That’s a bit of a strange argument, for me. I would say none of our current 11 would get into our best teams of yonder, save perhaps Bruno Fernandes but that feels incredibly spurious given he’s played about 12 games so far for us. We’re still a few players away from competing, but the fact Martial has put up adequate numbers so far as the leading number 9 suggests with slightly better supply he’ll be adequate for 20+ goals a season, which is good enough to win titles. I also think it’s interesting you don’t think Rashford could reach the levels of Salah or Mané. In that case he probably won’t get to the level of our best ever wings in Giggs, Ronaldo etc. Does that mean he isn’t good enough? (Fwiw I think he definitely is good enough, before his injury he was putting up bigger numbers than both Salah and Mané!)
Has Martial done enough to be backed as our long-term #9?
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Considering that even Liverpool's current best 11 would struggle to get half of their players in the best United side. The point is back then we had some of arguably the greatest premier league strikers, wingers, midfielders, defenders ever in the team - Rooney, Ronaldo, Scholes, Ferdinand that's hard to replicate. We had players that would make it into Premier leagues greatest 11
But in this era we at least want to get back to always having the best premier league strikers, midfielders, etc. We currently have Maguire who is top 3 defenders in the Pl, Pogba and Bruno are up there also as the best midfielders in the PL, Henderson, Rashford, Greenwood and AWB are up there as on of the best young players in Europe. Pogba, Bruno, Rashford, AWB, Maguire, Henderson/De Gea that's six players that can make it into the PL best 11 of today.
This thread is now focused on one of the players we have that can't make it right now and that's Martial and like I said, we've always had the best players in the PL. Obviously you can't have a starting 11 with all the players that can feature in PL best 11 but we've always had the best strikers. A typical United team would have had Kane already or bought Auba from Arsenal but we've obviously not been a typical United team in years but the aim is to get back there.
Don't get me wrong given the circumstances Martial has been very solid this season which is why I think he needs another season to prove he's 'the no.9' but he's by no means one of the best strikers in the PL currently which is what some including myself think a typical United team should always have. And some including myself thinks he should be given a bit more time because he has the potential to be one of the best pl strikers
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The issue is, I remember the players you have mentioned as 28 year old and have seen their best days playing in some of the greatest United sides of all time. Even the players who weren't automatic starters have that same luxury. I'd be hesitant to completely rule Martial out right now.
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It entirely is the point though.
I honestly believe if we got to the end of the season in normal time this would be so much less of a debate seeing Martial with Bruno. With Rashford and Pogba potentially also in the side I can understand people questioning Martials past if they ignore the context but his future looks very promising in the immediate season and I think if anything we are more likely to be in a situation next season where we are desperately trying to keep him at the club.
If people think he isn’t good enough and we should have strikers like RVP etc then there must be a better achievable option to bring in like for next season that we’re confident would do a better job otherwise he is the best available option and so is good enough.
Haaland looks promising but throw him in at the deep end into our first team from 3/4 years ago and you’d see him struggling massively like any young forward would. I also don’t believe despite the release clause that we’d be able to get him in for next season. Someone like Dembele perhaps but he’s nowhere near ready to be United’s main CF.
Im happy with Martial being our main CF because I look at the market and do not see a better young striker available nor an achievable world class striker on the market and I’m confident we’ll get a 20+ season out of him next year. Even without Sancho.
Yeah that's another point people don't mention. There really isn't any striker available that we can get significantly better than Martial. Kane and Icardi are the only ones I can think of available but Kane would be too expensive, we've already rejected Icardi. Other strikers available like Jimenez, Dembele etc are not significant upgrades on Martial. Haaland who could end up being our RVP or RVN is also not available. We're stuck with Martial and that's not a bad thing
The reason I would back Martial is because there is no other alternative that jumps out like you said. There is no point mentioning names such as Kane, Haland for the moment because those are unrealistic targets.
Like you said, Jiminez would be a really good striker, but would I want United to spend £50m on a 30 year old striker? Not really. Maybe if he was the missing piece in the jigsaw like RVP when we signed him. But this team is not ready to mount a title challenge yet, so why not persevere with Martial and see what he does next seasom.
I would rather see us get a CM and RW and with Ighalo or someone similar who doesnt mind being on the bench and used as an option for EL or substitute appearances.
That only proves the point. All those others earned their way to be no. 9 at United but did their learning at other clubs. United wasn't the place for them to see if they are good enough. Not in such a crucial position.
We need to regain the expectation that says we should have the best in every position and you get overthrown when someone better comes along. That ruthlessness was the hallmark of Fergie and explains his success.
I understand very few players at the moment compare to our best historically but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be the benchmark.
As was said above we should always aim to have the best in the league in every position.
Shaw is a classic case in point. Yes, left back isn't the most pressing concern but think what added value Evra and Irwin brought and it becomes obvious we should upgrade if possible.
And ignoring all that, I still don't think martial has what it takes to make it. Hes been here long enough and still doesn't have a strikers instinct or movement.
I didn't say that about Rashford. I definitely think he has the potential to be that good. But he isn't there yet and we lack anyone on the right to play that role. Whilst we may buy player x or y or people might deliver, we still need to focus on the now. United cant wait in hope. That's why I would be prepared to give time for Rashford but think it means we need a top number 9.
When rooney and ronaldo were developing we still have RvN as experience. We have no experience up front and I dont see martial as the long term fix. All arguments for him seem to be based on the other players not being good enough or him not having the full season. Lots of excuses.
And I said we should be aiming for players like our previous names. Obviously we don't have any players who were as good as those in our best teams save de gea at the moment. However in all of those times it could be argued they would be the in premier league top 11.
Would martial? There are a number of players in would take in the league right now over him and thay says a lot.
I am not sure you realise but we are not the same United anymore. The ruthlessness only works when you are winning and competing for titles. There is no way a striker in his hay at 25/26 will want to come to United at this time.
You have to realise your position at the negotiating table. At the moment ours is: we want to build a side that will compete in a year or twos time so you have to get players who you think can reach the potential, not ones who are there now.
Times have changed, this football club has changed, football has changes where in those days you could dictate terms to a player, not the case anymore.
Shaw is a classic point, what is wrong with Shaw?
Mate you are under selling United, problem is there is lack of obvious candidates.
Yes I forgot how awful we are now. We will basically have to put guns to peoples heads to get them to sign for us.
Woodward and the like have really done a job on our fanbase.
The reality is we are still united, one of the biggest clubs in the world. If brand, status, fan size and history are not enough then remember we also have shed loads of money.
People forget where Chelsea, city and psg came from....after a couple of years of throwing money at the wrong players (Robinho) they got the talent strategy right and threw money at the right players (aguero silva etc). Those players came for money. Dont fool yourself.
No, the obvious candidates will be:
Harry Kane
Haaland - he is young but again rejected us
Mbappe
Martinez
There are players but they are unattainable. Given our current position, we will not attract the WC players. If we are competing and winning things then this will change.
You forgot Icardi Werner and Aubameyang but we wouldn't get those for different reasons. Whether people like it or not we can't get a significant upgrade on Martial next window. The best we can do is Jimenez or Dembele and even those two have similar stats to Martial. I've heard good things about Edouard though
To be honest with you Ighalo has provided something Martial can't and I think if you gave him a full season would potentially push Martial hard for that first place spot. Especially for certain type games.
In that case we are in agreement. I feel Ighalo provides something different and will not moan about lack of game time or not starting certain games.
I feel in certain games, Martial can be rested and Ighalo starting.
He's been fine but we need to see more especially if Greenwood keeps improving.
I think we need more but I also think that replacing or upgrading on him is not the immediate priority looking at what the team needs. I think we need a RW and DM more thus funds permitting we could sign another striker as competition for but only after solving the issues that affect our build up and chance creation first.
Greenwood - Cole
Rashford - Sheringham
Haaland - Ole
Martial - Yorke
Let's just go 4 strikers when the time is right. We play significant games with 2 strikers in a 352 anyway whilst Rashford and Greenwood and Martial are all great inside forwards.
Rashford - Sheringham
Haaland - Ole
Martial - Yorke
Let's just go 4 strikers when the time is right. We play significant games with 2 strikers in a 352 anyway whilst Rashford and Greenwood and Martial are all great inside forwards.
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Kane isn’t really available though is he. £100m+ for him Levy would want so is United going to spend they not a chance. I don’t doubt that he himself may like the move and I honestly do not think Icardi is a better player for our team than Martial I think he’s different but a sideways or even backwards step as (I know it sounds silly) he only brings goals nothing else in build up or creativity IMO.
Jimenez would be my ideal rotation signing for the club.
I’d be happier to have Jimenez in the squad than no back up and I’d honestly prefer him to Dembele or similar. But I wouldn’t pay over the odds for him.
He has literally only just turned 29 and hasn’t had lots of hard first team football for his career so probably has more in the tank than people give him credit for.
I wouldn’t be happy though if he was bought to replace Martial.
RW is the priority for me give me Sancho and I’d take anyone haha
Ok here we go...
Firstly it doesn’t serve to prove the point the strategy behind signing Martial was to buy one of the most talented young players at the time for a reasonable fee to avoid a future scenario where you want a player like Mbappe for example but cannot possibly afford him. Our club is trying to buy top young talent and develop as it’s always been in our DNA and we very rarely do the at peak big name signing.
It was absolutely the right decision to bring Martial in when we did and he proved his worth in the first season.
You want to get back to the top but aren’t content to do all the work that goes behind it. God help Sir Alex Ferguson’s career if he had started out now because it took him years and years to create the right culture at the club which I hate to be the bearer of bad news had been all but eroded by Moyes, LVG and Mourinho. Ole is building the right way and the club seem to be making sensible transfer decisions now too. You can only afford to be ruthless if you have the players to replace those you cast asunder. We don’t yet and unlike FIFA we can’t just throw money at whatever player and it all goes through fine we aren’t as attractive an option as we were under Sir Alex but we’re getting there
Best striker in the league now probably Kane based on goals but I’d hate to see us shell out £100m+ on him
The benchmark currently should be are they better than what we have, do they want to be here and can we afford them if the answer is yes to those 3 then that’s a player to go after.
Hes one of the best finishers in the league so I trust him.
You say excuses we say context.
Also who in the league would you have as our CF over Martial?
Agreed
Obvious candidates for what you want are players like Mbappe etc it’s not underselling it’s being realistic and that’s ok. For now.
How long has it been since we won the PL?
History only carries you so far and we are behind Liverpool and City in the PL no questions. They have a better first XI and squad at the moment and I’d imagine for at least another season that will be the case.
Yes money talks but we don’t have an unlimited supply of it and shouldn’t look to repeat the mistakes of the past.
Exactly
Is Icardi better for us or just different?
Werner potentially and Aubameyang is at the dreaded age where apparently all players die.
Would be lovely but isn’t quite the same as the example you gave.
The reality is we are United yes, with all the reasons you have listed. That worked in 2016 when we used that tactic for Pogba, Jose and Zlatan. We are United, we want to be back to the top and threw loads of money.
4 years on, we are not any better than we were then.
Now, look at the difference:
City - They done the same, we are a new owner and we would like you (Silva, Aguero) to join us and be part of something amazing, winning the league and here are our plans... fast forward 5 years and they have won league titles and competing. Same with City and PSG.
Now do you see the clear difference? we done the same and failed. You cannot keep using the same tactic to lure players, they look at the evidence. I am not denying they came for money, but believe me they came to win things too.
So please, dont fool yourself to think players like Silva, Aguero, Sancho, Mbappe etc.. do not want to win titles along with making shit loads of money.
You said this..?
Which is saying Rashford isn't on their level. Rashford was above their level before his injury (Salah and Mané). We're not waiting for him to become the real deal now, he has already shown that he is. Add Sancho and you have as dangerous a frontline as any in the Premier League.
I don't see why we would have to stick to either Rashford or Martial as our number nine permanently. Both have shown they can play there and play well but they've also shown they can be dangerous playing out wide too, if we get a player like Sancho in then our front three could be quite fluid and interchangeable which would keep opponents on their toes.
You missed my point completely what I meant though United do have capability to attract players but I don't see significant improvement on Martial barring few names. I agree with your sentiments regarding most of the names mentioned as well. Get our creativity sorted and if Martial fails then look for different option but atleast give him season to prove himself with proper service and I think that's Solskjaer's plan for next season as well .
We can respectively disagree then. In my opinion Rashford has bags of potential and has shown it occasionally but he isn't at the quality of Salah yet. Maybe Mane, but he has been more consistent. Rashford needs to add that.
Rashford will be great for us. But we can't have a team of people waiting to be great. We need some for now.
Yes because Salah is 28 and Rashford is 22. I wouldn't take Salah over Rashford.
This season Salah has 20 goals in 40 Appearances
Rashford has 19 in 31
Salah is playing in a team that is 20+ points clear on top of the league.
Rashford is no longer a potential, he is at a level where he needs to be scoring 20+ goals a season, I hope we see that.
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We need some for now. Ok who?
Couldn't understand all those posts which only leave a goal tally as an argument. Don't we all know how to look up that simple stat? If football is as simple as "the more goals you score the better you are", there would be no room for discussion at all. And, Chicharito would have been a world class striker in that sense with his impressive scoring rate.
In contrast, there's virtually no one from both sides mentioning Martial's centre forward play, which has always been the biggest debate around him. That's quite a surprise really.
In contrast, there's virtually no one from both sides mentioning Martial's centre forward play, which has always been the biggest debate around him. That's quite a surprise really.
Personally I've just come to terms that it's his style of play and it's been good to watch when he's on form. Plus he's still scoring goals. I think most people are also focused on getting a natural no.9 as the second choice to offer something different so it kind of balances things out.
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I think if you go back 20 years poachers or pure strikers were useful and starting for a lot of big clubs and a lot of people are stuck in the mindset of a 30 goal a season striker is world class and to accept anything less is being defeatist because we’re Manchester United blah blah.
I disagree though lots of us have discussed his play style we know he offers a lot more than just a body in the box to tap in. I think the movement side of his game is getting better especially since Fernandes arrived.
The inability by some posters to think critically and apply context to their thinking is amazing. I've seen posters compare Martial to previous strikers we've had as an argument to suggest that he shouldn't be part of our long-term plans which is absolutely ludicrious. Rashford doesnt compare to Giggs, Ronaldo, Beckham. Bruno doesnt compare to Scholes and Keane. Maguire doesnt compare to Rio, Vidic, Stam etc. yet i'm pretty sure the vast majority of those using such arguments to argue against Martial will suggest the likes of Maguire, Bruno and Rashford are very much long term options for us.
Our best players wont be able to express their abilities fully until our dysfunctional squad riddled by shoddy recruitment is sorted out. When players like Paul Pogba struggle to cement a 'world-class' status in our team its pretty evident what kind of conditions our players have played under.
This is Martial's first season as a striker (he played the majority of games in his first season under LVG as a LW due to Depay's struggles) and he's managed 16 goals and 5 assists so far having missed 2 months through injury and playing without Pogba, Bruno and Rashford for significant proportions of the season, thus relying on players like Pereira (!!), James an ageing Mata and Jesse Lingard for service. The vast majority of strikers we've previously employed would absolutely also suffer in certain aspects in similar circumstances.
So to conclude, although he has his flaws as the majority of 24 year old strikers do, in my opinion its abundantly clear that our current number 9, arguably our second most gifted player, who has the same number of goals/assists as Aubameyang and more goals/assists than Harry Kane in comparable minutes played this season deserves to retain his spot as our striker next season. Playing consistently alongside Pogba, Bruno, Rashford and maybe Sancho means he's likely to better the 20-25 goals hes on course to get in all competitions by the end of this term given he'll be playing in a better team surrounded by more players on his wavelength.
Our best players wont be able to express their abilities fully until our dysfunctional squad riddled by shoddy recruitment is sorted out. When players like Paul Pogba struggle to cement a 'world-class' status in our team its pretty evident what kind of conditions our players have played under.
This is Martial's first season as a striker (he played the majority of games in his first season under LVG as a LW due to Depay's struggles) and he's managed 16 goals and 5 assists so far having missed 2 months through injury and playing without Pogba, Bruno and Rashford for significant proportions of the season, thus relying on players like Pereira (!!), James an ageing Mata and Jesse Lingard for service. The vast majority of strikers we've previously employed would absolutely also suffer in certain aspects in similar circumstances.
So to conclude, although he has his flaws as the majority of 24 year old strikers do, in my opinion its abundantly clear that our current number 9, arguably our second most gifted player, who has the same number of goals/assists as Aubameyang and more goals/assists than Harry Kane in comparable minutes played this season deserves to retain his spot as our striker next season. Playing consistently alongside Pogba, Bruno, Rashford and maybe Sancho means he's likely to better the 20-25 goals hes on course to get in all competitions by the end of this term given he'll be playing in a better team surrounded by more players on his wavelength.
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The answer to this question is simple. If you think Martial is not good enough, then who you think we should and would buy to replace him ?
Simply put. Context always matters. He has done more than enough.
Even Liverpool and City's best players will struggle to get into a prime United squad. We had some of the greatest players in premier league history that is difficult to reach. What we can do is at least have the best players in the current premier league.
In the current PL We have De Gea and Henderson who are among the best goalkeepers, Maguire one of the best defenders, AwB and Rashford are not only among the best young players in the world but also among the best right backs and wingers in the PL, if Bruno Pogba and Fred trio is as good as it is on paper we'd have one of the best midfield trios in the PL. Of course it's not necessary to have a squad filled with the best players in every position to win the league but any top side should have one of the best strikers in the league and Martial isn't one of the best strikers in the league...not currently at least
I would give him more time myself. Still young and as you said has plenty of talents and stats to back it up. But sometimes and understandably, his die hard fans are like overprotective fangirls who go out with their pitchforks if you criticize Martial when He had a bad game (where He's invisible). It's ridiculous when you divide a fanbase based on one player that is neither Messi or Ronaldo.
Basically, the people who liked Lukaku are now hating on Martial. And the people who liked Martial, back then was criticizing Lukaku in the same manner as you've just explained. Comparing him to Ruud van Nistelrooy which was stupid.
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This. In order to get the best out of players you need to put quality around them. I think he has done well when available this season and will only get better if he has the likes of Sancho beside him and Bruno and Pogba behind him providing Chances . He is a very talented player and deserves a real chance with real quality around him .
Not yet, but he is our main central striker already de facto. The positives are: he improved as a player under Ole, (especially off the ball movement), looks settled and part of the team, wants to play. If he adapts his game to catch fewer injuries, he is a strong contender.
Fan bases are always going to be divided on some players, you don't need a Messi or Ronaldo for that (not to mention those players never usually divide the fan base, they're too good).
And I don't think anybody saw Lukaku as the reason why Martial was not playing. It was Rashford who was bang average and Sanchez who was just here to collect a paycheck that were the issue. If anything, a lot of people wanted to see Martial with Lukaku up to a point. I still think Martial would be better with another big striker (like Haaland could have been). And for all of his 'fangirls', he's got an equal amount of 'haters' that are just as ridiculous in their criticism of him, devoid of perspective and purely just out of spite for the guy. When the team as a whole has a bad game, there's no place poppin' like the Anthony Martial Performance Thread. It's the chicken and egg theory as far as Marital lovers/haters on why it's now so polarizing, but it's always been a pull and tug between the two bases and I suspect it's not going anywhere and will continue to provide world-class content on the caf to everybody's delight.
Martial is one of the best strikers and wingers in the league. We are lucky to have a player that can excel in 2 important positions.
I also find it interesting how we have so many of the best players in many positions yet we are sitting 5th? Is it not maguire and de gea that have cost us crucial points this season?
Excuse me?
DDG cost us in 2 games.. Everton and Palace where else?
Or are you forgetting the points Rashford, Pogba have cost us missing penalties?