Hargreaves had a good game today. Yet he almost let Baros through to one-on-one with keeper. I don't know how that's a Baros's foul. He's still not entirely convincing but had better game than his United usual.
Hargreaves vs. Carrick, Feadingseagulls vs. Noodle, Chief (Bayern Fan!) vs. Logic
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Probably true but still doesn't take away from the fact that Scholes horrendous.
Basically :
Carrick provides 90% of what Hargreaves does defensively but also provides 200% of what Hargreaves does on the ball.
Anderson provides 70% of what Hargreaves does defensively but also provides 150% of what Hargreaves does on the ball.
Fletcher provides 99% of what Hargreaves does defensively but also provides 125% of what Hargreaves does on the ball.
Scholes provides 45% of what Hargreaves does defensively but also provides 300% of what Hargreaves does on the ball.
So when and where is the best time to use Owen Hargreaves? When we have such a good selection of other players who can offer almost everything he does off the ball and a lot more on it.
Carrick provides 90% of what Hargreaves does defensively but also provides 200% of what Hargreaves does on the ball.
Anderson provides 70% of what Hargreaves does defensively but also provides 150% of what Hargreaves does on the ball.
Fletcher provides 99% of what Hargreaves does defensively but also provides 125% of what Hargreaves does on the ball.
Scholes provides 45% of what Hargreaves does defensively but also provides 300% of what Hargreaves does on the ball.
So when and where is the best time to use Owen Hargreaves? When we have such a good selection of other players who can offer almost everything he does off the ball and a lot more on it.
and I don't blame Hargreaves for us losing, as I still haven't figured out how we did manage to lose, but he was poor again today. He doesn't screen the back four at all. Watch the second half, people go past him with embarrasing ease time and again.
At one point he even let Baros straight through on goal, only for the ref to bottle it and bail him out
At one point he even let Baros straight through on goal, only for the ref to bottle it and bail him out
Mc feckwit must be your true name
So he wouldnt have been in the box trying to score a goal when we needed one? With Evra back on the half way line the whole thing is sorted. It's very poor planning and we got caught out.
Hello Chief of all the muppets. Should I salute my senior?
You seemed to have missed the point, it wouldn't have mattered if he was horrible as Carrick can cover for parts of his game that would be missing, Hargreaves cant
To be honest, I am much more worried when I see him in midfield than when I see Fletcher who is no worse than Hargreaves.
I love Anderson and he is one of my favorite players, but he did nt handle that long ball very well and Hargreaves would have end of story
Another fantastic contribution to this thread. You're like a little child.
cue: "Am not!"
Ditto with Evra, who was also on the pitch.
Ps. Not that I disagree with the notion that Anderson had a poor game or that scholes should have been substituted instead. What I'm saying is, we wouldnt have needed Hargreaves there if we'd planned correctly. There was no good reason why Anderson and Rooney would be the players on the half way line.
This is just rubbish. FFS We were ace through out the 94 mintues going forward. Even with him on and the pitch
I haven't. I've already stated somewhere on this forum that Carrick is the one midfielder who can perform well alongside anybody.
I'm just saying it still doesn't take away from the fact that Scholes was awful yet we're not seeing a thread about it, rather we are seeing more comments on Hargreaves. Scholes is given a freer role when played alongside Hargreaves, and when the latter was taken off Scholes wasn't much better.
It's not Hargreaves' job to be creative, end of story. Scholes didn't do his job. Even then, blame should be put on our forwards (and ref) rather than the midfield.
Carrick can do both, so can Anderson
So if we field 9 defenders and one striker at home against Derby, and draw 0-0, it's the strikers fault because it's not the defenders job to be creative? Hargreaves' job is to improve the team. It's not his personal fault we slightly turn into shit more times than not when he plays, but that doesn't mean he should start.
No then it would be Ferguson's fault because not even Rafa would play 9 defenders against Derby
Up yours. We lost day a game we didn't deserve to. Because our defence went missing and left Anderson and Rooney to delay with a long ball. But all fools like you can do is lie to us about how Hargreaves supposedly made us poor going forward today, how he always starts games we lose, and how "people go past him with embarrasing ease time and again" in game we ruthlessly dominated Pompey and the hardly got in a single serious attack with him on the pitch.
You are a disgrace and pathetic excuse of a football fan!
As part of a 442 its every midfiielder's job to be creative. Sorry. It just doesn't work any other way. Take a look at Mascherano who is playing his role successfully at Liverpool.
Anyone who has watched them this season (and isnt just lying) would be able to tell you that Mascherano has been pushed, to better his ability on the ball and provide much more going forwards. He's now reaping the benefit because he's no longer just a "defensive specialist" but rather he contributes very successfully to their attack. That doesnt make him a Gerrard or Alonso, but it means Liverpool can play him to sure up the defence and not lose much going forwards.
Right now that's exactly what we're doing. We're playing a player to try and sure up the defence, but he's blunting the attack because he offers very little going forward. It's adding extra impetus to Scholes, Nani, Tevez, Rooney and Ronaldo to provide and yet when Carrick plays instead they have another body who is capable of making the difference in a match.
And now with Fletcher providing everything Hargreaves does defensively and more coming forwards, it really does beg the question of where and when Hargreaves should be used - because he simply isnt the best option, or rather, selecting him leads to us playing worse than if we select other players. He doesn't quite fit.
Anyone who has watched them this season (and isnt just lying) would be able to tell you that Mascherano has been pushed, to better his ability on the ball and provide much more going forwards. He's now reaping the benefit because he's no longer just a "defensive specialist" but rather he contributes very successfully to their attack. That doesnt make him a Gerrard or Alonso, but it means Liverpool can play him to sure up the defence and not lose much going forwards.
Right now that's exactly what we're doing. We're playing a player to try and sure up the defence, but he's blunting the attack because he offers very little going forward. It's adding extra impetus to Scholes, Nani, Tevez, Rooney and Ronaldo to provide and yet when Carrick plays instead they have another body who is capable of making the difference in a match.
And now with Fletcher providing everything Hargreaves does defensively and more coming forwards, it really does beg the question of where and when Hargreaves should be used - because he simply isnt the best option, or rather, selecting him leads to us playing worse than if we select other players. He doesn't quite fit.
My point exactly. Why do we need a defender in midfield at home against Pompey? Perhaps he defended well, but that doesn't mean WE play any better.
Damning? When Carrick also started all our defeats to City and Bolton. And was the one brought on when we conceded the Equaliser at The Emirates and today, the goal that actually kicked us out today?
indeed. That is why Carrick was now where in sight when we were being hit on the counter and Rooney and Anderson w re attempting to do his job. Which is to stop counter attacks
How did he blunt our attack today? Present the evidence?
Salute your self moron. No one else one here is known as a feckwit except you
Mozza said:
Indeed. How is this Hargreaves fault though? He did his job well, Scholes didn't. Maybe both shouldn't have played and Carrick/Anderson should have started but at least Hargreaves put in a good performance doing what he was brought in to do whereas Scholes didn't. The blame shouldn't be put on Hargreaves and even then, chances were created by our forwards but they just failed to take their chances which is neither Hargreaves/Scholes fault and exactly our FORWARDS fault which is where I'm laying some of the blame (you can't forget the ref).
End of the day, if Rooney puts his chance away and we actually receive our penalty we'd be most likely through. On top we'd have had a good defensive play from Hargreaves... which was exactly that.
Now IF our forwards didn't even create chances then that's where you look to the manager and that's when you decide to bring on the likes of Carrick/Anderson but it would be more effective if actually both Hargreaves/Scholes went off rather than just Hargreaves because Scholes did nothing at all. The fact that Hargreaves is taking all the blame yet Scholes did nothing but pass sideways himself is ridiculous when he's meant to be the creative player of the midfield.
To summarise:
1) The problem was our forwards/ref
2) Our midfield wasn't the problem
3) Even so, Hargreaves did his job and Scholes was just a passenger if you're going to clutch at straws
djemba's arse said:
What are you talking about? It's the strikers fault because they failed to take their chances. It's hardly Hargreaves' fault that Rooney didn't shoot and got tackled by Sol. It's not Hargreaves' fault that Tevez shot at Johnson. It's not Hargreaves' fault that Evra hit the post. It's not Hargreaves' fault that Tevez failed to receive the pass when Evra was through on the left. It's not Hargreaves' fault the referee couldn't spot the penalty on Ronaldo to save his life.
Bollocks. Carrick was up for the corner. It's not he who decides who goes up for corners and who stays back. Any one of our defenders (Hargreaves too) would have done a much better job than Rooney and Anderson in that case, so why they were left as our only defenders only SAF knows.indeed. That is why Carrick was now where in sight when we were being hit on the counter and Rooney and Anderson w re attempting to do his job. Which is to stop counter attacks
Baros clearly pulled his shirt
That day they played like Kindergarten students. Today the defend superbly but we were still ripping them to shreds.
Bullshit. Our center backs and Carrick had no fecking excuse to be leaving Anderson and Rooney to deal with counter attacks. That is not a managerial fault. Just fecking stupid defending.
Don't think you understand what I'm trying to say. Hargreaves is mainly a defensive player. More defensive players mean less chance of scoring and less chance of conceding. At home against portsmouth, playing our regular back four should be enough - we shouldn't have to bring in a defensive midfielder in addition to that. We missed a lot of chances today. Perhaps we would have created (or even put away) even more if someone offering a bit more going forward than Hargreaves had played? Like last time we played Portsmouth at home (and won, easily).
Seconded
Hargreaves puts the burden of passing solely on one player, and if that player has an off day that's the team fecked, it's not his fault that his team mate was rubbish, it is his fault that he can' pass, he shouldn't be here.
Thirded
Thats like saying Rooney and Tevez place all the burden of scoring goals on one player. If that player has an off day the team's fecked. Maybe Rooney and Tevez arent good enough for United either
His passing isn't as bad as all that.
Err.. no. That's not even remotely the same thing. Rooney and Tevez both can score goals, hence both players must have an off day for the team to be completely fecked. Hargreaves offers nothing going forward, hence his midfield partner must bear this burden alone.Thats like saying Rooney and Tevez place all the burden of scoring goals on one player. If that player has an off day the team' fecked. Maybe Rooney and Tevez arent good enough for United either
I second that one. Still hargreaves isnt worth that amount of money...NEVER!
I thought Hargreaves passing was above his normal station today. Played a lovely ball to Rooney in the penalty area.
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