Hargreaves vs. Carrick, Feadingseagulls vs. Noodle, Chief (Bayern Fan!) vs. Logic

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I saw the second leg of the Bayern - Milan game. Milan embarrassed Bayern in their own back yard. Kaka's selfishness on the night was the only thing that stopped it from becoming a major humiliation. I dont know what happened in the first leg, though. I don't think it matters all that much.

I reckon talent trumps both drive and bite.

Not sure. Keane was never the most talented player, but he had enough ability to hold his own, and could really force himself upon a game. I'd take him over any number of players who were easily more talented.

If our midfield is missing something, it's that ability to take a game by the neck and literally force the issue. Like Gattuso did last year. I've never seen Hargreaves do that. He's not even capable of doing that.
 
Tevez has been playing at 70-80% of his capabilities due to fitness, yet he still gets criticised from some quarters.

He's been excellent for the most part since joining us. Though I don't buy this fitness thing. If a player is still only 70-80% fit after three quarters of the season, despite no injuries, that'd be more than slightly concerning
 
It's all subjective, but i do agree, however Hargreaves is more pacey. Plus anyone who happened to see Hargreaves mark Kaka out last year in CL will know what the boy can do. Come on lads he will produce the goods, i for one think he has just become an unnecessary scapegoat.

Like Mascherano did in the Champions League final.
 
Which Liverpool lost comfortably. Just like Bayern, in fact.

The importance of holding midfield players
 
I did. Bayern were good for about ten minutes, then Mialn just slapped them about. It wasn't even a contest
 
He's been excellent for the most part since joining us. Though I don't buy this fitness thing. If a player is still only 70-80% fit after three quarters of the season, despite no injuries, that'd be more than slightly concerning

It's because he hasn't had a proper rest for 2 years. He's just been playing constantly.
 
Mascherano came off in the 78th minute for Crouch when they were a goal behind and chasing the game, Chief.

They went behind to a freak goal with Pirlo's freekick hitting Inzaghi's back and being deflected in.

Milan and Kaka did feck all apart from that in the game. As soon as Mascharano is subbed off, Kaka finds the time and space to put Inzaghi clean through.

At the end of the day, the team that wins the CL is generally clinical in front of goal. You wont get many chances against class sides and if our strikers don't make the most of it, we wont win.
 
Is that meant as another dig at Wayne Rooney, by any chance?

:confused:

What? Big games are normally close with both sides cancelling each other out for most of the game. There are hardly too many chances created especially in Europe. If you are expecting us to hammer European sides in the CL, its not going to happen even if we had Roy Keane at his pomp.
 
Good article. Long, but worth reading. Good insights into roles.
Owen Hargreaves, sitting in the hot seat

Owen Hargreaves plans to put his European pedigree to good use against Lyons on Tuesday

Jonathan Northcroft


It has not taken Owen Hargreaves long to speak Manchester United. All the correct terminology is used. Wayne Rooney is “Wazza”, Nemanja Vidic, “Vida”, he mentions “Giggsy and Scholesy”, not “Ryan and Paul”, as a naive new squad addition might. And the most important person is afforded his proper soubriquets.
“The Manager knows what he needs,” Hargreaves says, or “it was The Boss’s idea . . .” Hargreaves talks the lingo as if Carrington has been his workplace for years. Born in Canada of English parents, it took him a long time to become a footballer in this country and at the club he long wanted to play for but Hargreaves and United now seem a perfect fit.
It was different in Germany. Plucked from Canada, he arrived at Bayern Munich an adolescent in a strange country, but there was no willkommen mat. “At Bayern, the tension in the team was probably a bit too much. There were tackles and fights all the time. I remember my first season, you can’t imagine how many fist fights I had with older players. They felt threatened by me,” Hargreaves says. “I wasn’t going about my business in a poor way, I was just playing hard, training hard and making myself be known. They took offence because they could feel me coming through.
“Here it’s not like that at all. There’s no animosity. If you play, you’re good enough and you deserve to play. It’s not a case of being dropped or anything like that and if you play for United you realise there’s a bigger picture. Every player here has a different style and who’s picked depends on how we want to play. We played Arsenal and Lyons back to back and picked different teams in both games.”
It is not just that United are what Hargreaves wants; Hargreaves is what United want, and that, of course, is no accident. After the Djemba-Djemba/ Kleberson/Bellion summer of 2003, when missing out on Ronaldinho appeared to make Sir Alex Ferguson take a funny turn in the transfer market, he has been pristine with his signings and the secret has been concentrating on one or two specific targets per season rather than buying en masse. Where Rafael Benitez might spend a transfer window acquiring three or four Yossi Benayouns for £18m, the Ferguson policy is to buy one Anderson or Michael Carrick for the same price. So it was with Hargreaves, who United spent almost two years trying to prise from Bayern prior to his arrival in July 2007. “Man United sign their players specifically based on the needs of the team, which is very clever. A lot of teams don’t do that. They buy anyone, or just look at the name, then try and fit all the players together,” Hargreaves says.
Ferguson was looking for a holding player, but not any old holding player. He wanted a midfielder who would sit, but not sit still. Defensive midfield measures are required in modern football but given the number of attacking options he still wanted fitted into his side, Ferguson wondered if he might not be able to get one player to do the spoiling midfield job other clubs use two to do. Not only would that player need positional awareness and discipline, but also levels of fitness and speed necessary to get about the normal territory of two men. Step forward Hargreaves; Arsène Wenger, for similar reasons, alighted on Mathieu Flamini.
“The manager knows what he needs and because we play so open and attacking, we need someone who is not just a traditional holding midfield player but who can cover a lot of ground as well, because the distances are quite big. I knew that coming in, and that’s what I do best,” says Hargreaves. “I had to play against Kaka last year and that’s why they signed me. Against Lyons my job was to keep an eye on Juninho and limit his abilities. When you play against these top players it’s difficult to completely knock them out of the game, because they’re that good, but you do what you can.
“Ideally, everyone would like to have the stepovers and overhead kicks and be like Ronaldo. But we all have abilities and you learn what you do well, and then focus on doing that. When you’re younger you want to try to do everything, but here you’ve got to look at the bigger picture. We’re all pieces of a puzzle and the pieces fit to make our team, and if everybody does what they do well we can probably beat any team in the world.”
With such a mindset it seems bizarre that Hargreaves was watched by Liverpool when his team came over from Canada for an under-14 tournament in Wales and was rejected by Steve Heighway, Liverpool’s then academy manager, who told Hargreaves’s father: “Nah, he’s too greedy.” Nowadays, selflessness is his key. Ferguson has said it is in Europe that he expects Hargreaves to make the biggest difference to United, and while injuries restricted his involvement in the Champions League group stages to one 11-minute substitute appearance against Sporting Lisbon, he was straight into the team for the first knockout stage first leg against Lyons and is expected to start in Tuesday’s return game at Old Trafford.
He has the pedigree, having won the Champions League with Bayern before he started a game for England. He also has the confidence. “United are like Bayern,” he says. “For us even a draw is a bad result. I expect us to be in the FA Cup final, I expect us to be in the Champions League final and, hopefully, to win the league again. We have the abilities.”
Hargreaves feels that despite the fact that one away goal for Lyons could alter the dynamic of the tie, United should progress. “It will be difficult for them to score at Old Trafford because it is for any opponent, and we felt 1-1 over there was a good result,” he says. “An away goal in the Champions League is massive. I thought [Karim] Benzema played well and scored a great goal, but we contained them in open play and it was just the set-pieces that were dangerous.”
Though the tendinitis that ruined the early part of his season can still flare up on a firm surface, the sky appears otherwise cloudless for this Germano-Canuck Englishman. “I never thought I’d travel so much,” he says. “I look at the places I’ve lived like chapters in a book. There’s no point reminiscing. I’m here now and enjoying it. At Munich, you were expected to know your place. There’s a hierarchy. Here, if you’re good, you’re good. There are no young and old players, they say, only good and bad ones. I think in England that is a true statement.”
Capello’s verdict
This game won’t be easy, but it was good for United to get the away goal. Lyons have to score at Old Trafford, but if they come to attack, it will be present a problem. Everyone knows if United fi nd the space on the counter-attack they will be dangerous. I remember United v Roma last season. When Roma attacked, United counter-attacked. We all saw what happened then. If United play to their strengths in this competition they can achieve success
The protector: how Owen Hargreaves shields his defence
Two heads are better than one? Not if you’re Sir Alex Ferguson. Whereas most top teams in Europe use at least two ‘sitting’ midfielders to protect their defence, Manchester United deploy just one. Ferguson was specific about his requirements when he signed Hargreaves, realising the need for a more defensive midfield player to use in the Champions League but not wanting to compromise too far his attacking principles. The solution was to find a player who could not only hold a defensive position in front of United’s back four, but get around a large area of midfield to make tackles and interceptions while more positive midfielders like Paul Scholes, Ryan Giggs or Anderson could concentrate on going forward. The player to fit the bill would have to be disciplined, aggressive, quick and super-fit: step forward Hargreaves
In midfield, Scholes’s job is to pass the ball forward and go up in support of attacks. Hargreaves, meanwhile, stays, ready to dash across to wherever necessary to make a tackle or interception if United’s move breaks down and the opposition gain possession. Against Lyons he had the additional responsibility of looking after the elusive Juninho, who plays a roving role behind Lyons’s front line. Of the 16 teams to play in the Champions League first knockout stage on February 21-22, only two others used the same attacking model as United: Barcelona, for who Yaya Toure is a solo defensive midfielder, and Arsenal, where Mathieu Flamini is the closest to a copy of Hargreaves
Excellent post
 
They went behind to a freak goal with Pirlo's freekick hitting Inzaghi's back and being deflected in.

Milan and Kaka did feck all apart from that in the game. As soon as Mascharano is subbed off, Kaka finds the time and space to put Inzaghi clean through.

At the end of the day, the team that wins the CL is generally clinical in front of goal. You wont get many chances against class sides and if our strikers don't make the most of it, we wont win.

Kaka found time and space because Liverpool were chasing the game - it generally happens that way with 10 minutes left in a cup final.
 
Mascherano was subbed off with about ten minutes left, yah daft twat
You are a fecking idiot. The goal that killed off the game as a contest was scored after Mascherano left the field. The unmarked Kaka had all the time to pick a pass to Inzaghi. Because he was no longer being tracked by Mascherano. The game ended 2 -1 remember?
 
Kaka found time and space because Liverpool were chasing the game - it generally happens that way with 10 minutes left in a cup final.

So how come Scholes or Rooney or Ronaldo don't find much space in the big games? Its because they have the likes of Gattuso or Makalele closing them down.

Atleast they are chasing the game being just a goal down in the last 10 min. We just get thrashed with Carrick in the middle.
 
What I think Sir Alex will chose:

-------VDS
Brown Rio Vida Evra
----Hargreaves
---Carrick Scholes
Ronaldo Rooney Giggs

------------------------------

Id chose:

-------VDS
Brown Rio Vida Evra
------Fletcher
---Carrick Scholes
Ronaldo Rooney Nani

Subs: PIG, Oshea (Versatility), Hargreaves (Could cover right back), Giggs, Anderson, Tevez, Saha.
 
You are a fecking idiot. The goal that killed off the game as a contest was scored after Mascherano left the field. The unmarked Kaka had all the time to pick a pass to Inzaghi. Because he was no longer being tracked by Mascherano. The game ended 2 -1 remember?

They were already losing when he went off, if you remember. By your silly logic, they actualy drew 1-1 without Mascherano on the pitch.

A flawlessly self defeating argument.

Well done
 
I did. Bayern were good for about ten minutes, then Mialn just slapped them about. It wasn't even a contest
Milan never slapped them about. Bayern was in control for the first 10 minutes, then Milan took over and scored two quick goals in the brief 20-25 minute period they were on top in the first half. After that Bayern sat on them till the match ended. Only toothless inf ront of goal and around the box due to the absence of first teamers like Schweinstieger which cost them dearly. Kaka apart from his goal was a none entity in that game. It's Seedorf who marshalled Milan and was the only thorn in Bayern's side. Alongside their impregnable defence. In fact Kaka was so invisible that Hargreaves ended the match as an attacking midfielder
 
:confused:

What? Big games are normally close with both sides cancelling each other out for most of the game. There are hardly too many chances created especially in Europe. If you are expecting us to hammer European sides in the CL, its not going to happen even if we had Roy Keane at his pomp.

:confused: So that whole 7-1 mauling of Roma thing was just a dream?

Bugger.
 
Not sure. Keane was never the most talented player, but he had enough ability to hold his own, and could really force himself upon a game. I'd take him over any number of players who were easily more talented.

If our midfield is missing something, it's that ability to take a game by the neck and literally force the issue. Like Gattuso did last year. I've never seen Hargreaves do that. He's not even capable of doing that.

I disagree, although I agree with your assesment of Keane.

Smith, Heinze are very good examples of players who had both drive and determination, yet they lacked the necessary talent to succeed at a club like United.

Both Scholes and Giggs lack the thunder and drive of Keane, but have become legends in their own right.

I win.
 
:confused: So that whole 7-1 mauling of Roma thing was just a dream?

Bugger.

We were losing away games even against shite sides like Celtic and Copenhagen. Carrick hardly turns up during the away matches. We play those games with 10 men. One freak result doesnt change much. If we are going by that game alone, we should have retained Alan Smith as our first choice striker.
 
Is that meant as another dig at Wayne Rooney, by any chance?
No. It's a statement of fact. It doesn't matter who our strikers are. If on the day of the final, they and others, don't take our chances, we will lose. Liverpool, Milan & Arsenal proved this in the three times they reached the final and lost in recent years. Being clinical wins finals. 99 at the Nou Camp was testament to that
 
We were losing away games even against shite sides like Celtic and Copenhagen. Carrick hardly turns up during the away matches. We play those games with 10 men. One freak result doesnt change much. If we are going by that game alone, we should have retained Alan Smith as our first choice striker.

You keep coming back to the Celtic and Copenhagen games as a way of showing that Carrick is shit. But you seem to conveniently ignore that there were 10 other players on the pitch those nights, who also failed to turn up.

To lay the blame solely on Carrick's door is, to say the least, stupid and ignorant.
 
They were already losing when he went off, if you remember. By your silly logic, they actualy drew 1-1 without Mascherano on the pitch.
No by yours you fecking moron. If Mascherano had not been subbed Liverpool would still have scored. They had been on top for ages after all. The big difference is Kaka would never have been free to feed Inzaghi to kill off the game and put it beyond Liverpool. Which is too had for your simple brain to grasp.

But feck it...why am I bothering with you?:rolleyes: Your wonderful logic claimed it was certain we would lose at Fulham just last evening. Because Fergie had "spastically" rested Rooney and Ronaldo, for a much more important game. :wenger:


A flawlessly self defeating argument.

Well done
Talking about yourself as usual.
 
Milan never slapped them about. Bayern was in control for the first 10 minutes, then Milan took over

That's what I just said.

Feckin' hell


Kaka apart from his goal was a none entity in that game. It's Seedorf who mashalled Milan and was the only thorn in Bayern's side.

Milan had it easy, since Bayern couldn't hurt them. Kaka had a number of chances, especially on the break, to make something happen. He wasted them by either picking the wrong pass or being too selfish. He was hardly marked out of the game.

Basically, Milan were a class apart from Bayern, and it showed.

In fact Kaka was so invisible that Hargreaves ended the match as an attacking midfielder

That might have had more to do with Bayern needing to score two quick goals in order to not lose. Just guessing mind

...Or maybe you're right, Kaka was so rubbish, there was no need for Hargreaves to be there, in which case, why the feck are you bigging up Hargreaves for marking Kaka out of the game? Can't you see the rather obvious flaw there?

Using a game in which Hargreaves's team lost comfortably, despite you thinking he played well, to justify why we need him to win games, doesn't actually make any sense.
 
Milan never slapped them about. Bayern was in control for the first 10 minutes, then Milan took over and scored two quick goals in the brief 20-25 minute period they were on top in the first half. After that Bayern sat on them till the match ended. Only toothless infront of goal due to the absence of first teamers like Makaay cost them dearly. Kaka apart from his goal was a none entity in that game. It's Seedorf who mashalled Milan and was the only thorn in Bayern's side. Alongside their impregnable defence. In fact Kaka was so invisible that Hargreaves ended the match as an attacking midfielder

the cavalry arrives, but lets face it we are never going to win over the hargreaves doubters, simply because people understandably don't understand the role of these players, because its not entirely obvious.
 
We were losing away games even against shite sides like Celtic and Copenhagen. Carrick hardly turns up during the away matches. We play those games with 10 men. One freak result doesnt change much. If we are going by that game alone, we should have retained Alan Smith as our first choice striker.

and let us not forget it was 2-1 away in Rome.
 
the cavalry arrives, but lets face it we are never going to win over the hargreaves doubters, simply because people understandably don't understand the role of these players, because its not entirely obvious.

Anyone who understands football, understands the role that Hargreaves is supposed to play.

Unfortunately, as of yet, he's yet to play it very well for us.
 
and let us not forget it was 2-1 away in Rome.

Which was a fecking awesome result considering that we had to play over an hour with only 10 men, while at the same time, our fans were being beaten to a pulp in the stands.

Even Rio said that after the match, the players treated the result as a win.
 
No by yours you fecking moron. If Mascherano had not been subbed Liverpool would still have scored. They had been on top for ages after all. The big difference is Kaka would never have been free to feed Inzaghi to kill off the game and put it beyond Liverpool. Which is too had for your simple brain to grasp.

But feck it...why am I bothering with you?:rolleyes: Your wonderful logic claimed it was certain we would lose at Fulham just last evening. Because Fergie had "spastically" rested Rooney and Ronaldo, for a much more important game. :wenger:


Talking about yourself as usual.

:lol:

Take that noods
 
.........
...Or maybe you're right, Kaka was so rubbish, there was no need for Hargreaves to be there, in which case, why the feck are you bigging up Hargreaves for marking Kaka out of the game? Can't you see the rather obvious flaw there?
The only flaw is with your crude version of logic. Kaka was made to look poor by Hargreaves. Just like Mascherano did to him in the final. Which is his job. It's not rocket since or hard to understand! In your warped version of reality however players are only made to look bad because of off days

Using a game in which Hargreaves's team lost comfortably, despite you thinking he played well, to justify why we need him to win games, doesn't actually make any sense.
To you obviously. Because it never occurred to you in your dream state that Bayern where badly under strength against Milan and had wingers like Sahidazimic playing at fullback, and missed first choice men all over the pitch, but most importantly in attacking positions, where only poor finishing cost them a chance to progress. Not the presence of Hargreaves in their midfield...

You were also must have been fast asleep when Carrick and Fletcher were watching as Kaka scored us 3 times in two legs. While Gattuso was stopping us from touching the ball, because they had no physical ability rumble with him. You must have also been snoring loudly, by the time Kaka came alive after Mascherano's departure from the field to free Inzaghi and win the Champions League final for Milan. ...........
 
You keep coming back to the Celtic and Copenhagen games as a way of showing that Carrick is shit. But you seem to conveniently ignore that there were 10 other players on the pitch those nights, who also failed to turn up.

To lay the blame solely on Carrick's door is, to say the least, stupid and ignorant.

When Bayern lose the match after dominating Milan with 58% possession and 16 shots on goal compared to 7 for Milan, its solely Hargreaves fault.

When Liverpool lose to Milan with 10 shots on goal compared to just 4 against its solely Mascherano's fault.

When we lose to shite sides like Celtic with just 52% possession and 10 shots on goal while they have 8, its not Carrick's fault ?
 
Anyone who understands football, understands the role that Hargreaves is supposed to play.

Unfortunately, as of yet, he's yet to play it very well for us.

i guess one of the two poles of this debate will be pulling this thread up after every match Hargreaves features in for his whole united career. Lets just all hope he does turn out to be our defensive midfield maestro that i believe he can, perhaps is, and surely will be.
 
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