That was my point. I'm shit at getting my point across so thanks.
Harvard University to have black only graduation ceremony.
- Thread starter 2 man midfield
- Start date
That was my point. I'm shit at getting my point across so thanks.
Oh my god like 6 of you quoted me at once, Jesus Christ.
Look - I stand by what I said, you don't have to agree with me.
Being black in a predominantly white space is exhausting.
Hell, being in this thread is exhausting.
Sometimes you need an environment you feel comfortable in, I don't blame these students for wanting that.
Neither do I. I never actually stated my own position in the OP, but there's something about the context and dynamic between white and black people after so much history that means that things never can and never will be be perfect. It's perfectly understandable that there's a sectarianism that has developed. If your oppressors suddenly started being nice to you, would you forgive them or tell them to feck off?
Whatever makes them happy is cool. Doesn't affect me.
First of all, no one is at the doors preventing white people from coming in or participating.
Second, I don't see how the event is negative. It is a positive event of happiness and litness (pardon my language), celebrating how far black people have come in the United States.
Third, to use the word segregation is wildly ignorant of the actual realities of segregation in the US and elsewhere. Feel free to use it when non-black students are repelled from these ceremonies with dogs, water hoses and lynchings.
First. (Seeing as were doing that aggressive tone.) I responded not to the artical but the post which stated it was a black only graduation. "Only" in my knowledge means a certain set of people. (Only ticket holders etc)
Second. It's a negative because it is encouraging the segregation (yes I know you don't like word] of like-minded students.
Third. The use of segregation is apt. Not only because to segregate one's self is by definition..
the action or state of setting someone or something apart from other people or things or being set apart.
"the segregation of pupils with learning difficulties"
the enforced separation of different racial groups in a country, community, or establishment.
Obviously I was referring to the former.
Here endeth the lesson.
Second. It's a negative because it is encouraging the segregation (yes I know you don't like word] of like-minded students.
Third. The use of segregation is apt. Not only because to segregate one's self is by definition..
the action or state of setting someone or something apart from other people or things or being set apart.
"the segregation of pupils with learning difficulties"
the enforced separation of different racial groups in a country, community, or establishment.
Obviously I was referring to the former.
Here endeth the lesson.
@berbatrick
Who do you feel most connection to out of curiosity?
@saivet @rcoobc @SteveJ
You are all appreciated!
@2 Man Midfield
That's literally it, there's a cultural division that will take generations to heal. We can't expect it to happen overnight, and we shouldn't dismiss those who just want to have something to celebrate or be included in - especially if they're the first person to go to college? Or they come from a line of slaves?
They are creating history for their family that they will pass down generations and be remembered long after they're gone - it's amazing.
----
To add on to those who are trying to suggest that "race" isn't important, and we should remove all colours and be viewed as one etc.
You need to question the history oppression not just in America but globally, where the oppressors remove & erase all traces of identity, history, family etc so they can control & rule over those they oppress without any disobedience.
In some cases - race & culture are the only things that can connect people, especially black people between Africa the Caribbean & The Americas.
So the idea that we need to ignore race, or people shouldn't be proud of their race is not just idealistic & dangerous, but it's reductionist and quite honestly only illustrates that there's a disconnect.
You wouldn't tell the Italians, the French and the Spanish to erase their culture because they are all European white, and therefore they are the same because we are all part of the human race, and being proud of your culture is separatism.
No, we celebrate our differences, and learn about other cultures that aren't familiar to ours, and that is what it means to be part of the human race. At least in my opinion.
With that being said, i'm going to sleep, I don't care if you don't agree with me tbh.
Who do you feel most connection to out of curiosity?
@saivet @rcoobc @SteveJ
You are all appreciated!
@2 Man Midfield
That's literally it, there's a cultural division that will take generations to heal. We can't expect it to happen overnight, and we shouldn't dismiss those who just want to have something to celebrate or be included in - especially if they're the first person to go to college? Or they come from a line of slaves?
They are creating history for their family that they will pass down generations and be remembered long after they're gone - it's amazing.
----
To add on to those who are trying to suggest that "race" isn't important, and we should remove all colours and be viewed as one etc.
You need to question the history oppression not just in America but globally, where the oppressors remove & erase all traces of identity, history, family etc so they can control & rule over those they oppress without any disobedience.
In some cases - race & culture are the only things that can connect people, especially black people between Africa the Caribbean & The Americas.
So the idea that we need to ignore race, or people shouldn't be proud of their race is not just idealistic & dangerous, but it's reductionist and quite honestly only illustrates that there's a disconnect.
You wouldn't tell the Italians, the French and the Spanish to erase their culture because they are all European white, and therefore they are the same because we are all part of the human race, and being proud of your culture is separatism.
No, we celebrate our differences, and learn about other cultures that aren't familiar to ours, and that is what it means to be part of the human race. At least in my opinion.
With that being said, i'm going to sleep, I don't care if you don't agree with me tbh.
Maybe @vi1lain can relate to this.
I was the only black person in my major classes. I did my work, collaborated with classmates and shit. Mafe a few friends. I always felt like an outsider, wasn't interested in the cliques that formed.
The highlight of my weeks would be meeting up with other African-Americans, Africans and Caribbeans on campus... and it's just a different vibe when you're with people who you can talk slang with, listen to similar music, and speak on issues that impacted us. It's like being in a foreign city and joining a community of other expats. The difference is... Blacks have been treated as worse than expats in America for centuries. Forming these communities are a pressure valve, a way to let steam off and celebrate the things that define us for good. A black graduation is the culmination of good things that were denied that demographic for years, so people coming along and calling that discriminatory or segregation... Bit tone deaf . And that's me being kind.
I was the only black person in my major classes. I did my work, collaborated with classmates and shit. Mafe a few friends. I always felt like an outsider, wasn't interested in the cliques that formed.
The highlight of my weeks would be meeting up with other African-Americans, Africans and Caribbeans on campus... and it's just a different vibe when you're with people who you can talk slang with, listen to similar music, and speak on issues that impacted us. It's like being in a foreign city and joining a community of other expats. The difference is... Blacks have been treated as worse than expats in America for centuries. Forming these communities are a pressure valve, a way to let steam off and celebrate the things that define us for good. A black graduation is the culmination of good things that were denied that demographic for years, so people coming along and calling that discriminatory or segregation... Bit tone deaf . And that's me being kind.
I guess it's totally understandable, in white people not really getting what it is to be black in a world like this.
For so long, even today there are black sterotypes and institutional forces against black people. Try to promote black excellency in the face of this and you get many white people telling us we should do it this or that way.
Sort of like the people who got upset at Black Lives Matter then started the All Lives Matter rhetoric in response. It's not something that can be explained simply, but it's just simply a case that many don't and/or won't understand black issues.
Like @vi1lain said, this sort of shit is tiring to read and even talk about, so I'll just leave it at this.
For so long, even today there are black sterotypes and institutional forces against black people. Try to promote black excellency in the face of this and you get many white people telling us we should do it this or that way.
Sort of like the people who got upset at Black Lives Matter then started the All Lives Matter rhetoric in response. It's not something that can be explained simply, but it's just simply a case that many don't and/or won't understand black issues.
Like @vi1lain said, this sort of shit is tiring to read and even talk about, so I'll just leave it at this.
All lives matter were never really taken that seriously though were they? Whenever I saw any enthusiasm for it there was usually someone along pretty quickly to put them straight. The easiest way I could describe it to people was that it's not just 'black lives matter', a better term might be 'black lives matter too.'
Pretty much the same experience I had at university level, up until that point I was the only black person in my class throughout my entire formal education.
I personally didn't realise how exhausting it is to be black in a white space, until I had the experience of being with other black people at university for 3 years, then having to go back to being by myself again in the workplace.
The best way I can describe it is having constant anxiety, and just feeling alone at the same time. Sure, there are periods where its not as bad, but you don't ever really feel as comfortable, but thats my experience.
We had separate graduation parties dependent on race in my high school, but I don't know if they were officially endorsed by the school or not. The two that I remember are black graduation and Asian graduation, but I think there were at least couple more. I didn't bother attending those but I knew a few people who did and they said it's mostly an excuse to have fun, grab some food and drinks, and socialize rather than anything serious.
It really is a difficult conversation to have and so many times I type out posts on this and then delete them because it's hard to have the discussion without unintentionally causing offence or by not explaining something the way you wanted to and it be takn the way you didn't want it to come across. It's all too easy to take offence too because it's a very charged subject with a lot of emotion attached on both sides which should really be checked at the door when discussing logic and principle such as equaity where emotional bias should be recognised for the irrational influencer that it is and as a result should be ignored - though it's obviously incredibly hard to do that especially if you've been oppressed. I'm sure that the people who came in here saying it's discriminatory were not doing it because they were white people telling black people what to do as @SteveJ mentioned earlier. I know that there are more ethnicities in this thread than black and white. It's more likely a response to the article that makes multiple mentions of 'all black' 'exlusive black' and 'black only' which paints a very different picture that other races are prohibited. If all races were welcome, it would not be referred to as 'exclusively black' or 'black only' and so on one hand I can understand why it maybe pisses you off to see people call it discrimination or use words perhaps insensitively and/or out of context, but on the other it is to a degree understandable why some people would take it as it has been written.
I just can't fathom this way of thinking. The singular opposing suggestion to you is for no one to be excluded. That's it.Oh my god like 6 of you quoted me at once, Jesus Christ.
Look - I stand by what I said, you don't have to agree with me.
Being black in a predominantly white space is exhausting.
Hell, being in this thread is exhausting.
Sometimes you need an environment you feel comfortable in, I don't blame these students for wanting that.
Maybe you should question why they don't feel entirely comfortable in the institution first.
Anything that promotes a specific skin colour is only taking us further away from true equality. It only stokes the fire of those already treating you differently and alienating those who don't.
And then anyone who has this opinion is labelled an ignorant white person.
So ridiculous. It's ok to have a blacks only ceremony, but if I arrange a ceremony for Klansmen only then suddenly I'm a racist.
As tempting as it might be to riff on Rhyme Animal's legendary thread, I'm not black or a student.
You're a Polish Girl?As tempting as it might be to riff on Rhyme Animal's legendary thread, I'm not black or a student.
Indeed. Likely many of the same people who get unduly worked up by stories of private members men's clubs being forced to include women. It's odd how the evils of political correctness can be at fault for both unfair inclusivity and unfair exclusivity. Almost as if it depends entirely on how it affects angry white men.
I agree that the optics of this aren't particularly great, but there's obviously no equitable comparison with Jim Crow era segregation. The whole point of the Civil Rights movement (and equal rights in general) wasn't to force everyone to do everything together all the time. It was about having the right to choose for themselves, rather than have it decided for them. Black people weren't excluded from white schools because us whiteys were having a harmless private celebration of our culture. They were excluded because we didn't like them, and didn't want them having nice things. This isn't remotely similar, and I'm sure that if a white guy made enough of a fuss about attending, they'd probably let him. Because the intent is benign, not malicious. But then there's no reason for a white guy to want to attend this, outside of some pathetic mock outrage about not being able to.
And I'm sure those same people would argue that words like half-caste, coloured, mulatto, Paki etc are fine as long as there's no ill intent behind it. Yet paradoxically insist on seeing this entirely through a contextless lense, where the intent is irrelevant.
Tangentially, I'm also becoming increasingly tired of how student activity is being used as an example of this generation's unique sensitivity, or intolerance, as if contrary, outspoken student activism is something brand new and shocking, and not something that's been widely accepted, expected and mocked for over half a century, and embodied most notoriously by the very Boomer generation now bemoaning it.
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99% of posters are genuine about it, mate, but some use it to derail on occasion, and on other contentious Caf topics too.
Well done being a fecking idiot.
Tak.
I agree with you there, but through intelligent rational discussion you can just filter them out. They get found out quickly.
I've been seeing his posts for a while, I think there's a /s at the end of most of them.
It's so very hard to have a fully happy and integrated and fair society, I hope kindness and good people with common sense and decency win out.
We could bring up scientific/biological and psychological reasons (and history) for races having differences or divides etc but that would be common sense..
There has to be a balance in society or one side or another gets fearful and hackles are raised. It's basic psychology surely to not have an imbalance in society, whatever it is.
I'm baffled by humans hating other humans anyway. Fecking madness.
Except for scousers...
We could bring up scientific/biological and psychological reasons (and history) for races having differences or divides etc but that would be common sense..
There has to be a balance in society or one side or another gets fearful and hackles are raised. It's basic psychology surely to not have an imbalance in society, whatever it is.
I'm baffled by humans hating other humans anyway. Fecking madness.
Except for scousers...
Stupid idiots like that make my argument look ignorant. Don't liken me even close to that vile bullshit.
Is this how every black person in a white space feel? Eye opener for me in that case. For the best part of three years, I'm Indian (like in Asian Indian) and was a part of an analytics team entirely made up of Chinese folks settled in US as US citizens and I never felt anxious or alone.
Great thread timing. Apparently this is a common thing:
Great thread timing. Apparently this is a common thing:
Why does the first blackout look like its got a hard on.
Balls and everything
Understatement of the year?
By loving that you insult the very nature of the people that don't want that to be the case.
Bolding what you want from that is not only racist. Is immoral. You have literally put him into a position (unless he wants to be) he didn't intend.
I have no issue with the event as described (anyone can attend, crowdfunded etc), but I don't know exactly where I stand on ethnicity-based clubs and events in general. I used to attend an Asian only club in college and I always found the ethnic qualifier a little uncomfortable. The club did have a policy of allowing in anyone who self-identified as 'Asian', regardless of their actual origins, but in practice I never saw anyone 'non-Asian' join.
I'm not going to go that far and say every black person feels that way in the workplace, no. Depends on the workplace too, right?
But, it is a common refrain among friends and colleagues that are black, that in the corporate world, there is a nearly overwhelming feeling of being alone. Because work is no longer just work. You have to associate with your coworkers and boss, and make small talk, and go out for drinks, and you have to adapt in ways that other people can't, in order to fit in, and make everyone else feel comfortable. That shit is psychologically burdening.
It doesn't need to be a charged subject at all. I understand someone asking, "hey, why do some black people feel the need to have a African themed graduation?" Perfectly valid question.
I wish I could find a good video of such a themed graduation. You have the graduation robes, but with some people wearing Kente themed sashes. You have speeches from various people thanking a close knit community for being a home away from home. You have a speaker urging graduates to remember to give back to their underserved communities, and maybe mentor a kid, or volunteer at an urban school. You have everyone singing "Lift Every Voice and Sing". Swag Surfing. Styling down the aisle. Complete with all the little things that make black culture awesome... Stuffed into a graduation ceremony. And that is all done against the backdrop of a terrible reality that is modern race relations in America, where until recently, there were more black men in prison than in college. Where, depending on where you grew up, just making it to college, instead of ending up dead from guns or drugs was a miracle. Where a degree won't protect you from police brutality. It's a celebration, but also a somber realization of the distance left in front of us.
I wish people took time to understand the context of these events, instead of writing them off as "oh that's discriminatory".
While racism is still alive and present, the african american seems to be creating a higher walls of segregation. It should be about equality where white and black and asian Latino etc be in the same room and treated equally.
This one has deviate so much from the ideology of equality imho.
This one has deviate so much from the ideology of equality imho.
Oh my god like 6 of you quoted me at once, Jesus Christ.
Look - I stand by what I said, you don't have to agree with me.
Being black in a predominantly white space is exhausting.
Hell, being in this thread is exhausting.
Sometimes you need an environment you feel comfortable in, I don't blame these students for wanting that.
Maybe you should question why they don't feel entirely comfortable in the institution first.
How is redcafe a white space? It's a football forum where we all have one thing in common which is we support United. One of the great things about an "anonymous" forum like this is who you are does not matter, only your ideas/comments does.Also, what makes a white space so exhausting? I am not trying to rile you up here, i just want to understand. We have discussed before and you seem like a reasonable and intelligent person, so if you could enlighten me on this, please.
Lastly, i don't have any issue with the black students having their own ceremony, it's rather the signal it sends. It's not about excluding white people, it's about them excluding themselves. "Space" or not, i firmly believe that dividing people based on racial categories is a step in the wrong direction, no matter how innocent it may seem.
PC gone mad!
As tempting as it might be to riff on Rhyme Animal's legendary thread, I'm not black or a student.
It's like I don't know you at all Steve...
It's fecking regrettable and I say that as a black man.
Have the same experience in uni right now, luckily I'm not in campus so as soon as it is 17:15, I can take the subway home. And luckily my university is very multiracial in general.
As long as the university itself is not organising this, it is absolutely fine. Optics are not great but the sensational headlines make it seem like the university is enforcing this.
On a similar note, I watched "Dear White People" show on netflix about black students in any ivy league college in US. Really good show.
On a similar note, I watched "Dear White People" show on netflix about black students in any ivy league college in US. Really good show.
I'm sorry I tried a joke. Sure that fruit was so low hanging it may as well have been windfall but I hadn't read the thread, was aiming at no one in particular and was not mocking anyones reaction in this thread to the story. Besides I'd like to think that I've enough about me to not automatically characterise objections to such a story as definitely racist - ill informed? perhaps. I hope you understand my position and accept my apology.
I'm sincere up to 49% of the time (idiot 100%)...
...curiouser and curiouser.