Has Martial done enough to be backed as our long-term #9?

Dante said:
Do you think Neville was wrong to say 'he delayed the shot letting Dier back in'?
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Yes I think he was wrong in his analysis.

Martial controls it with his right foot really well but in order to adjust to a shooting position he needs that half step anyone would.

The ball is still moving at a diagonal away from his right foot so most of the movement is taken off it but not enough to take an early shot. If attempts a moment earlier he’ll either miss it due to the remaining movement laterally on the ball or slice the outside of the ball. This is why the last adjustment is so crucial if he doesn’t do that the quality of the shot becomes so low that it would have been a wasted chance and people would be bemoaning a scuff over a great defensive action

He shot as early as anyone could have it’s absolutely outstanding defending to get back and block him.

I’m not saying he’s perfect, far from it, but there are enough signs throughout the season not to be so critical of him.

There are games where I’ve given him 4/10 where he has had a shocker but that moment I can’t see any player in the league scoring.
 
Answering the thread title has he done enough to be our number 9...absolutely not.
He really isn’t as good as he’s made out to be, he just isn’t the constant threat a striker should be and certainly not what a utd striker should be. A list of previous strikers (apologies if I missed anyone) not in any order, but I would say he isn’t as good as any of them with the exception of maybe forlan in his United days.
Rashford
Rvp
Berba
Tevez
Rooney
Cole
Yorke
Cantona
Teddy
OGS
Forlan
 
Vernon Philander said:
Can see the argument both sides, but have to agree that a more composed striker would have anticipated a sliding Dier, who was very close to him to begin with. Perhaps a weaker but more lofted shot, or a small cut back to his left.
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Oh come on. Why is this being overly analysed
 
Dante said:
Do you think Neville was wrong to say 'he delayed the shot letting Dier back in'?
Click to expand...

Yeah, I think he's way off with that assessment.

Martial effortlessly takes the ball in his stride, opens his body up to create space between himself and the defender, and then releases the shot. The only mistake (if you can call it that) was to shoot across the keeper, allowing for Dier to get a block in.
 
jamesjimmybyrondean said:
Oh come on. Why is this being overly analysed
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You can overly analyze it but when you do, the obvious conclusion is that it wasn't an easy straightforward action. That's the confusing part, people still don't want to accept the obvious conclusion, Dier was well positioned from top to finish.
 
SirScholes said:
Answering the thread title has he done enough to be our number 9...absolutely not.
He really isn’t as good as he’s made out to be, he just isn’t the constant threat a striker should be and certainly not what a utd striker should be. A list of previous strikers (apologies if I missed anyone) not in any order, but I would say he isn’t as good as any of them with the exception of maybe forlan in his United days.
Rashford
Rvp
Berba
Tevez
Rooney
Cole
Yorke
Cantona
Teddy
OGS
Forlan
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Limiting it to Premier League years you can add RvN, McClair and Hughes to that list.

Hell. I'd even take Saha over him.

Martial should be a bench option and see if he can improve to a starting slot from there. My belief is he doesn't have the drive to be consistent, since he doesn't have the drive on the field. He plays like he's already moved to a chinese club and is winding his career down.
 
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jamesjimmybyrondean said:
Oh come on. Why is this being overly analysed
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Well said. I just switch off when the pundits start over analysing just to fill hours of air time once the match has finished. You can’t breakdown situations where a keeper has pulled off possibly the save of the season and say ’well the striker should have got his shot away half a second earlier or kept it a bit lower etc’. Martial did little wrong In either instance. Great block in one, great save in the other.

Andy Gray used to do my head in when someone would thrash a volley in top corner from 30 yards and he’d go back and try and find a way it could have been prevented. It’s nothing punditry and just a waste of time watching it. Neville and Carragher are going the same way.
 
SirScholes said:
Answering the thread title has he done enough to be our number 9...absolutely not.
He really isn’t as good as he’s made out to be, he just isn’t the constant threat a striker should be and certainly not what a utd striker should be. A list of previous strikers (apologies if I missed anyone) not in any order, but I would say he isn’t as good as any of them with the exception of maybe forlan in his United days.
Rashford
Rvp
Berba
Tevez
Rooney
Cole
Yorke
Cantona
Teddy
OGS
Forlan
Click to expand...
Some things to consider:
  1. How many seasons has Martial had as a striker? Are we comparing too soon players who have had their peaks seen and appreciated.
  2. Do you think Martial has hit his peak and cannot improve?
  3. What has Martial been working with creatively compared to those strikers?
  4. What context in terms of overall team (creatively aside) ability are these strikers performing in?
For me this is Martial’s first proper season as a striker and even then he’s had to do a lot of it without support. No Rashford, no Pogba and only Bruno in January. In previous seasons he’s been a winger and even then it’s been in United sides that have been bereft of creativity

I also do not believe he has hit a peak. I think next season will be his best of his career stats wise with Bruno, Pogba, Sancho (fingers crossed) and Rashford to work with.

If we look at creatively who he has been working with this season compared to others

Martial’s Creators (in order of minutes played):
  1. Fred 3119
  2. James 2808
  3. Rashford 2454
  4. Pereira 2205
  5. McTominay 2152
  6. Matic 1768
  7. Mata 1734
  8. Lingard 1714
  9. Greenwood 1683
  10. Fernandes 757
  11. Pogba 637
Realistically the only pure creator he’s had much contact with is Mata and even then he’s 7th on the list. Our two unquestionably best creators are at the very bottom of the list of minutes played.

Statistically speaking this is the reality of what Martial has been working with.

McTominay Fred
James Pereira Rashford
Martial
​
Do you think the above strikers you listed would thrive and have gone on to be top quality with that midfield 5 supporting them?

Those strikers had
  • Giggs
  • Scholes
  • Carrick
  • Keane
  • Beckham
  • Ronaldo
  • Robson etc
They also had great partners around them on both sides of the pitch and upfront.

We have a very disfunctional right side.

The only player on that list that did brilliantly in a poor overall side that wasn’t was RVP and that was him at his absolute peak. Martial hasn’t reached his yet so it’s a bit unfair in my eyes.

jamesjimmybyrondean said:
jamesjimmybyrondean said:
Oh come on. Why is this being overly analysed
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Agendas and I think they’ve picked the wrong clip to try and evidence it.

JPRouve said:
You can overly analyze it but when you do, the obvious conclusion is that it wasn't an easy straightforward action. That's the confusing part, people still don't want to accept the obvious conclusion, Dier was well positioned from top to finish.
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Absolutely.
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JPRouve said:
He didn't delayed though. He controlled the ball with his right foot and in order to shoot with his right foot, he has to reset his feet which he does relatively quickly. That's why you are taught to control the ball with a foot and play it with the other, in this case it wasn't possible because Fernandes played it for Martial's right foot and Dier was well positioned.
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After the touch-and-turn, he takes four steps before releasing the shot. An in form Martial would have hit the shot in a single movement with no readjusting of his feet.

It's pretty obvious he delayed the shot.
 
He didn't had any service in first half so i can't blame him much for that half. But i must say that first choice Man Utd striker must score at least one of those two chances.
For Man Utd player (especially first 11 player) there are no excuses like "good effort" or "he was unlucky" or "it was not clear chance". Man Utd player must do things which are above standard.

But i still think that he is Man Utd no9 quality and i have no doubt that he will score many goals for us.
 
After the first touch of the ball he took 5 steps. Could have taken 2 less. Noticed he kinda hesitate on the 4th steps. Could have at least shed 1 step faster

Dier (albeit without the ball) took 3 steps + 1 sliding tackle
 
Dante said:
After the touch-and-turn, he takes four steps before releasing the shot. An in form Martial would have hit the shot in a single movement with no readjusting of his feet.

It's pretty obvious he delayed the shot.
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No he wouldn't have. He has to stretch his legs in order to control the ball and is therefore out of balance for a shot, that's why he takes reajusting steps. The amount of steps in this case is a function of the small amount of space between him and Dier, with more space he would have taken larger strides and found his balance earlier.
 
BenitoSTARR said:
Some things to consider:
  1. How many seasons has Martial had as a striker? Are we comparing too soon players who have had their peaks seen and appreciated.
  2. Do you think Martial has hit his peak and cannot improve?
  3. What has Martial been working with creatively compared to those strikers?
  4. What context in terms of overall team (creatively aside) ability are these strikers performing in?
For me this is Martial’s first proper season as a striker and even then he’s had to do a lot of it without support. No Rashford, no Pogba and only Bruno in January. In previous seasons he’s been a winger and even then it’s been in United sides that have been bereft of creativity

I also do not believe he has hit a peak. I think next season will be his best of his career stats wise with Bruno, Pogba, Sancho (fingers crossed) and Rashford to work with.

If we look at creatively who he has been working with this season compared to others

Martial’s Creators (in order of minutes played):
  1. Fred 3119
  2. James 2808
  3. Rashford 2454
  4. Pereira 2205
  5. McTominay 2152
  6. Matic 1768
  7. Mata 1734
  8. Lingard 1714
  9. Greenwood 1683
  10. Fernandes 757
  11. Pogba 637
Realistically the only pure creator he’s had much contact with is Mata and even then he’s 7th on the list. Our two unquestionably best creators are at the very bottom of the list of minutes played.

Statistically speaking this is the reality of what Martial has been working with.

McTominay Fred
James Pereira Rashford
Martial
​
Do you think the above strikers you listed would thrive and have gone on to be top quality with that midfield 5 supporting them?

Those strikers had
  • Giggs
  • Scholes
  • Carrick
  • Keane
  • Beckham
  • Ronaldo
  • Robson etc
They also had great partners around them on both sides of the pitch and upfront.

We have a very disfunctional right side.

The only player on that list that did brilliantly in a poor overall side that wasn’t was RVP and that was him at his absolute peak. Martial hasn’t reached his yet so it’s a bit unfair in my eyes.
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You're comfortably the most agenda driven poster on this site.
 
Dante said:
After the touch-and-turn, he takes four steps before releasing the shot. An in form Martial would have hit the shot in a single movement with no readjusting of his feet.

It's pretty obvious he delayed the shot.
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Show me where he should control that ball to get a shot off after touching with his right foot?

Anyone literally anyone who controls with the right foot at that pace cannot then instantly hit with the right you need to have adjustment to get onto the ball which is moving away into space. It’s a lateral movement which you cannot snatch at as you will either miss or slice the edge of the ball you need a solid contact and the only way to get that is with the adjustment.

If Martial kills the ball then Dier is already positioned to deal with it. The only thing Martial can do with that pass to create the space for the shot is exactly what he did and he gets the shot off. It is outstanding defending that gets Dier in the way of the shot not a mistake by Martial.

If he doesn’t take it and move it into space with what is an incredible first touch there is Dier always on the block.

I don’t want to have to frame by frame analyse this but I feel like it’s the only way you’ll see
 
JPRouve said:
No he wouldn't have. He has to stretch his legs in order to control the ball and is therefore out of balance for a shot, that's why he takes reajusting steps. The amount of steps in this case is a function of the small amount of space between him and Dier, with more space he would have taken larger strides and found his balance earlier.
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It was either a bad touch which meant he couldn't set himself up for an instant shot. Or it was a good touch which was followed by a delay.

I think it's clear the touch was good, but he delayed the shot.
 
Dante said:
You're comfortably the most agenda driven poster on this site.
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Critique the post not the poster very basic forum rule.

What have I written that you disagree with and can you explain why it’s not factual and is instead an agenda? I will happily lay into Martial when he isn’t good enough he’s had shocking games but read that post and let’s discuss.

I am presenting the facts of this season with the minutes played. You not liking those facts and then firing an insult at me shows you have no argument to counter.
 
Dante said:
It was either a bad touch which meant he couldn't set himself up for an instant shot. Or it was a good touch which was followed by a delay.

I think it's clear the touch was good, but he delayed the shot.
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That's not the only options. It was a technically good pass but a poor one from a situational standpoint, it's too close to the opponent and too heavy to be played in one or two touches. Martial control was technically good but situationally not ideal, the control that would have allowed him to shoot quickly was to his left but that's where Dier was and therefore not an option.

The conclusion is that Dier played it well, his positioning was good and he forced Martial to play the ball with his right foot which was in this case advantageous for the defender.
 
BenitoSTARR said:
Critique the post not the poster very basic forum rule.

What have I written that you disagree with and can you explain why it’s not factual and is instead an agenda? I will happily lay into Martial when he isn’t good enough he’s had shocking games but read that post and let’s discuss.

I am presenting the facts of this season with the minutes played. You not liking those facts and then firing an insult at me shows you have no argument to counter.
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It's not a criticism, it's a compliment.
 
TheNewEra said:
There needs to be a clinical #9 in the team, a player that you know if you give him the ball he will score.

When we had Ibra in the team you knew if he got the ball in the box he would punish teams.

You don't get that feeling with Rashford or Martial, the team direly needs a true #9 thats not an inverted winger.
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Zlatan missed lots of chances for United if you actually watch back the games that season, he wasn't clinical at all. Several like the same chance Martial is being criticised for.

The difference would be his movement was better than Martial and he got the ball so often/attack was so centred around him that he ended up creating a lot of chances for himself in a way Martial doesn't. But it's rewriting history to say he was clinical in the way Van Nistelrooy or Van Persie were.
 
Martial isn't in my opinion an out an out 9. He's far more effective from the wing where he's often got more space to run in behind a full back thats out of position.

In my opinion, he's also equal to, if not better than Rashford with the ball at his feet in tight spaces out wide. 1-on-1 with a defender he's probably got as much chance as anyone in our squad at getting past them, and you dont often find yourself in this position playing as a 9.

I can't really find enough reasons for playing Martial down the middle and Rashford out wide but hey, thats probably because a I have a 9-5 and Ole's the boss.
 
Dante said:
It's not a criticism, it's a compliment.
Click to expand...
It’s not.

Do you believe:

McTominay Fred
James Pereira Rashford​

Has been of a similar creative standard to the systems those top Manchester United strikers were used to?
 
JPRouve said:
That's not the only options. It was a technically good pass but a poor one from a situational standpoint, it's too close to the opponent and too heavy to be played in one or two touches. Martial control was technically good but situationally not ideal, the control that would have allowed him to shoot quickly was to his left but that's where Dier was and therefore not an option.

The conclusion is that Dier played it well, his positioning was good and he forced Martial to play the ball with his right foot which was in this case advantageous for the defender.
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Dier did well. Martial did the first half of his job well, but the second half poorly.

An in form Martial, Haaland, Aguero, etc. would have taken the shot much sooner.
 
TheNewEra said:
There needs to be a clinical #9 in the team, a player that you know if you give him the ball he will score.

When we had Ibra in the team you knew if he got the ball in the box he would punish teams.

You don't get that feeling with Rashford or Martial, the team direly needs a true #9 thats not an inverted winger.
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I think that being clinical in clear chances is something what nobody can't deny in Martial's case. In one on one situations he is great. Against Spurs he was just one second slow which is imo because of lack of games. All players are little bit rusty right now
 
Dante said:
Dier did well. Martial did the first half of his job well, but the second half poorly.

An in form Martial, Haaland, Aguero, etc. would have taken the shot much sooner.
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Not really which is why this type of actions often ends up that way. It's not as if something special happened. And it's worth mentioning that Dier was always there to block from the moment Martial control the ball to the moment he shot.
 
I forgot what a hell hole this place is after a loss. As usual, we see the same posters making emotional arguments about why Martial is shit and will never make it, whilst presenting zero facts. It's pathetic.
 
After calming down, I think we should give him the benefit of the doubt. He definitely looked like a ST that hasn`t played in 3 months. Once he gets his rhythm back he`ll start scoring again but long term I still think he`ll be replaced by someone, either Greenwood or Haaland up top IMO.
 
Raven said:
I forgot what a hell hole this place is after a loss. As usual, we see the same posters making emotional arguments about why Martial is shit and will never make it, whilst presenting zero facts. It's pathetic.
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And when you present facts rather than making any attempt at countering you get called agenda driven.
 
BenitoSTARR said:
And when you present facts rather than making any attempt at countering you get called agenda driven.
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Like I say, it's pathetic. A bunch of fully grown adults chucking their toys out of the pram because Martial didn't win us the game single handedly.
 
There isn’t a single striker on the planet that can take that shot earlier than Martial did in that situation.
 
BenitoSTARR said:
Some things to consider:
  1. How many seasons has Martial had as a striker? Are we comparing too soon players who have had their peaks seen and appreciated.
  2. Do you think Martial has hit his peak and cannot improve?
  3. What has Martial been working with creatively compared to those strikers?
  4. What context in terms of overall team (creatively aside) ability are these strikers performing in?
For me this is Martial’s first proper season as a striker and even then he’s had to do a lot of it without support. No Rashford, no Pogba and only Bruno in January. In previous seasons he’s been a winger and even then it’s been in United sides that have been bereft of creativity

I also do not believe he has hit a peak. I think next season will be his best of his career stats wise with Bruno, Pogba, Sancho (fingers crossed) and Rashford to work with.

If we look at creatively who he has been working with this season compared to others

Martial’s Creators (in order of minutes played):
  1. Fred 3119
  2. James 2808
  3. Rashford 2454
  4. Pereira 2205
  5. McTominay 2152
  6. Matic 1768
  7. Mata 1734
  8. Lingard 1714
  9. Greenwood 1683
  10. Fernandes 757
  11. Pogba 637
Realistically the only pure creator he’s had much contact with is Mata and even then he’s 7th on the list. Our two unquestionably best creators are at the very bottom of the list of minutes played.

Statistically speaking this is the reality of what Martial has been working with.

McTominay Fred
James Pereira Rashford
Martial
​
Do you think the above strikers you listed would thrive and have gone on to be top quality with that midfield 5 supporting them?

Those strikers had
  • Giggs
  • Scholes
  • Carrick
  • Keane
  • Beckham
  • Ronaldo
  • Robson etc
They also had great partners around them on both sides of the pitch and upfront.

We have a very disfunctional right side.

The only player on that list that did brilliantly in a poor overall side that wasn’t was RVP and that was him at his absolute peak. Martial hasn’t reached his yet so it’s a bit unfair in my eyes.
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Regardless of what others say, excellent posts. Come from the same train of thought and you put the point across brilliantly.

I'm expecting great things from Martial, also Rashy, now we have Bruno and Pogba is almost ready to go full swing. We have lacked creativity for years and it's astonishing people don't realise this. Your strikers won't score much if there is no supply.
 
This season for me was make or break for Martial and while he hasn't made it, I think he has done enough under the circumstances to prove himself as our starting #9 next season. Without Pogba and Bruno for most the season and only playing with Rashford for about half of our games, he has done well enough and we need to sort our right-side before we worry about getting a replacement #9, especially as we have one of the biggest young striking talents in the world in our squad.
 
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He's not a centre forward in a 3, as the second in a front 2 he might be okay but we've never seen that. His real position is surely on the left of a narrow front 3 in a 4-3-3. He can't do it in a 4-2-3-1 as there's too much ground for him to cover and he 's far away from the strikers.

In any case, he's had plenty of time to progress but maybe he's not really going to kick on to be what he should be at United. If he stays around he'll be decent enough to play a role, though. He'll have decent streak or two until the end of the season and he's usually better with Pogba (and Bruno) in the side.
 
TrustInOle said:
Regardless of what others say, excellent posts. Come from the same train of thought and you put the point across brilliantly.

I'm expecting great things from Martial, also Rashy, now we have Bruno and Pogba is almost ready to go full swing. We have lacked creativity for years and it's astonishing people don't realise this. Your strikers won't score much if there is no supply.
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Thank you mate. Really appreciate you saying that!

I’m happy to slate a player when it’s fair to slate them I just think give him next season. He won’t have any excuses if we have Bruno, Pogba and Sancho around him and if he wasn’t putting up good numbers next season with that kind of quality around him I’ll be the first to hold my hands up and say he’s not at the required standard.

I just don’t see it happening personally others may disagree but I’d expect them to do so by countering points or arguments made in support of my position.
 
I thought I replied early on in this thread. Would have looked a lot better me saying "his movement is awful" to then come back now and say "his movement is still awful". Genuinely worrying that after 3 months of stand still coming back and being the exact same player with really awful movement up front. The PL is a fickle leave, if you don't love moving, fighting and making space for yourself against physical opponents you probably won't be a top striker.
 
Losing patience with him tbh. Still relitavely young and maybe that's the reason why we're clinging on. Waiting for that breakthrough if you know what I mean. Cash in while we can but not to a rival club. Big risk he could be one of those who comes back and bites you. Monaco, Lyon springs to mind!
 
Undoubtedly talented, and typically a very accomplished finisher when he gets his chance. But my criticism of Martial is still the same as it always has been: he goes for long periods of the game where he's just not involved at all. Large swathes of the game go by where you don't hear the guy's name. It's just not good enough. It's not all his fault, of course, but it happens way too often to be ignored. I would almost give him a pass for this game, as it was so hard to find any sort of space the way Spurs were playing. But this game isn't an isolated incident.

He's obviously not shit like some people try to make out, but he's very frustrating to watch because you know what he's capable of.
 
My problem with Martial is that he isn't intense/tenacious enough. He doesn't cause a defence enough trouble over 90 minutes. And he doesn't make up for it with moments of brilliance.
 
BusbyMalone said:
Undoubtedly talented, and typically a very accomplished finisher when he gets his chance. But my criticism of Martial is still the same as it always has been: he goes for long periods of the game where he's just not involved at all. Large swathes of the game go by where you don't hear the guy's name. It's just not good enough. It's not all his fault, of course, but it happens way too often to be ignored. I would almost give him a pass for this game, as it was so hard to find any sort of space the way Spurs were playing. But this game isn't an isolated incident.

He's obviously not shit like some people try to make out, but he's very frustrating to watch because you know what he's capable of.
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He's just missing that sense of movement and positioning that the good strikers have.
 
Martial FC better get ready. All the excuses made for him this season were reasonable but they are gone now. It's time for him to step up. I hope he comes through but I think he is going to make people forget what a real striker is actually like.
 
jamesjimmybyrondean said:
Martial FC better get ready. All the excuses made for him this season were reasonable but they are gone now. It's time for him to step up. I hope he comes through but I think he is going to make people forget what a real striker is actually like.
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I completely agree this coming season barring horror injuries he’s got to put up now.

Confident he’ll do it.
 
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