Has Martial done enough to be backed as our long-term #9?

Been one ofhis biggest critics but hands up: the lad has been putting a shift in, tracking, assists, goals...

Ole, staff and Bruno
 
MichaelRed said:
True for a short period considering the goals he was getting but there's more to that when it comes to attacking threat. I firmly believe Rashford was getting this joy because of Martial & that has been evidenced by how hopeless Rashford has looked whenever he has had to play without Martial. Even in that period you refer to, Martial picked up a hamstring injury and missed 5 games in which we lost 1-0 to Newcastle & 2-0 to West Ham, drew 1-1 With Arsenal and Southampton & scraped a 1-0 win against Leicester. That's 5 points from 15 with Rashford only bagging 1 goal during those 5 matches when he was otherwise getting plenty of goals before and after Martial's spell on the medical table.
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Martial struggled even more without Rashford and before Bruno's signing.

2-0 loss vs Liverpool, 2-0 loss to Burnley at OT, 0-0 vs Wolves at OT (This was Bruno's first game).

Also Rashford scored more than 1 goal when Martial didn't play. He scored against Leicester, he scored vs Liverpool (Martial came in last few mins), he scored vs Spurs

Both Rashford and Martial relied on each other which made sense as they were our only attacking threat with Pogba injured and Bruno wasn't signed till Jan end.
 
MadMike said:
If Martial was taking pens, like the other leading strikers at their clubs, he'd be competing for top scorer of the season. Especially considering how many penalties we get (18 for the season?). And he's won most of the pens too and not only he doesn't get to take them, but they don't even count as assists.

I'd like to see a table with mins per goal or assist if we exclude the pens, and see how he compares to other strikers. Bet he won't be far off the the top.
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or better yet add a 80% conversion rate on penalties to his tally, I'm pretty confident he would've scored 8 out 10 pens we've been awarded. When you consider Salah, Kane, Ings, Auba, Vardy and Augero (until recently) all take pens it's only fair.
 
We can go around in circles all day but the facts are.....

1. Kane is better than Martial. There's no denying that. You have to be crazy or extremely biased to think otherwise.

2. The margin at which he's better isn't worth the £120m+ we would have to pay to get him, we have other positions that are more urgent.

3. Martial is still fairly young (24) and can improve. He's linking up well with the players around him and has earned the right to be our number 9 next season.
 
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MichaelRed said:
Is this... is this satire?

Let's break down this utter tosh.

"average before Bruno" no doubt. Any striker in the world would look average when the opposition see you as the only attacking threat and the only supply you're reliant on is coming from Mata, Lingard & Pereira. Were you expecting Martial to pick the ball up in his own box, beat 9 players and slot it home every game? In the first half of the season, we didn't score more than 1 goal in any single game where Martial wasn't playing, even when we were crap he was the shining light for us.

"I want us to buy a top, top No 9. That is not Martial." Ok, he's the 5th highest goalscoring No.9 in the league this season with 17 goals (also 6 assists) behind only Vardy 23G 5A, Auba 22G 3A, Ings 22G 2A & Kane 18G 2A. He has played 200 less minutes than Ings, 300 less than Vardy and 400 less than Auba. Also, if you add his goals and assists then he has contributed to 23 goals, 3 more than Kane who everyone claims is a "top top no.9" & only 2 less than Auba & 1 less than Ings who we've already established played a considerable amount more minutes than him. To top it all off, let's return to the earlier point as well that we played the first half of the season without a single creative midfielder! let's no forget that Pogba was out injured until we signed Bruno.

Another key thing to consider is age. Every position on the pitch matures at a different rate, strikers don't typically hit their prime until they're past 25. Martial is 24 years old & already outperforming the next youngest No.9 I previously mentioned in Kane, who is 27 years old tomorrow. Vardy is 33, Ings is 28 & Aubameyang is 31. Do you really think he won't make up those 1 or 2 goal contributions they're ahead of him by the time he is their age? Give your head a wobble.

"He has improved, but still does not lead the line and inspire his team, score enough goals on a consistent basis, (like Aguero, Lewandoski, Kane, Benzema, even Vardy etc..)" Ok, well we've already debunked the absolute crap you're spouting about Kane in the paragraphs above so I won't go over that again. Let's now focus on your claim he doesn't lead the line and inspire the team. Martial's hold-up play has been nothing short of superb this season. He wins so many fouls, unlike Rashford at no.9 who runs into blind alleys and loses possession. Martial has won us plenty of penalties with his quick-feet and drive. He absolutely inspires the team because he leads the press and the rest of our players follow him. He brings an abundance of energy & when the team isn't playing well he can put them on his back and score one of his thrilling solo goals as we've seen several times now. Martial also plays well when Rashford isn't playing but the same cannot be said about the vice versa, infact Rashford looks lost without Martial and that's because Martial works so hard for the team off the ball and makes the players around him better.

Finally "Martial would not improve any other big club in Europe" Well, it's a damn good job the board vetoed Mourinho's desire to sell Martial or we'd currently be watching him at another big club & we'd be bloody devastated about it too. Thank God he's our no.9.

It's time to end the agenda driven crap against Martial. Sorry if this was a bit too impassioned but I'm so sick of this lad not getting the credit he bloody well deserves. If you're going to keep talking rubbish about this player then it's about time you bring some facts to the fight.
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Great Post. Always loved Martial and I think this season shows that with better players and a manager who believes in him he is a top player. We do not need to replace him. He is a modern number 9 that scores goals and combines well with other players.
 
MichaelRed said:
You'd choose a striker that doesn't fit our system and is the exact opposite to the style of football we want to play to replace our current striker who just had a more productive season than Kane over a winger that is everything Manchester United should be? Seems crazy.
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I just enjoy watching him play and I’m old fashioned in thinking that lethal finishers can fit in most teams. Not like Spurs have been playing a pedestrian brand of football these last few years so don’t really agree with your point on his capability to fit in frankly. I’d also say that Kane has been injured and his career as a whole has been fantastic.

Also, I agreed with the ultimate point which was that a truck load of money on a striker when goals aren’t our problem would not be sensible.

Our defence is still all over the place and looks like it could collapse any time. Would rather see United sign a CB to play beside Maguire and a full back that actually has an end product. Think there is more development opportunities in our current attacking players.
 
alexanderplatz said:
I just enjoy watching him play and I’m old fashioned in thinking that lethal finishers can fit in most teams. Not like Spurs have been playing a pedestrian brand of football these last few years so don’t really agree with your point on his capability to fit in frankly. I’d also say that Kane has been injured and his career as a whole has been fantastic.

Also, I agreed with the ultimate point which was that a truck load of money on a striker when goals aren’t our problem would not be sensible.

Our defence is still all over the place and looks like it could collapse any time. Would rather see United sign a CB to play beside Maguire and a full back that actually has an end product. Think there is more development opportunities in our current attacking players.
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Not looking it up just now but I think Martial has a better conversion rate than Kane. Kane also can't play on the wings which is needed for our interchanging front line.
 
MichaelRed said:
True for a short period considering the goals he was getting but there's more to that when it comes to attacking threat. I firmly believe Rashford was getting this joy because of Martial & that has been evidenced by how hopeless Rashford has looked whenever he has had to play without Martial. Even in that period you refer to, Martial picked up a hamstring injury and missed 5 games in which we lost 1-0 to Newcastle & 2-0 to West Ham, drew 1-1 With Arsenal and Southampton & scraped a 1-0 win against Leicester. That's 5 points from 15 with Rashford only bagging 1 goal during those 5 matches when he was otherwise getting plenty of goals before and after Martial's spell on the medical table.
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Yeah good shouts. I'm just glad we have both, Greenwood and hopefully sancho soon!
 
It seems his mentality has changed completely. He looks more focused and the desire for goals is obvious now.
I am really glad we still have him at our club.
 
Nori- said:
We can go around in circles all day but the facts are.....

1. Kane is better than Martial. There's no denying that. You have to be crazy or extremely biased to think otherwise.

2. The margin at which he's better isn't worth the £120m+ we would have to pay to get him, we have other positions that are more urgent.

3. Martial is still fairly young (24) and can improve. He's linking up well with the players around him and has earned the right to be our number 9 next season.
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Get out. No one wants to hear someone speak sense.
 
Nori- said:
We can go around in circles all day but the facts are.....

1. Kane is better than Martial. There's no denying that. You have to be crazy or extremely biased to think otherwise.

2. The margin at which he's better isn't worth the £120m+ we would have to pay to get him, we have other positions that are more urgent.

3. Martial is still fairly young (24) and can improve. He's linking up well with the players around him and has earned the right to be our number 9 next season.
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Well put. I think we have plenty of goals in our team right now and if we manage to get Sancho we'll add goals and creativity. We don't need to sign a centre forward.
 
MichaelRed said:
Is this... is this satire?

Let's break down this utter tosh.

"average before Bruno" no doubt. Any striker in the world would look average when the opposition see you as the only attacking threat and the only supply you're reliant on is coming from Mata, Lingard & Pereira. Were you expecting Martial to pick the ball up in his own box, beat 9 players and slot it home every game? In the first half of the season, we didn't score more than 1 goal in any single game where Martial wasn't playing, even when we were crap he was the shining light for us.

"I want us to buy a top, top No 9. That is not Martial." Ok, he's the 5th highest goalscoring No.9 in the league this season with 17 goals (also 6 assists) behind only Vardy 23G 5A, Auba 22G 3A, Ings 22G 2A & Kane 18G 2A. He has played 200 less minutes than Ings, 300 less than Vardy and 400 less than Auba. Also, if you add his goals and assists then he has contributed to 23 goals, 3 more than Kane who everyone claims is a "top top no.9" & only 2 less than Auba & 1 less than Ings who we've already established played a considerable amount more minutes than him. To top it all off, let's return to the earlier point as well that we played the first half of the season without a single creative midfielder! let's no forget that Pogba was out injured until we signed Bruno.

Another key thing to consider is age. Every position on the pitch matures at a different rate, strikers don't typically hit their prime until they're past 25. Martial is 24 years old & already outperforming the next youngest No.9 I previously mentioned in Kane, who is 27 years old tomorrow. Vardy is 33, Ings is 28 & Aubameyang is 31. Do you really think he won't make up those 1 or 2 goal contributions they're ahead of him by the time he is their age? Give your head a wobble.

"He has improved, but still does not lead the line and inspire his team, score enough goals on a consistent basis, (like Aguero, Lewandoski, Kane, Benzema, even Vardy etc..)" Ok, well we've already debunked the absolute crap you're spouting about Kane in the paragraphs above so I won't go over that again. Let's now focus on your claim he doesn't lead the line and inspire the team. Martial's hold-up play has been nothing short of superb this season. He wins so many fouls, unlike Rashford at no.9 who runs into blind alleys and loses possession. Martial has won us plenty of penalties with his quick-feet and drive. He absolutely inspires the team because he leads the press and the rest of our players follow him. He brings an abundance of energy & when the team isn't playing well he can put them on his back and score one of his thrilling solo goals as we've seen several times now. Martial also plays well when Rashford isn't playing but the same cannot be said about the vice versa, infact Rashford looks lost without Martial and that's because Martial works so hard for the team off the ball and makes the players around him better.

Finally "Martial would not improve any other big club in Europe" Well, it's a damn good job the board vetoed Mourinho's desire to sell Martial or we'd currently be watching him at another big club & we'd be bloody devastated about it too. Thank God he's our no.9.

It's time to end the agenda driven crap against Martial. Sorry if this was a bit too impassioned but I'm so sick of this lad not getting the credit he bloody well deserves. If you're going to keep talking rubbish about this player then it's about time you bring some facts to the fight.
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Also, if I'm not mistaken, Vardy, Auba, Kane (not sure about Ings) are all penalty takers for their teams. Martial got 17 in the PL, none of which is a penalty.
 
King7Eric said:
Also, if I'm not mistaken, Vardy, Auba, Kane (not sure about Ings) are all penalty takers for their teams. Martial got 17 in the PL, none of which is a penalty.
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I am pretty sure Martial earned more than 5 penalties this season, which is a good contribution as well.

Still, I believe he should have scored A few more goals as he had several easy chances missed this season, and also it would be good to see him score headers more often.

That said, overall progress in his gameplay is obvious, and he is a contender for our PotY
 
Jeffthered said:
This thread amazes me.

Player of the season.. I don't know, we were average before Bruno, and Greenwood also made a huge difference.

I want us to buy a top, top No 9. That is not Martial.

He has improved, but still does not lead the line and inspire his team, score enough goals on a consistent basis, (like Aguero, Lewandoski, Kane, Benzema, even Vardy etc..)

Martial is not in that bracket, and that is the sort of No 9 we need and have always aspired to attract.

Martial would not improve any other big club in Europe. Think about that. Yet he is the best we can do?
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Such a poor assessment.
 
I have to say, he’s nearly convinced me! He’s been more consistent, and seems to be enjoying getting stuck in more than he used to. Most importantly it’s to look as the forwards as one unit, and how well they work together, and he’s key to that.

What we are however missing it for someone to be driving into the box and to score from crosses. That might be Pogba, but that’s clearly a weakness of Martial, and indeed Greenwood and Rashford. I’m not suggesting we need Fellaini mk 2, but we need to add this dimension to our game and we won’t get it from Martial. We need more ways of breaking down teams who park the bus.
 
Jeffthered said:
This thread amazes me.

Player of the season.. I don't know, we were average before Bruno, and Greenwood also made a huge difference.

I want us to buy a top, top No 9. That is not Martial.

He has improved, but still does not lead the line and inspire his team, score enough goals on a consistent basis, (like Aguero, Lewandoski, Kane, Benzema, even Vardy etc..)

Martial is not in that bracket, and that is the sort of No 9 we need and have always aspired to attract.

Martial would not improve any other big club in Europe. Think about that. Yet he is the best we can do?
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I would like to know which number 9s his age or younger you feel can do better. Don't say Haaland as we all know he is unattainable.
 
I certainly think we should stick with Martial as our No.9. Yes, he's not in the same league as Aguero, Lewa, Benzema, Kane, etc but players of that caliber are not easy to get. If we compare Martial with the realistic targets we could aim for in this window, I don't there is anyone who would instantly improve us. His chemistry with Rashford and Greenwood can also not be ignored. We can expect all three to play and improve together as they get more used to each other's movements. We also have other areas of the pitch that are more crucial to address than CF.
 
He's certainly had a great season, I don't see why he wouldn't lead the line for another term at the very least. Out of the many areas we need to upgrade this is way, way down the list.
 
First full season as No9 interrupted by Injury as well as playing in team which lacked creativity for major part of the season , still got Impressive goal tally without being designated penalty taker and highly effective against top opposition what's not to like good luck finding replacement for him .
Best part he is just getting started and have few more gears to go up to.
 
Now Scholes is saying that we need "proper no9". What is wrong with him and Neville? What Martial needs to do to prove that he is "proper no9"?
 
Martial has finally elevated his game. Nowadays he looks like a bull down the centre. He's strong as hell, technically wonderful and has that hunger.

He's 24! His prime is coming. I can't wait to see him fulfill it!
 
STYLOISRED said:
I would like to know which number 9s his age or younger you feel can do better. Don't say Haaland as we all know he is unattainable.
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Most people think Strikers are grown on trees. They are very hard to come by, the proven ones.

You can count on one hand the number of strikers under the age of 25 who have scored 20+ goals. With the support he's about to get from Sancho..... Oh my days.
 
Andycoleno9 said:
Now Scholes is saying that we need "proper no9". What is wrong with him and Neville? What Martial needs to do to prove that he is "proper no9"?
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Some people find it hard to have their views changed when I think it's healthy to be open for change. If a player wasn't rated at one point in his career, it doesn't the player deserves the same judgment if he gets much better
 
Martial is perfect for the way we want to play. He is also excelling as a central striker. I really can't understand this narrative that we need to bring in a proper striker. Then these same pundits heap praise on Firminho. It really is mind boggling.
 
kouroux said:
Some people find it hard to have their views changed when I think it's healthy to be open for change. If a player wasn't rated at one point in his career, it doesn't the player deserves the same judgment if he gets much better
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If you evaluate martial on the last five years instead of the last 10 games..the answer is not yet.
 
Andycoleno9 said:
Now Scholes is saying that we need "proper no9". What is wrong with him and Neville? What Martial needs to do to prove that he is "proper no9"?
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It's demoralising when I hear the way some once great players speak. Do these guys even watch games? In what way is Martial not a proper 9?
 
Andycoleno9 said:
Now Scholes is saying that we need "proper no9". What is wrong with him and Neville? What Martial needs to do to prove that he is "proper no9"?
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Scholes came across as deluded and un informed in his analysis. Harry Kane would be massively overpriced lets say 140 million. He is clearly on his way down and injury prone. That just reminds me of another Sanchez experiment. I would rather spend 108 million on Sancho than 150 million on Harry Kane. It's a very lazy analysis by Scholes and fellow British pundits. They don't seem to offer alternatives to British players, which tells me they are living in the past and are less knowledgeable about world football. You would never hear Neville and Scholes suggest any European or South American alternatives, it's either Grealish or Harry Kane. Very lazy pundits.
 
I don't understand what Martial has to do to get proper praise from the pundits. He's got 23 goals and 8 assists. Has scored every type of goal from long rangers to clinical finishes to a couple of nice headers as well (Chelsea away!).

His link up play down the middle has been the highlight of our attacking prowess. He's not dependent on many other players and has linked well with Greenwood, Bruno and especially Rashford. If you had half our penalty goals to him, like it would be for a Harry Kane or so, he would be at 30 goals and that is after missing close to 2 months of football and playing more than half the remaining period without Bruno and/or Rashford.

For the likes of Merson and Scholes to still come out and say that he doesn't do much is either agenda-led or that they have given up on watching our matches and are just lazily ranting basis some pre-conceived notion. Even if price, injuries or attainability wasn't a constraint, I would still prefer to have Martial over Kane purely because he is perfect for the style of play we're playing and the overall goals scored by the team would be much higher with Martial in it than Kane even if individually Kane might score more.

Shocking stuff from Scholes really to come up with that Kane comment at this stage.
 
In defence of Scholes, he did also have this to say. Contradicts himself slightly but I don’t think he’s asking for Martial to be replaced.

 
The difference between Kane and Martial up top, is the same in nature as the difference between Beckham and Nani on the right wing. They play the positions differently and provide a different set of problems for the opposition defence.

Scholes is obviously a big fan of Martial as a player, but thinks the current front 3 are all similar and would therefore like a different type of option in the CF. As much as Martial FC are desperate to make this about the player, Scholes is clearly talking about the overall system.

And, anyway, the comments were more about what Sancho brings to the mix. Martial was a sidenote.
 
Dante said:
The difference between Kane and Martial up top, is the same in nature as the difference between Beckham and Nani on the right wing. They play the positions differently and provide a different set of problems for the opposition defence.

Scholes is obviously a big fan of Martial as a player, but thinks the current front 3 are all similar and would therefore like a different type of option in the CF. As much as Martial FC are desperate to make this about the player, Scholes is clearly talking about the overall system.

And, anyway, the comments were more about what Sancho brings to the mix. Martial was a sidenote.
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And i agree, but I think that different player needs to be your backup not your starter.

We need an ighalo but better type to come of the bench and change the game.

Our whole style of play would change with kane up top rather than martial. That's your bench option
 
In the past I've thought he might not make the grade and we'd be better investing in a more traditional centre forward, but seeing him in the latter end the of this season makes me think he's an ideal centre forward for the way we are now playing.

Ighalo' s there to bring on if we need a 6 yard poacher.
 
I'd like to start off by saying that Scholes is my favorite United player ever.

That being said, for all his outworldy talents, punditry isn't one of them.
 
Sayros said:
Be English for a start.
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Unfortunately this. After our most successful time with Ronaldo, Rooney and Tevez, and now Liverpool with Firmino you would think that this "proper nr. 9" nonsense would have gone extinct, but no.
 
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