted only this March).

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He's got good genes. If you put him on a training program, I reckon he could easily be bond for 14 years. Tom Cruise is currently 57, by way of example. All it takes is a good diet, regular excercise and thorough thetan cleansing.
 
AFC NimbleThumb said:
Of course.

The galas, events, underground meetings that the character often has to infiltrate are dominantly ‘white’ in their make up. The character often has to go under the radar for parts of this which he does by ‘blending in’ before being identified then having to fight his way out of some ridiculous situation.

Idris in these spaces would immediately stand out for the obvious reason; ‘who’s the big black lad in this members only event that is 99.9% white to begin with’.

I just think the discourse for that franchise has been set for decades; [rightly or wrongly] he’s a white man of a certain build & characteristic that is [rightly or wrongly] intrinsic to the way the story is told. ‘007’ is one of many ‘bonds’ so perhaps Idris could be ‘008’ or something; of course I’m overthinking a fictional character but I think a black bond would become so gimmicky it would actually hinder ‘the cause’.
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As a fan of the Ian Fleming novels when I was a kid in the 1980s and the movies the only characteristic of James Bond that I inferred as important was that he was British.
A black Englishman fits the James Bond archetype far more than any white American "of a certain build" would
 
Dante said:
This is Elba's Twitter profile pic (posted only this March).

tsN02qrm_400x400.jpg



He's got good genes. If you put him on a training program, I reckon he could easily be bond for 14 years. Tom Cruise is currently 57, by way of example. All it takes is a good diet, regular excercise and thorough thetan cleansing.
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:lol:
 
afrocentricity said:
I get ya now. This is 007 we are talking though, in the list of unrealistic happenings in each movie that would easily be way down the list....
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I really don’t think it would though, it should but if Idris Elba were Bond I doubt there would be any critique about his Aston Martin that can drive under water or fly him to the moon.

This all spawned from my comments on the Little Mermaid & I’m now in a Bond debate but given that The Little Mermaid is not only about cryptozoological finned woman but also has a signing Jamaican lobster & people are falling over themselves because the main character isn’t white I think we’re as far as ever from having people understand that a James Bond of ‘colour’ could be picked on merit.
2 man midfield said:
I’m just saying you’d hope that little detail could be overlooked. These things can have a little artistic license, and it certainly shouldn’t stop him getting the role if the producers think he’s the man. It’s no less believable than him driving his car off a cliff and walking out without so much as a crease on his suit.
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Agreed but I can’t recall [& I don’t speak for every/anyone here really] there being hashtags & social movements to stop people watching the films because his cars drive parallel to a wall but I would guarantee some backlash if Idris were James Bond.
oneniltothearsenal said:
As a fan of the Ian Fleming novels when I was a kid in the 1980s and the movies the only characteristic of James Bond that I inferred as important was that he was British.
A black Englishman fits the James Bond archetype far more than any white American "of a certain build" would
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You’re preaching to the choir here but I can name 2 Americans & an Australian [all white] that have played the role - Can you name me one Black British [or even non British; in-fact let’s open it up to non-white] person that has?

You’re entering this debate with sensibility so I am sure the British characteristic is the most important to you but it’s quite simply not for the majority of the dominant race in the countries the films are marketed towards.
 
Carolina Red said:
Elba is younger than Craig
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Craig is also now too old for Bond. Bond is a guy in his mid to late 30s in the books and Craig is now 51.

And by the time the 26th Bond movie starts getting shot (probably 2023-24), Elba will be older than Craig is now.
 
MadMike said:
Craig is also now too old for Bond. Bond is a guy in his mid to late 30s in the books and Craig is now 51.

And by the time the 26th Bond movie starts getting shot (probably 2023-24), Elba will be older than Craig is now.
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I know that Craig is now too old for Bond. Both of them are.

That said, how tightly are we going to adhere to who "Bond" is? If we adhere tightly to the author's description and illustration of Bond, then there's really no way Elba could be 007 anyway.
 
Carolina Red said:
That said, how tightly are we going to adhere to who "Bond" is? If we adhere tightly to the author's description and illustration of Bond, then there's really no way Elba could be 007 anyway.
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That ship sailed long ago, even before Craig was announced Bond. Bond as a property has surpassed what Fleming is viewed it as.

Elba does look great for his age though so even with my doubts he could pull off 2 movies.
 
FlawlessThaw said:
That ship sailed long ago, even before Craig was announced Bond. Bond as a property has surpassed what Fleming is viewed it as.

Elba does look great for his age though so even with my doubts he could pull off 2 movies.
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If that's the case, then does the age of Bond matter that much?

I'm admittedly a bit of a purist when it comes to adapting literary characters to the screen, because it keeps things (relatively) simple. When you start changing the character, then how far do you/can you go?
 
Carolina Red said:
I know that Craig is now too old for Bond. Both of them are.

That said, how tightly are we going to adhere to who "Bond" is? If we adhere tightly to the author's description and illustration of Bond, then there's really no way Elba could be 007 anyway.
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To be fair even a loose adherence would rule Elba out. If we're being honest he doesn't really fit the profile of a 30-something, posh, upper-class, privately educated, naval academy white boy. It's a stretch too far, even with Elba's impressive acting abilities.

I do have a curiosity to see what he would make of the role, but I feel they'd have to have make a different kind of Bond, unlike the one portrayed in the books. A more gritty, street-wise, human Bond.
 
Carolina Red said:
If that's the case, then does the age of Bond matter that much?

I'm admittedly a bit of a purist when it comes to adapting literary characters to the screen, because it keeps things (relatively) simple. When you start changing the character, then how far do you/can you go?
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It probably doesn’t in the grand scheme of things given how old Roger Moore was by the end of his reign.

The preference on age isn't to do the film itself though, more if the actor is able to leave a mark on the series.
 
FlawlessThaw said:
The preference on age isn't to do the film itself though, more if the actor is able to leave a mark on the series.
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Gotcha. I would agree with this. I really don’t want to see another one film bond.
MadMike said:
To be fair even a loose adherence would rule Elba out. If we're being honest he doesn't really fit the profile of a 30-something, posh, upper-class, privately educated, naval academy white boy. It's a stretch too far, even with Elba's impressive acting abilities.
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I agree.
I do have a curiosity to see what he would make of the role, but I feel they'd have to have make a different kind of Bond, unlike the one portrayed in the books. A more gritty, street-wise, human Bond.
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Yes, he would be perfect to play a more grizzled Bond character. I really enjoyed his roles like that in Luther and The Wire.
 
FlawlessThaw said:
It probably doesn’t in the grand scheme of things given how old Roger Moore was by the end of his reign.

The preference on age isn't to do the film itself though, more if the actor is able to leave a mark on the series.
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A view to a kill was ridiculous with Moore about 70 covered in liver spots.
 
I remember there being hell up when Craig got the role. He was “too short” or “too blonde”, and people got over that. I’m not sure he necessarily has to be identical to Fleming’s aesthetic design, just as long as he follows all the character criteria.
 


From 2016 but still fairly relevant every time there’s a blowout regarding a black actor casted in a previously white role.
 
FlawlessThaw said:


From 2016 but still fairly relevant every time there’s a blowout regarding a black actor casted in a previously white role.
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Very relevant. Obviously told from a ‘funny’ perspective but so damn true.

“Whitewashing might not be an issue if every time a black person was cast in a lead role people didn’t go apeshit”

This is the exact point the Ariel debacle raised again.

*Whitewashing is wrong btw

If anyone has an interest in hearing the perspective from a minority perspective give this podcast a listen

http://blackmenpodcast.com/

3 young black actors reviewing films with black actors in lead roles - I’d recommend ‘The Help’ & ‘Hidden Figures’ episodes if you’re wondering what the video above means about placing white actors in the foreground of minority led films.

*I don’t agree with everything these guys say at all but they make me look at films from a different perspective.

**Anyone with similar recommendations please let me know, I drive a lot in my job so any podcasts you guys listen to. . .
 
MadMike said:
To be fair even a loose adherence would rule Elba out. If we're being honest he doesn't really fit the profile of a 30-something, posh, upper-class, privately educated, naval academy white boy. It's a stretch too far, even with Elba's impressive acting abilities.

I do have a curiosity to see what he would make of the role, but I feel they'd have to have make a different kind of Bond, unlike the one portrayed in the books. A more gritty, street-wise, human Bond.
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60 years of Bond films and various interpretations of the role would makes this a non issue for me. If you can't accept experiments with roles by that stage when can you. I can understand people feeling protective of a source material if it is the first adaptation, at that stage staying as close to the original vision would be my preference but in subsequent versions exploring the characters from different angles can only add to it. I say that having experienced some weird, wonderful and awful takes on Shakespeare over the years.
 
Creepy comment descends into typical DM-readerdom. Is the book renowned for its PC storyline?

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And they want a proper young female actress in that film part.
 
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