[8thWonder]

Back 4 doesn't mean ALL four defenders have to be there when opponents are attacking, does it?

I don't think anyone is necessarily saying it TFM fault by the way, bruno loses it when he's higher up the pitch and has to track back, fair enough that we're not in a perfect defensive shape.

The issue for me is that it's not Maguire's fault either. which people are making out it is, which seems like a stretch to me.

Who's the nearest to the goal? Him!!! It's all his fault!!! not how football works is it?

 

[romufc]

Back 4 doesn't mean ALL four defenders have to be there when opponents are attacking, does it?

The ball came from loss of possession, I am not blaming Fosu Mensah, in the same way I am not blaming Maguire.

Maguire has to make sure that the space is covered too, why would he go back into the red zone and play Ayew onside?

Also Maguire is also pre-empting a shot on goal if DDG saves he cleans up. and if the ball is pulled back he is there to clear before another player gets in the box.

Same way defending doesnt always mean follow your man, it is a bit of both, mark the zones and the man.

 

[Dante]

Maguire's positioning was fine. The cross was just too perfect. Played right down the corridor of uncertainty.

Maguire had three jobs in that instance: stay goal side of Ayew; cover the centre of the 6 yard box to block shots from late runs; and clear the ball. He did the first two well, but failed on the last. I know the impulse is to claim he shouldn't have failed to clear, but attackers can occasionally get things right to the extent where they take it out of the defender's hands.

You can argue the toss about him being a foot further forward or to the left or to the right. But any of those positions could have led to a goal as well if the cross had come in slightly differently. Sometimes the credit needs to go elsewhere.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Maguire's positioning was fine. The cross was just too perfect. Played right down the corridor of uncertainty.

Maguire had three jobs in that instance: stay goal side of Ayew; cover the centre of the 6 yard box to block shots from late runs; and clear the ball. He did the first two well, but failed on the last. I know the impulse is to claim he shouldn't have failed to clear, but attackers can occasionally get things right to the extent where they take it out of the defender's hands.

You can argue the toss about him being a foot further forward or to the left or to the right. But any of those positions could have led to a goal as well if the cross had come in slightly differently. Sometimes the credit needs to go elsewhere.

My point was that if he didn’t cover where he did there’d be an ocean of space right in the middle of the 6 yard box, it would have been very weird for that to happen and he would have been absolutely slaughtered on here if a Palace player made up the ground and scored there. TFM should have covered Ayew once he ended up at the back post.

 

[Dante]

My point was that if he didn’t cover where he did there’d be an ocean of space right in the middle of the 6 yard box, it would have been very weird for that to happen and he would have been absolutely slaughtered on here if a Palace player made up the ground and scored there. TFM should have covered Ayew.

I agree.

The only way Maguire could have prevented that 'goal', is if he'd stayed touch-tight to Ayew the entire way through. But whilst that might have worked in the above example, it would have been the wrong decision 8 times out of 10 for the reason you mentioned.

Any CB knows that the most important spot to defend during a cross is the edge of the 6 yard box in the middle of the goal.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

I agree.

The only way Maguire could have prevented that 'goal', is if he'd stayed touch-tight to Ayew the entire way through. But whilst that might have worked in the above example, it would have been the wrong decision 8 times out of 10 for the reason you mentioned.

Any CB knows that the most important spot to defend during a cross is the edge of the 6 yard box in the middle of the goal.

TFM is ball watching the whole time, doesn‘t see Ayew once as far as I can see, slows to a stop and only looks across at Ayew once the ball is played to him.

 

[Dante]

TFM is ball watching the whole time, doesn‘t see Ayew once as far as I can see, slows to a stop and only looks across at Ayew once the ball is played to him.

I can see where you're coming from.

AWB was struggling on the right so Lindelof left the middle and went over to help. Maguire spotted the space in the middle and went over to fill it, thereby vacating the left. In an ideal world, TFM should have been watching all this unfold and then run over to Ayew to mark the free man. But processing all of this would have required Jedi-level defending and awareness. I'm hesitant to lay the blame at the feet of a guy who doesn't know the position and hasn't played in yonks.

The way I see it, none of the defenders made a terrible mistake. We're talking fine margins here.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

Maguire's positioning was fine. The cross was just too perfect. Played right down the corridor of uncertainty.

Maguire had three jobs in that instance: stay goal side of Ayew; cover the centre of the 6 yard box to block shots from late runs; and clear the ball. He did the first two well, but failed on the last. I know the impulse is to claim he shouldn't have failed to clear, but attackers can occasionally get things right to the extent where they take it out of the defender's hands.

You can argue the toss about him being a foot further forward or to the left or to the right. But any of those positions could have led to a goal as well if the cross had come in slightly differently. Sometimes the credit needs to go elsewhere.

Yeah, the crossing is too good.
I'm not sure if Zaha is attempting a shot or a cross, I think he just hit it in and hope for the best. Anyhow, it turned into a great low cross to the far post.

I think Maguire's positioning is fine, many CB with good awareness would do similar by moving more centrally to block incoming cross in that situation.
Not good positioning because if he moves deeper, he would be able to "intercept" the cross.

Other than that, is it possible he's setting up offside trap?
If so.. then I don't see the point in setting up offside trap with Zaha already that deep into our box.
Maguire took a risk letting Ayew be and thankfully it's offside.

 

[Icemav]

Just to quote Suedesi's post again. Do people really really think this is NOT a bad defending, and Ayew supposed to be TFM man? I mean, really??

tbf the bad defending was from Mctominay. He runs to Zaha who had AWB and Lindy on him already, thereby leaving the run from 18 unmarked. You can see Maguire looking at 13 because he now has 2 problems to deal with and he is positioned in the best place to cope with both. If Harry was 100% on Ayew then a ball pulled back to 18 would have left him completely unmarked in the box.

Pointless of Mctominay tracking back from midfield to charge at marked men and leave other midfield runners free. TFM was behind the play so no point bringing him up imo as we had the numbers there.

Just my 2 cents.

EDIT: actually the more I look at it, asside from Mctom, several players were ball watching. Kind of just symtomatic of a game where we were very very passive for large parts.

 

[11101]

The debate is whether it's an error at all, that's why?

I genuinely don't think it is. He shouldn't follow Ayew and leave a huge gap in the middle free if there's no other defender near. It's a bit like going zonal instead of man marking for me.

If someone here has coached a defensive set up and knows better then I'm willing to listen but I think you're wrong.

I used to play as a CB under defensive coaches we had at my club, letting your man lose you like that is a mistake. No question. You're told to always know where your man is. Strikers train to make their move exactly as the defender turns their head away, which is exactly what Ayew did. Defenders train to not let it happen. It's not like he ran outside the box or anything, he drifted to the back post. Maguire is left covering empty space with nobody anywhere near him. If that runner comes into the box it's McTominay's responsibility to drop in between the centre backs and cover.

I'll bet he's been told about it and we'll see him looking over his shoulder a lot more in the next couple of games.

 

[Suedesi]

Sorry for the late reply, got held up by something. I don't think Maguire is aware of TFM being badly out of position, he doesn't have eyes on the back of his head and he is focused on the play. In that situation, I think he just has to trust the leftback. I thought his position was fine because he was ready to cut off the pass. The only reason the pass went in front of him and made it to Ayew, was becuase the guy was offside. Not by millimetres either, miles offside. And even then he had to make an effort and stretch for it.

He is aware, because when the phase of play starts, Maguire is isolated with Ayew and can see TFM is 20 yards away and with no chance of catching up. He needs to stick to his man and neutralize him.

 

[Suedesi]

For the amount we paid, he is so average. He's just not a great defender, period. He was responsible for the disallowed goal had that been ruled on.

We're now in a position where we have to splash out on another world class CB to compensate for his weaknesses. Don't worry though, he's a leader!

Agreed, though I do think he brings leadership qualities to the backline. He's no Baresi that's for sure.

 

[Suedesi]

Maybe Maguire knows he can cut it out unless Ayew strays offside.....

He doesn't, he's not aware of Ayew's movement. As I wrote somewhere else, he has no idea whether Ayew is offside in real time if it took VAR 5 minutes to determine that he was.

 

[Suedesi]

The whole defensive shape looks off. I dont think you can blame just one person here.
You could argue:
LIndelof should step one pace back, allowing Maguire to go a pace back to cut off the ball. However with that, if Zaha turns inside, hes not facing another man.
Ideally Maguire would be across closer to the ball with TFM tucked in. But then if he was just attacking and is getting back, it would make it almost impossible.

There are issues here, that need working on as a team. If Zaha reverses to the edge of the box, McT is not there to intercept or block a shot.
I do think Zaha had a good game against AWB though (especially as Zaha has gone on record talking about how AWB seemed to always get the better of him in training... I think)

Agree with that. AWB gets easily done, TFM is out position, Lindelof is ineffective, but Maguire has to take some blame, and my initial post was responding to some people saying "how could you blame Maguire for the disallowed goal". None of our defenders covers themselves in glory and that's an issue.

 

[Revan]

Clean sheet and there is an agenda against him still. He was brilliant tonight, the interceptions, tackles, headers he was winning. Could do better on the ball, but that applies to most players.

We all know we overpaid, there is no point going over it every game.

If we get CL, Harry Maguire will be a big part of it. Without him, we would not have a chance of getting CL football this season.

Yes, all the credits will go to Rashford, Martial, Pogba, Bruno and maybe Greenwood but they have not been firing all season. They have all come in parts and fired, the key constant has been our defence.

If only we managed to get UCL with Smalling (whom Maguire replaced) and Lindelof as our main CBs. Oh wait, we actually did it (and conceded 7 fewer goals in 2 more matches).

 

[Suedesi]

Would like to come in his thread and not be posting something negative, but he doesn't fill me with confidence or have the leadership skills he was touted to have.

The way Zaha rolled him, it makes me wonder what happens to him if we manage to make the CL.

Lindelof isn't good enough, but nor is Maguire, at least on his performance level this season. He needs a superstar next to him and then he needs to be 75% of what that guy is to meet the bar as an individual. Don't know if he has it in him.

I'm more underwhelmed by him than I was when he got here, which is worrying. He's certainly not the man to place our backline in the hands of going into PL and CL challenging campaigns.

Or Batshuayi in the league cup.

 

[Revan]

His marking for that disallowed goal was atrocious. Good performance bar that.

Not sure. TFM switched off, I think he was the main culprit. Magure did ok, considering that he had to also look on the other part of the box (there was someone running on that direction).

 

[MiracleInMadrid]

My point was that if he didn’t cover where he did there’d be an ocean of space right in the middle of the 6 yard box, it would have been very weird for that to happen and he would have been absolutely slaughtered on here if a Palace player made up the ground and scored there. TFM should have covered Ayew once he ended up at the back post.

Spot on. Nothing more needs to be said about Maguire in that situation.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Interesting article on Maguire from the coaches voice. It touches on what we’ve been speaking about these past couple of weeks. On corners his role is zonal, not to pick up any man and attack the ball. Due to his strength at this he often wins the first header but if he‘s beaten to the ball then it causes problems.

It also details how he sets himself to defend in situations like yesterday which often works for him but he can get caught out on low crosses when his attacker loses him.

https://www.coachesvoice.com/premier-league-manchester-united-harry-maguire/

 

[Revan]

Interesting article on Maguire from the coaches voice. It touches on what we’ve been speaking about these past couple of weeks. On corners his role is zonal, not to pick up any man and attack the ball. Due to his strength at this he often wins the first header but if he‘s beaten to the ball then it causes problems.

It also details how he sets himself to defend in situations like yesterday which often works for him but he can get caught out on low crosses when his attacker loses him.

https://www.coachesvoice.com/premier-league-manchester-united-harry-maguire/

Interesting.

The bolded ones are true. Both Liverpool (Van Diijk) and City (Otamendi) scored goals on him, but if he has a free role to only attack the ball, then the blame cannot be put on him despite that he was the closest player to their scorer.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Interesting.

The bolded ones are true. Both Liverpool (Van Diijk) and City (Otamendi) scored goals on him, but if he has a free role to only attack the ball, then the blame cannot be put on him despite that he was the closest player to their scorer.

For the goal last week? It was a brilliant corner and textbook flick on but I’d say the biggest fault was Matic’s because his man got the flick on which took Maguire out of the game and left Lindelof and DDG in a bad situation. He‘s at fault when he loses straight duels but I’d guess he’s given that role because it has a net benefit. There are many games when he’s winning every defensive header that comes in.

 

[Sylar]

Agree with that. AWB gets easily done, TFM is out position, Lindelof is ineffective, but Maguire has to take some blame, and my initial post was responding to some people saying "how could you blame Maguire for the disallowed goal". None of our defenders covers themselves in glory and that's an issue.

That's fair. I think with most goals conceded you could always find a fault anyway. But this situation you can look at each of them

 

[Revan]

For the goal last week? It was a brilliant corner and textbook flick on but I’d say the biggest fault was Matic’s because his man got the flick on which took Maguire out of the game and left Lindelof and DDG in a bad situation. He‘s at fault when he loses straight duels but I’d guess he’s given that role because it has a net benefit. There are many games when he’s winning every defensive header that comes in.

No, I was talking more in general. We conceded a few goals from corners and in some of them (Van Diijk and Otamendi for example), Maguire is the closest defender to Van Diijk/Otamendi, so it looks like they scored the goals on him. But if he has a free role to defend and is not marking anyone, then it makes more sense.

Last week, I don't think it was his fault.

 

[Isotope]

tbf the bad defending was from Mctominay. He runs to Zaha who had AWB and Lindy on him already, thereby leaving the run from 18 unmarked. You can see Maguire looking at 13 because he now has 2 problems to deal with and he is positioned in the best place to cope with both. If Harry was 100% on Ayew then a ball pulled back to 18 would have left him completely unmarked in the box.

Pointless of Mctominay tracking back from midfield to charge at marked men and leave other midfield runners free. TFM was behind the play so no point bringing him up imo as we had the numbers there.

Just my 2 cents.

EDIT: actually the more I look at it, asside from Mctom, several players were ball watching. Kind of just symtomatic of a game where we were very very passive for large parts.

I figured also, that might be the case. McTom shouldn't go to close Zaha, with AWB and Lindelof already there. Maguire was maybe anticipating the incoming 13.
But still, his immediate man was still Ayew.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

He'll be playing against the most tricky and technical forwards in Europe with much better feet, movement and smarts than Zaha, who will convert on what are near misses for players like Zaha.

Physical tussles and scrambling in the air isn't going to make up much of his time in the knockout stage of the competition.

Think it's a massive concern due to the amount of times he gets rolled even in the lower levels of the PL.

As long as Matic didn't miss the ball or stop trying to do fake interception, he'll be fine.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

No, I was talking more in general. We conceded a few goals from corners and in some of them (Van Diijk and Otamendi for example), Maguire is the closest defender to Van Diijk/Otamendi, so it looks like they scored the goals on him. But if he has a free role to defend and is not marking anyone, then it makes more sense.

Last week, I don't think it was his fault.

I guess then it could become a tactical question, are we adapting to a side like Liverpool who have VVD by putting Maguire on a man marking job on him or are we sticking to the same system because it works most of the time. Should we be going man to man on their most dangerous player when the occasion calls for it.

I’d guess Southampton might have practiced that free kick because of how Maguire defends corners and how DDG never leaves his line.

We’re lower average in the league for goals conceded from set pieces so I think there‘s a question about the overall picture here.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Maguire's positioning was fine. The cross was just too perfect. Played right down the corridor of uncertainty.

Maguire had three jobs in that instance: stay goal side of Ayew; cover the centre of the 6 yard box to block shots from late runs; and clear the ball. He did the first two well, but failed on the last. I know the impulse is to claim he shouldn't have failed to clear, but attackers can occasionally get things right to the extent where they take it out of the defender's hands.

You can argue the toss about him being a foot further forward or to the left or to the right. But any of those positions could have led to a goal as well if the cross had come in slightly differently. Sometimes the credit needs to go elsewhere.

Said it before, blaming on Maguire is just doesn't make any sense, the positioning was fine.

He saw McArthur was unmarked, Zaha could pass it to him and have a free shot right in front of DDG goal if Maguire didn't cover that spot. Maguire was also in the right position if Zaha decided to cross right onto Ayew's feet, but he didn't cross, Zaha took a shot which Ayew needed to stretch his leg in far post to touch the ball. If anything, Mensah should be covering the far post because that's his area. While Bissaka should be doing better since he should know that Zaha had only one choice in that tight angle but he failed to block or intercept it.

 

[Sokz]

If you unmark your man the least you got to do is cutoff the line of the inevitable cross. Simply move one step further to the goal then either you get it or DDG gets it.

 

[Suedesi]

Yep, we need a new striker, Martial isnt good enough lets sign a proper no.9

Rashford has started slow after lock down, he should be benched, move Martial to left start Ighalo. If we sign Sancho, Rashford should be benched.

Annoyingly it is all over the pitch, a few bad games and we want the player gone.

Shaw, AWB, Lindelof, Maguire, DDG.

This season was a transitional season, young players will always be inconsistent.

So many of our players are young, inexperienced and not been part of a team playing week in week out.
Ole has really done a job on them by putting the faith in them. Granted, some haven't come off, like Lingard, Perreira and maybe even Dalot.

This group will improve and get consistent, we as fans should stick by the players.

Here's the stick by the players slogan. What the feck does that even mean? We're not matchgoing fans moaning during the match. We're not booing the players as the match is being played. We're not having any affect on the play whatsoever. We're on a Internet forum, discussing a player's performance. So we're discussing it. Two days after the match is over. So what does stick by the players mean? Just another tired old cliche?

If you think he played 10/10 then fine you're entitled to your opinion. But please don't discuss Rashford and Martial and DDG and other nonsense whataboutsim in a Maguire player performance thread. Thank you.

 

[Suedesi]

If he covers the red area, he keeps Ayew onside. Obviouslt Fosu Mensah should be in position, Maguire is marking the space, what happens if Zaha hits, DDG saves and it is a tap in for one of the runners? Maguire is marking his zone.

The zone never scored a goal, opposing players did. Marking the player is usually more effective than marking abstract space.

Got anymore cliches?

 

[Suedesi]

I used to play as a CB under defensive coaches we had at my club, letting your man lose you like that is a mistake. No question. You're told to always know where your man is. Strikers train to make their move exactly as the defender turns their head away, which is exactly what Ayew did. Defenders train to not let it happen. It's not like he ran outside the box or anything, he drifted to the back post. Maguire is left covering empty space with nobody anywhere near him. If that runner comes into the box it's McTominay's responsibility to drop in between the centre backs and cover.

I'll bet he's been told about it and we'll see him looking over his shoulder a lot more in the next couple of games.

Spot on

 

[Lennon7]

I think Maguire will look a hell of a lot better with a solid, experienced defender next to him. We should go all out on a top quality centre half. Skriniar, Kouliably, perhaps De Ligt, Umtiti or Giminez too. Not entirely sure who but someone who could transform our back line. Maguire and Lindelof together aren't good enough, but either with a top CB could change their game.

Add a DM and ideally a right mid and we're golden. Kind of.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

What counts as an error leading to a goal these days. . .

Or Batshuayi in the league cup.

Whenever I’ve mentioned the Batshuayi goal the Maguire defendants go so bloody precious.

He’s simply not well skilled to play against pace & it’ll cost us.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

I used to play as a CB under defensive coaches we had at my club, letting your man lose you like that is a mistake. No question. You're told to always know where your man is. Strikers train to make their move exactly as the defender turns their head away, which is exactly what Ayew did. Defenders train to not let it happen. It's not like he ran outside the box or anything, he drifted to the back post. Maguire is left covering empty space with nobody anywhere near him. If that runner comes into the box it's McTominay's responsibility to drop in between the centre backs and cover.

I'll bet he's been told about it and we'll see him looking over his shoulder a lot more in the next couple of games.

I agree on CB cannot let your man lose and you need to stay with your man. This is not just for CB but for every players on the pitch, basic.

However, CB cannot be out of position unless if there is someone else cover his spot. You are going to leave massive blank for the area he's covering if he decides to go to that far post. This is where his team mate needs to help him rather than calling that as a mistake from Maguire. Maguire was in the fine position to intercept the ball if it goes straight to Ayew's feet, but the ball was shot, ball was supposed to be out, Ayew stretched out his leg to reach it. Mensah knows what he's doing and should be covering that spot rather than ball watching doing nothing.

Not a good analysis from defensive coach unfortunately.

 

[11101]

I agree on CB cannot let your man lose and you need to stay with your man. This is not just for CB but for every players on the pitch, basic.

However, CB cannot be out of position unless if there is someone else cover his spot. You are going to leave massive blank for the area he's covering if he decides to go to that far post. This is where his team mate needs to help him rather than calling that as a mistake from Maguire. Maguire was in the fine position to intercept the ball if it goes straight to Ayew's feet, but the ball was shot, ball was supposed to be out, Ayew stretched out his leg to reach it. Mensah knows what he's doing and should be covering that spot rather than ball watching doing nothing.

Not a good analysis from defensive coach unfortunately.

Except he knew TFM was still upfield from the previous attack, and there was nobody else anywhere near him, and both runners from midfield were well covered by Pogba and McTominay. He let his man get away from him.

Very similar to what Rio did in 2009 when he let Messi drift behind him for that header, a mistake he freely admits.

 

[Feed Me]

I think there’s a tendency to be a bit harsh on Maguire, myself included. He’s been important in helping us build more coherently from the back, while our defensive record is much improved if you review clean sheets and goals against, although I think this is more structural improvements across the team as opposed to the impact of one player. What’s clear is that we need a high class player alongside him. I generally like Lindelof as a back up, but he’s so fecking timid at times.

 

[CG1010]

I am ecstatic that we have reached a stage where instances of opposition players finding the net is deemed as an issue of defensive inadequacy. Our expectations and standards are rising again. Compared to times when DDG would be making world class saves after saves and nobody would battle an eyelid.

 

[Kostov]

It was obvious because they were defending to push Zaha to go with his weaker foot. You're having a mare alright. I'm sure it's mostly you that didn't understand that tactic. So fecking blinkered it's unreal

Whatever the tactic was, it was obviously executed poorly. He was neither positioned as he should be, and from that last picture I think he wouldn't cover shit if Zaha turned on his right. There were couple of other occasions where Zaha bypassed him with ease. So whatever the tactic you mean I missed, I think you miss how poorly that defending is being executed by AWB, Lindelof and McT.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Except he knew TFM was still upfield from the previous attack, and there was nobody else anywhere near him, and both runners from midfield were well covered by Pogba and McTominay. He let his man get away from him.

Very similar to what Rio did in 2009 when he let Messi drift behind him for that header, a mistake he freely admits.

If you actually re--watch the clip again (Dante posted on this page), Before Maguire decided to moved into central area, Maguire checked around him quickly and he knew where Ayew was as well as Fosu Mensah & all players. There was massive gap in that central area and he went to cover it. Mensah had plenty of time to drop back & cover for him, and instead he was just jogging back without sensing the danger.

 

[Kostov]

Just to quote Suedesi's post again. Do people really really think this is NOT a bad defending, and Ayew supposed to be TFM man? I mean, really??

So your take is that he should go closer to Ayew and leave a 5m gap between him and his partner while our midfielders left number 18 from Palace on the edge of the box totally unmarked? We have 3 players on Zaha and yet he still got a ball across goal past them, and people you blame Maguire. Like really?