He was by far and away out most consistent though?
5
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 52
- Clean sheets
- 21
- Goals
- 3
- Assists
- 1
- Yellow cards
- 15
- Status
AWB is very very good. But was it Maguire who got constantly caught out of position against Brighton, and to suggest he gets more criticism than Maguire is laughable
To be fair everyone is considered fecking shite here unless we're on a winning run. Players are only good for about a year after joining, then only after performing great in a convincing win. Other than that De Gea is shite now and Henderson will be shite if he takes over, Shaw is fat and shite, Maguire and Lindelof are shite, Wan Bissaka is shite, Pogba is shite, Matic is old and shite, Bruno is shite if he doesn't score or assisst, Rashford is shite, Martial is shite and will never be a real 9 and Mason will probably be considered shite soon enough. Ole is also shite for not being in the title race with all these apparently shite players.
This is some bullshit that's repeated in the last couple of months in order to convince ourselves that we're going in the right direction but it's not true. It's an argument that's solely based on stats (mostly on GA) but when you actually watch our defence you see it's definitely not better than our past defences in the last 6 years bar that 18-19 season. The amount of soft goals, the goals we conceded due to our CBs ball watching, passive defending etc. in games like bournemouth away, newcastle away, semi-finals against Chelsea/Sevilla etc. last year, the goals that palace and brighton scored so far this year tells you that our defence didn't improve at all. It's actually worse and only our right hand side improved as AWB is pretty good defensively as a RB. That may be the improvement we can talk about our defence as we didn't have a proper RB that can defend for a long time. But CBs are still an issue as Lindelöf is a car crash of a defender that's bullied by anyone and Maguire is a player with glaring weaknesses.
Our defence was always going to improve after an anomaly season where the manager was in a sabotaging mode. We already had the top 2 lowest conceding defences constantly between 2014-2018 in the league if you want to use that metric. And you can use stats all you want but reality is our CBs are not good enough and we'll pay for that when it matters like we did against Chelsea and Sevilla last year.
Not only the last couple of months, but since the start of the calendar year. Every now and then people take out these stats to prove we're great in defending; whenever we concede soft goals they say we need to buy better defenders.
Worse thing is that United's social media keep brainwashing the fans with this kind of videos. In this clip he just wins one header and strings a few simple passes and they call it "a captain's performance". It's just so toxic.
The pass at 12 seconds though
His ball playing ability is being underrated in here. He tends to invite opposition players to put himself under pressure in order to leave the midfield free from the attackers marking them. Our midfield just often bad when positioning themselves to find spaces or moving around off the ball.
Maguire can dribble, protect ball under pressure well. No doubt. However, there is more to ball playing CB than just dribbling, short pass, and medium passing.
Copy from VVD thread to make a point.
Dier key long pass to Reguilon for his assist in yesterday League Cup game between Tottenham and Chelsea.
Maguire long passing to how VVD is like comparing Matic to Carrick. Maguire is not unable, but he wouldn't do so with consistent ease. Blaming the midfielders is just lazy, and just racing to the bottom. Clearly you should expect more for the money spent on Maguire, and the midfielders, full backs. All of them are questionable.
You are questioning Maguire's long passing just because he's not as good as Van Dijk. Van Dijk is a world class centre back, there are only 2 right now that I can consider ''world class centre back'', Ramos & Van Dijk with another two that have potential to be world class, De Ligt & Upamecano. Maguire long passing is still good & comparable compare to any other centre back in PL including Laporte.
I know I’m not supposed to mention the price tag when discussing Maguire but why did we spend 80m on a defender who is not world class?
I wouldn’t be too bothered about his passing if he didn’t turn to jelly whenever anyone ran fast towards him. First and foremost, he’s a terrible defender. Oh and his passing is bang average too.
If you read my whole post, you would know I am talking about our plan as a whole. In the context of our current squad, Maguire lack of outstanding passing ability, he is part of the team issue. Just because he can dribble under pressure, doesn't mean he can sidestep the issue that for the money we spend on him, we should have spent toward the potential world class passing CB instead. It's been reoccurring theme for other purchases. Bought players that clearly has quality but hardly complement others to build a fluid team. Praising one player then to slate a few other is just a never ending cycle.You are questioning Maguire's long passing just because he's not as good as Van Dijk. Van Dijk is a world class centre back, there are only 2 right now that I can consider ''world class centre back'', Ramos & Van Dijk with another two that have potential to be world class, De Ligt & Upamecano. Maguire long passing is still good & comparable compare to any other centre back in PL including Laporte.
And long pass stats doesn't tell the whole story. Straight long percentage pass to the channel, even hoofing would count the same in stats. Laporte plays consistent crispy accurate switch play pass too, while Maguire switch play pass is not as consistent and as good. That clip about VVD just to make a point about how quality passing with ease from CB position can open play simply, without the need of midfielders.
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Because the market for centre back last year was limited. Bayern paid 70m on Lucas Hernandez.
Name that player.
Read the post I quoted
Just write down the name you think is world class.
Take from that post De Ligt
Look at the pass types in that video. There are only two, a long pass to a sprinting Salah, or diagonal to Trent as he runs in behind the fullback. Both are clearly well drilled, as soon as VVD gets the ball he knows exactly what's going to happen and what he's got to do next without even looking. Without that the pass never happens. Maguire has the ability but when was the last time you saw any of our players consistently making those runs?
VVD wasn't world class at Southampton and everybody laughed at the 75m price tag. He had the basics but it's the coaching he's had at Liverpool that's taken him to the next level. It's bloody hard to spot any well coached patterns of play anywhere in our team.
While I agree with you that Maguire has that range in him too, I disagree that it is all due to training drills with VVD and these type of diagonal passes. If it were a drill, they will all be in approximately the same scenario but as you can see from that video (which is, btw, from a single game), VVD does the kind of diagonal passes from different distances and at different places on the pitch. Yes, he knows that TAA will be there to receive, but that's not something you need drilling with. It's just tactics and execution. We have the tactics but usually lack in the execution (especially with the bombing fullbacks).
Your logic about the long pass is laughable. Football is about team work not just relying on one player. When build up the play from the back, you don't rely on one player but relying on the whole team. This isn't the first time there is discussion about how poor the positioning of our midfield. https://www.redcafe.net/threads/the-shape-of-our-midfield.456300/
Maguire has the ability to be able to invite opposition attackers which open space for our midfielders & attackers and make the pass to them, this ability was something we never had with Jones, Smalling, Lindelof & Bailly.
Why Maguire must do everything while the midfield & others are allowed to be static during the build up play. Good positioning, finding spaces & off ball movement are basic in football. Midfield who doesn't do that deserved to be criticised and even Pep did the same thing on Vidal. But somehow you expect Maguire to play long ball and our midfielders get passed for not doing the basic right.
And Maguire can play long passes to open play.
The pass at 12 seconds though
Once again obvious BS.
I can't wait to revisit this thread once Harry lifts the PL trophy.
Well it doesn't need to be a particularly complicated drill. Salah is told that if VVD receives it with a bit of space to get running, and VVD is told if he receives it in that space that Salah will be on the run and to look for him. Practice it a bit and off they go. Simple stuff, but we definitely don't do it.
Shaw is the only one who very occasionally will make that run for us. Rashford will but usually only once it gets to our midfield.
You don't read my post then?
Klopp is not Pep. He couldn't coach same passing game nor "always" having access to great midfielders. He struggled before he went out to buy VVD for world record fee eating his word on paying record fee for a single player. VVD changed improved Liverpool massively not just from defending perspective, but the approach when the midfield doesn't have enough quality.
Point being coaching, management is where the question is at. I rate Maguire personally, but not to the point shift the blame to other. He was bought but not played into his strength. Same as our midfielders, full backs. In short, a team of individuals.
What about you point it to me what I missed, I bet you can't because I haven't missed a thing while you are just making excuses being lazy to read my post. I made a valid point about your demand on the centre back to do everything while the midfielder is allowed not to do the basic right, while the long ball logic to open play is laughable.
Vidal positioning was poor in that video, it's basic. I play in midfield and I know it was a poor one. We got quality midfielders on the ball but off the ball they deserve to be criticised during our build up play. Somehow you expect our centre back to do everything while the midfielder and others are allowed to be passenger when player like Pogba was supposed to be known with his passing ability.
100% agree. Our attackers are not doing nearly enough runs in behind. Especially considering Pogba receives the ball just in front of the back 4 and he can serve those balls on a plate. Rashford does those runs only when we escape the high press but not on a regular basis. And even if he does it alone, it wouldn't work. For the space to open up, the other attackers need to stretch the defenders.
Then back to that clip VVD clip. What did Liverpool midfielder do that's ultra "mobile" out of this world? Ain't Liverpool midfielder making mistake as in Vidal case?
That's one game from VVD, comparing to compilation of several games of Maguire switch play to another fullback with little advance toward the pitch!
You could see how Fabinho was giving good option for Van Dijk to pass the ball to but he was still being marked on because the player who marked Fabinho didn't press Van Dijk. On the other hand, Liverpool full backs & wingers are more fluid in their movement unlike ours which other poster and myself have mentioned but somehow you are still insisting to criticise Maguire.
There was an attempt of pass last week from Maguire to Lingard against Luton where Lingard apologies for not making the run. Did you see it? Surely it should give you enough idea.
You think a young inexperienced CB who couldnt do it in Italy can lead the defense in the PL. He is nowhere near ready to do that, maybe in 2 years but not now.
It's true that Maguire tends to invite opposition players to press him, but it's a double-edged sword and you fail to mention the bad side of it. On some occassions, the midfielders are initially in good positions but become marked later because he holds onto the ball for too long.
Anyway all the passes from that clip I posted are pretty simple passes. There's nothing to hype about and I still don't see any kind of "captain's performance".
There is a lot of Anti Maguire fans on here because of his fee and his pace. We all knew what we were getting, so I do not know what the issue of some fans is.
Alot of the times, I see fans blaming him for goals, Mark Golbridge was blaming Maguire for the Brighton equaliser saying he didnt head it away.
When opposition players decide to press him that open space for the double pivot midfielders or the others because the markers who mark the midfielders went to Maguire instead.
When opposition players decide to press Maguire, they also block the passing lane to the double pivot midfielders. When opposition players decide to press Maguire, they press as a team and there would be other markers targeting the midfielders.
Not sure about that. When Van Dijk joined them in January, he solidified them straight away, so not much time for coaching to have much of an effect.
Those people who thought he wasn't worth £75m were just clearly wrong. The guy was clearly much better than people thought, but Southampton were holding him back.
No. By attracting pressure, Maguire is able to play through the initial press. This type of passes that our previous centre back couldn’t do.
If other markers are targeting the midfielder then it will open spaces for other players (Rashford, full backs, Martial & Greenwood), and Maguire can pass to them.
Exactly. And I’m starting to wonder if Ole really has that knowledge.
Again sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. There are plenty of occassions where Maguire hands the ball to the opposition unnecessarily after holding onto the ball too long, and blaming the midfielders is just a convenient excuse.No. By attracting pressure, Maguire is able to play through the initial press. This type of passes that our previous centre back couldn’t do.
If other markers are targeting the midfielder then it will open spaces for other players (Rashford, full backs, Martial & Greenwood), and Maguire can pass to them.
(0:13, 0:34, 1:19)
Do I need to waste my time to watch all of them, because you just wasted my time watching the first clip. The first clip alone should tell you how bad Matic’s positioning was and blocking Maguire but somehow you ignored it. I thought you understand when I mentioned our midfield and the others often bad when positioning themselves to find spaces or moving around off the ball but you actually don’t.
Matic was in a good position initially and offered an option for Maguire, but he decided to go onto his right foot, take on the opponent himself and eventually made a mess of it. Do I need to waste my time for more excuses?
Being one metre next to the guy initially is called good positioning and offered an option? Are you joking?
I think these clips show what many CBs have been guilty of doing lately. Keeping the ball is important, but when the risk is to big, clear it. We saw Varane do it in CL, as many other well known players. However Maguire is also good at attracting press before he passes it. If he could just evaluate the situation better and clear it instead of stubbornly dribble or hit those passes in dangerous situations I would be happy.
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