Harry Maguire involved in incident with police in Greece - conviction nullified by appeal, full retrial pending

[sammsky1]

I mean, this ending doesn't support that idea that the rule of law is being strictly followed here. The Greek justice system handed down a 21 month jail sentence (suspended) but if Harry says sorry it all goes away?

Everyone who ever travels to Greece in the future needs to remember this. It's like a key to the country!

It says accept wrong doing AND apologise.

I accept your assertions that Greece does have serious legal compliance issues; your links undoubtedly proved that. But that doesn’t mean there was any corruption or lack of due process in Maguires case, as the BBC report articulates.

Mistaken or otherwise, there doesn’t seem any doubt that Maguire physically struck the Greek officers. We all know that is a point of no return against any policeman in any country; in USA it will likely get you shot in retaliatory self defence from a cop.

Latin and Asian cultures value ‘face’ a great deal, it’s a cultural phenomenon western European’s don’t properly understand. In such cultures a genuine and contrite apology goes a long way.

I have no doubt the Greek officers feel affronted and insulted (am sure Maguire mouthed off a few choice words at them). Likewise I doubt they want the hassle of this going through the courts. A public apology (without conceding guilt) would go along way to helping this fade away and I hope Maguire is being counselled in this way.

Let’s put it another way, if Maguire is now on a crusade to embarrass the Greek authorities, I’ll bet you an entire tenderloin that he is found guilty at appeal, no matter what counter evidence he provides.

 

[sammsky1]

With the arrest, the decision to fast track the trial, and all the public statements, it was obvious they are doing this for PR and/or face, and all they want is respect. Quite bizarre to use the justice system to do it though.

Read the BBC article. Trial was not fast tracked.

 

[mu4c_20le]

Read the BBC article. Trial was not fast tracked.

They denied to postponing the trial.

 

[Drainy]

Let’s put it another way, if Maguire is now on a crusade to embarrass the Greek authorities, I’ll bet you an entire tenderloin that he is found guilty at appeal, no matter what counter evidence he provides.

What a great system and culture that we should value and respect just as much a a facts based one.

 

[sammsky1]

They denied to postponing the trial.

So what? It was within the judges discretion. Please do some proper reading around the subject and get your facts straight instead of triggering to any concept you dislike.

 

[sammsky1]

What a great system and culture that we should value and respect just as much a a facts based one.

If you don’t like Greece don’t go there. Britain does not own Greece. What part of this is so hard for you to comprehend?

 

[mu4c_20le]

So what? It was within the judges discretion. Please do some proper reading around the subject and get your facts straight instead of triggering to any concept you dislike.

They forced the trial to go through and then threw the fecking book at him. And afterwards, offer to drop the charges if he apologizes? That sound right to you?

 

[Drainy]

If you don’t like Greece don’t go there. Britain does not own Greece. What part of this is so hard for you to comprehend?

I intend not to. I am pointing out that the system you are defending is fecked up.

If you can be found guilty of a crime because you have not attempted to 'save face' even when the you are not guilty that is an OBJECTIVELY piss poor justice system and doesn't deserve respect

 

[sammsky1]

They forced the trial to go through and then threw the fecking book at him. And afterwards, offer to drop the charges if he apologizes? That sound right to you?

It’s their country and they can do what they want.

 

[Drainy]

It’s their country and they can do what they want.

This is how Nazi Germany started.

 

[sammsky1]

I intend not to. I am pointing out that the system you are defending is fecked up.

If you can be found guilty of a crime because you have not attempted to 'save face' even when the you are not guilty that is an OBJECTIVELY piss poor justice system.

I’m sure they couldn’t give a flying fcuk that you wont go and are probably glad.

you obviously don’t have the holistic mind to think about this objectively. So not worth me continuing with you.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

If he says sorry then their crown prosecution drops the charges. Nothing to do with the juridical system, but does say something about theIr police force.

To be fair, the police are an integral part of any criminal justice system. But I agree that it's interesting that all they really want is an apology.

 

[Drainy]

I’m sure they couldn’t give a flying fcuk that you wont go and are probably glad.

you obviously don’t have the holistic mind to think about this objectively. So not worth me continuing with you.

Aren't you like the top poster in the George Floyd thread? Why would America give a feck what you think?

Guess what you can express your opinion if something is fecked up. A human being receiving a conviction and a punishment for a crime that was not proven beyond a reasonable doubt at a fair trial is not right.

You've reminded me of the expression 'have an open mind but not so open your brain falls out'

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

It says accept wrong doing AND apologise.

I accept your assertions that Greece does have serious legal compliance issues; your links proved undoubtedly proved that. But that doesn’t mean there was any corruption or lack of due process in Maguires case, as the BBC report articulates.

Mistaken or otherwise, there doesn’t seem any doubt that Maguire physically struck the Greek officers. We all know that is a point of no return against any policeman in any country; in USA it will likely get you shot in retaliatory self defence from a cop.

Latin and Asian cultures value ‘face’ a great deal, it’s a cultural phenomenon western European’s don’t properly understand. In such cultures a genuine and contrite apology goes a long way.

I have no doubt the Greek officers feel affronted and insulted (am sure Maguire mouthed off a few choice words at them). Likewise I doubt they don’t want the hassle of this going through the courts. A public apology (without conceding guilt) would go along way to helping this fade away and I hope Maguire is being counselled in this way.

Let’s put it another way, if Maguire is now on a crusade to embarrass the Greek authorities, I’ll bet you an entire tenderloin that he is found guilty at appeal, no matter what counter evidence he provides.

I want to be clear that the points I raised were strictly in reference to likelihood. My opinion is that there was a higher likelihood of something not being quite right on the part of the authorities versus on Maguire's part. As such, my benefit of the doubt leans to Harry.

I think right now Maguire is of the opinion that, under the circumstances, his actions were justifiable. If neither the police or his hired driver told him that the cops have redirected them to the police station for questioning, etc, then they may have certainly been fearful when eight men tried to haul them out of the vehicle. If you don't know they are cops and that you are being arrested, most anyone would have a bad reaction to that. This is maybe a bit speculative but seems to align to the facts as we know them.

Generally, in a legal sense, offering an apology implies you were at fault. It might not be in his best interest right now to consider that without concrete assurances that the matter will be officially dropped.

I'm sure emotions are high right now and maybe we'll see everyone's stance soften as time goes by.

 

[sammsky1]

Aren't you like the top poster in the George Floyd thread? Why would America give a feck what you think?

Guess what you can express your opinion if something is fecked up. A human being receiving a conviction and a punishment for a crime that was not proven beyond a reasonable doubt at a fair trial is not right.

You've reminded me of the expression 'have an open mind but not so open your brain falls out'

I have no idea about if i'm a 'top poster', but I didn't post in that thread to influence America .

Likewise I haven't asked you to stop expressing your opinion, just that I'm wasting my time with you, as you refuse to see the world beyond your own prism and beliefs. Please crack on with your faux outrage.

 

[He'sRaldo]

If you can be found guilty of a crime because you have not attempted to 'save face' even when the you are not guilty that is an OBJECTIVELY piss poor justice system and doesn't deserve respect

This happens everywhere. "I'll drop charges if you x and y..." Why do you think it's only a Greek thing?

And also, Maguire hasn't been found not guilty.

 

[Drainy]

This happens everywhere. "I'll drop charges if you x and y..." Why do you think it's only a Greek thing?

And also, Maguire hasn't been found not guilty.

Yeah the American system is built on plea deals which can be unjust as an example

I didn't say it was only Greece. The other poster stated that their system is based on saving face rather than guilt.. Objectively that logic is worse than an evidence based system.

 

[sammsky1]

I want to be clear that the points I raised were strictly in reference to likelihood. My opinion is that there was a higher likelihood of something not being quite right on the part of the authorities versus on Maguire's part. As such, my benefit of the doubt leans to Harry.
I think right now Maguire is of the opinion that, under the circumstances, his actions were justifiable. If neither the police or his hired driver told him that the cops have redirected them to the police station for questioning, etc, then they may have certainly been fearful when eight men tried to haul them out of the vehicle. If you don't know they are cops and that you are being arrested, most anyone would have a bad reaction to that. This is maybe a bit speculative but seems to align to the facts as we know them.
Generally, in a legal sense, offering an apology implies you were at fault. It might not be in his best interest right now to consider that without concrete assurances that the matter will be officially dropped.
I'm sure emotions are high right now and maybe we'll see everyone's stance soften as time goes by.

Yeah, it seems this sequence of events is the key incident. And what you wrote seems highly plausible, it was a series of poor communication, irrational panic and mistaken identity that led to the violent altercation.

In 'face' cultures these situations are resolved by 'the lesser powerful' party apologising first (saving face for the more powerful party), and then the powerful party would gracefully accept the apology and offer a smaller apology in return. Hands are then shaken, all share a drink or cup of tea and it's all genuinely forgotten about. I've seen this happen so many times in Asia. I think this is what the Greek prosecutor was referring to as a method of de-escalation and because I understand the concept, it doesn't sound odd or silly to me. But this has not been understood by Maguire or many other posters in this thread.

 

[Yorkeontop]

Yet he's rated as the second best defender in the league.

Wouldn't argue that. There's just this aura about VVD, he's head and shoulders above Harry. The transfer fee has not been justified.

 

[Illyriann]

Some of comments here about Greece here are disgusting.

 

[Salt Bailly]

"Ahead of the verdict, the footballer's lawyer, Andreas Anagnostakis, said his client's conduct was justified because the policemen had allegedly attacked him in his "golden leg" and told him "your career is over"."

Finally, an explanation for the massive transfer fee.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

When this ordeal is over the Caf will become greek legal laymen experts

100%

We will have the barrack room lawyers trawling through documents and transcripts. It’s going to be good watching this unfold.

 

[Drainy]

Yeah, it seems this sequence of events is the key incident. And what you wrote seems highly plausible, it was a series of poor communication, irrational panic and mistaken identity that led to the violent altercation.

In 'face' cultures these situations are resolved by 'the lesser powerful' party apologising first (saving face for the more powerful party), and then the powerful party would gracefully accept the apology and offer a smaller apology in return. Hands are then shaken, all share a drink or cup of tea and it's all genuinely forgotten about. I've seen this happen so many times in Asia. I think this is what the Greek prosecutor was referring to as a method of de-escalation and because I understand the concept, it docent sound odd or silly to me. But this has not been understood by Maguire or many other posters in this thread.

Funnily enough that sequence of events is exactly what I predicted it would turn out to be fairly early yesterday.

There is a big difference between 'getting' and accepting as fair. Hence the 'xenophobia' in saying the system is flawed and unfair..

 

[Isotope]

"Ahead of the verdict, the footballer's lawyer, Andreas Anagnostakis, said his client's conduct was justified because the policemen had allegedly attacked him in his "golden leg" and told him "your career is over"."

Finally, an explanation for the massive transfer fee.

feck me. Could be Liverpool fan.

 

[Isotope]

I want to be clear that the points I raised were strictly in reference to likelihood. My opinion is that there was a higher likelihood of something not being quite right on the part of the authorities versus on Maguire's part. As such, my benefit of the doubt leans to Harry.

I think right now Maguire is of the opinion that, under the circumstances, his actions were justifiable. If neither the police or his hired driver told him that the cops have redirected them to the police station for questioning, etc, then they may have certainly been fearful when eight men tried to haul them out of the vehicle. If you don't know they are cops and that you are being arrested, most anyone would have a bad reaction to that. This is maybe a bit speculative but seems to align to the facts as we know them.

Generally, in a legal sense, offering an apology implies you were at fault. It might not be in his best interest right now to consider that without concrete assurances that the matter will be officially dropped.

I'm sure emotions are high right now and maybe we'll see everyone's stance soften as time goes by.

Agreed. Unless there's an off-the record conversation with the Judge and Police dept., there's no way you should admit mistake. That's a very stupid thing to do.

 

[Revan]

It says accept wrong doing AND apologise.

I accept your assertions that Greece does have serious legal compliance issues; your links undoubtedly proved that. But that doesn’t mean there was any corruption or lack of due process in Maguires case, as the BBC report articulates.

Mistaken or otherwise, there doesn’t seem any doubt that Maguire physically struck the Greek officers. We all know that is a point of no return against any policeman in any country; in USA it will likely get you shot in retaliatory self defence from a cop.

Latin and Asian cultures value ‘face’ a great deal, it’s a cultural phenomenon western European’s don’t properly understand. In such cultures a genuine and contrite apology goes a long way.

I have no doubt the Greek officers feel affronted and insulted (am sure Maguire mouthed off a few choice words at them). Likewise I doubt they want the hassle of this going through the courts. A public apology (without conceding guilt) would go along way to helping this fade away and I hope Maguire is being counselled in this way.

Let’s put it another way, if Maguire is now on a crusade to embarrass the Greek authorities, I’ll bet you an entire tenderloin that he is found guilty at appeal, no matter what counter evidence he provides.

Good post. If he hit the officer, he is gonna make things worse. And he should count his lucky stars that it happened in Greece, in many other countries he would have been severely beaten and in US probably killed. Hitting a police officer is a big deal pretty much everywhere.

 

[Bullhitter]

If it was just for an investigation of 2-4 weeks then yeah maybe.
But if the threats of an appeal taking 1-2 years are close to true then he can't step down for such a long period.

He is convicted yes, but as long as he is appealing it's not a valid sentencing yet. If he was given jailtime he would not start serving his time until the appeal was sorted.
Sure, if a serious enough crime that he would be held in custody that time would later be seen as time served should he ultimately be found guilty, but not actually started serving his prison sentence until appeals are finished.

My point is that as long as an appeal process is ongoing he shouldn't be punished by the club in any way.

You're right especially now it has become more clear how the system works in Greece, seems more like the "trial" the other day is more just a formalising of charges and an opportunity to save time if charges are accepted with a guilty plea but for someone pleading their innocence the situation is more akin to presenting in court to be read your charges and enter your plea then await a trial date.

 

[Gasolin]

Yeah, it seems this sequence of events is the key incident. And what you wrote seems highly plausible, it was a series of poor communication, irrational panic and mistaken identity that led to the violent altercation.

In 'face' cultures these situations are resolved by 'the lesser powerful' party apologising first (saving face for the more powerful party), and then the powerful party would gracefully accept the apology and offer a smaller apology in return. Hands are then shaken, all share a drink or cup of tea and it's all genuinely forgotten about. I've seen this happen so many times in Asia. I think this is what the Greek prosecutor was referring to as a method of de-escalation and because I understand the concept, it doesn't sound odd or silly to me. But this has not been understood by Maguire or many other posters in this thread.

And yet, as an Asian myself, married to another Asian woman, I find that concept completely wrong regarding Asia. First of all, Asia is huge. In the developed countries in Asia, if you did not do anything wrong, nobody will apologize anymore. If anything, they are on a crusade to make sure that any wrong doing is now properly punished. That's how they are able to send their president into jail, etc... even though they still fight all type of connivance and all. Their investigative techniques are one of the most advanced in the world, involving logic, scientific help, 3d simulation... You should learn about the world you describe better. What you described was Asia 30 years ago maybe, at best! Nobody will offer an apology if they haven't done anything wrong just because they are the "lesser powerful" party. It's precisely what Asia now really hates!

What the Greeks are proposing is simply a retrograde concept of the world, and it should be fixed. For a country considered the birthplace of the Western civilization, it's disgraceful!

Now I hope the facts are accepted and that Maguire does have serious evidence for his appeal. His sister should start being involved and prove the injection of the substance.

 

[sammsky1]

And yet, as an Asian myself, married to another Asian woman, I find that concept completely wrong regarding Asia. First of all, Asia is huge. In the developed countries in Asia, if you did not do anything wrong, nobody will apologize anymore. If anything, they are on a crusade to make sure that any wrong doing is now properly punished. That's how they are able to send their president into jail, etc... even though they still fight all type of connivance and all. Their investigative techniques are one of the most advanced in the world, involving logic, scientific help, 3d simulation... You should learn about the world you describe better. What you described was Asia 30 years ago maybe, at best! Nobody will offer an apology if they haven't done anything wrong just because they are the "lesser powerful" party. It's precisely what Asia now really hates!

What the Greeks are proposing is simply a retrograde concept of the world, and it should be fixed. For a country considered the birthplace of the Western civilization, it's disgraceful!

Now I hope the facts are accepted and that Maguire does have serious evidence for his appeal. His sister should start being involved and prove the injection of the substance.

So you admit Asia is huge yet presume to talk on its entire behalf? As for what I know about Asia, i’ll take my chances.

Again total lack of empathy and utter narcissism: You may be a modernist, good for you. Doesn’t mean 100s of years of culture has been removed because the Tiktok generation arrived.

 

[Stretender]

Greece is a corrupt poor country. I don't believe any word those dodgy policemen said. This Maguire case has proven to me that the British were right to vote for Brexit. Some of these European countries are so third world it's a joke. Let them enjoy their substandard Justice systems. Bloody joke!!

 

[Volumiza]

Greece is a corrupt poor country. I don't believe any word those dodgy policemen said. This Maguire case has proven to me that the British were right to vote for Brexit. Some of these European countries are so third world it's a joke. Let them enjoy their substandard Justice systems. Bloody joke!!

 

[Isotope]

Good post. If he hit the officer, he is gonna make things worse. And he should count his lucky stars that it happened in Greece, in many other countries he would have been severely beaten and in US probably killed. Hitting a police officer is a big deal pretty much everywhere.

Weren't the police undercovers?

 

[Gasolin]

So you admit Asia is huge yet presume to talk on its entire behalf? As for what I know about Asia, i’ll take my chances.

Again total lack of empathy and utter narcissism: You may be a modernist, good for you. Doesn’t mean 100s of years of culture has been removed because the Tiktok generation arrived.

I am pretty certain I mentioned that in the developed countries of Asia, and there a few, what you describe is not the case and has not been for a while now. Nothing to do with TikTok but more to do with social justice and fixing wrong and unfair situations. Especially one where you have to apologize just because you're younger or weak, even if you did nothing wrong. And the societies are embracing it. It doesn't mean the culture disappears, only that the culture continues to develop in a positive way.

 

[reelworld]

Mistaken or otherwise, there doesn’t seem any doubt that Maguire physically struck the Greek officers. We all know that is a point of no return against any policeman in any country; in USA it will likely get you shot in retaliatory self defence from a cop.

Mistake or otherwise is important. If a plain clothes officer failed to identify him/herself as police officer, and shot a suspect dead, they should face a murder charge.

Don't think you care much about context here.

 

[Sky1981]

To be fair, the police are an integral part of any criminal justice system. But I agree that it's interesting that all they really want is an apology.

It's not actually an apology. But even in the US and many parts of the world there's something that called remorse. If the perp shows remorse and regrets they can plead for reduce sentences. Our clients regrets their action, because he was under duress, the situation is like this and that and it's all a big misunderstanding.

Something along that would goes along way and it's sensible imho because say what you want they turned out to be actual cops. Most people would just say oh shit... my bad officer.

But if you're in the wrong and you kept on shouting injustices and having to continue fighting your way then you'd rightly left them with no choice.

 

[DevilRed]

Time to change the thread title. INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

So you admit Asia is huge yet presume to talk on its entire behalf? As for what I know about Asia, i’ll take my chances.

Again total lack of empathy and utter narcissism: You may be a modernist, good for you. Doesn’t mean 100s of years of culture has been removed because the Tiktok generation arrived.

As an Asian myself I can tell you quite confidently that the concept of bending over backwards to the police is entirely alien to my own country, and it has nothing to do with the Tik tok generation.

 

[utdalltheway]

feck me. Could be Liverpool fan.

Probably is. My next door neighbour is Greek and he’s a Liverpool fan so it stands to reason that they all are. Feckin Greeks!

 

[Isotope]

Probably is. My next door neighbour is Greek and he’s a Liverpool fan so it stands to reason that they all are. Feckin Greeks!

Agreed. They should go back doing what they used to. Inventing cool stuff and gods.

 

[Tincanalley]

@RonaldoVII you need to update thread title - retrial now means that Maguire is assumed to be innocent until a court of law proves otherwise @Damien