Hargreaves vs. Carrick, Feadingseagulls vs. Noodle, Chief (Bayern Fan!) vs. Logic

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To the person who mentioned that price tag should not be played up. I couldn't agree any more!

Price tag should be irrelevent, unless, it is a signing that is meant to make an instant impact. It just puts too much pressure on players to perform and more often than not defeats them on a psychological level.
This is vitally important when we look at young players like Nani and Anderson who cost a fortune, and Hargreaves, who needs a run in the side consistenly as well as time to adapt to the United side properly. If you remember, Hargreaves played for a slow playing Bayern side so the change in tempo and pace is a huge thing for him.

There are a few places that I would like to see him improve his game. He does play a lot of square balls and sometimes he can be quite negative in terms of his midfield distribution, however, Hargreaves does know his limits in terms of what he can do on the ball and I would much rather than "Hargo" kept it simple, rather than being a player like Nicky Butt who often seemed to think he was capable of Scholes-esque balls when he wasn't.

Hargreaves has been assigned to provide us something that none of the other midfielders can do at United. Last night was a case in point, in terms of nullifying players with raw pace and power. He did a splendid job on Benzema whenever he would drop back into the midfield to link up the play. He did a good job tracking and attempting to make the very dangerous Govou, ineffectual. The fact that we had two other central midfielders playing just goes to show that the majority of the forward distribution and creativity was the job of both Anderson and Scholes, and any lack of should be pointed at those two instead of Hargreaves.

What Hargreaves did well in that game, also went unnoticed. He won the ball on many occasions when, both Scholes and Anderson struggled to win balls, and he linked the play up to them two very well. I think that people can jump to conclusions on a player when quite clearly, they don't have much of an understanding for the tactical elements of a players game.
 
fair enough, carrick has been good as of late. i think he should definitely start at home to lyon to really knock them off their feet and attack like we did against arse and roma last year. but hargreaves can and does burst forward when he can.. he has the pace to do so.

He has the pace, no doubt, but not the passing skills and the vision to really provide some creativity or to create chances. That's the area where he has to improve until he can considered a first team player, and that's why Carrick imo is the better choice
 
He has the pace, no doubt, but not the passing skills and the vision to really provide some creativity or to create chances. That's the area where he has to improve until he can considered a first team player, and that's why Carrick imo is the better choice

In a two man midfield then Anderson, Scholes and Carrick all get my choice as getting the nod over Hargreaves, however, in a midfield three then Hargreaves gets automatic inclusion for tactical reasons.
 
To the person who mentioned that price tag should not be played up. I couldn't agree any more!

Price tag should be irrelevent, unless, it is a signing that is meant to make an instant impact. It just puts too much pressure on players to perform and more often than not defeats them on a psychological level.
This is vitally important when we look at young players like Nani and Anderson who cost a fortune, and Hargreaves, who needs a run in the side consistenly as well as time to adapt to the United side properly. If you remember, Hargreaves played for a slow playing Bayern side so the change in tempo and pace is a huge thing for him.

There are a few places that I would like to see him improve his game. He does play a lot of square balls and sometimes he can be quite negative in terms of his midfield distribution, however, Hargreaves does know his limits in terms of what he can do on the ball and I would much rather than "Hargo" kept it simple, rather than being a player like Nicky Butt who often seemed to think he was capable of Scholes-esque balls when he wasn't.

Hargreaves has been assigned to provide us something that none of the other midfielders can do at United. Last night was a case in point, in terms of nullifying players with raw pace and power. He did a splendid job on Benzema whenever he would drop back into the midfield to link up the play. He did a good job tracking and attempting to make the very dangerous Govou, ineffectual. The fact that we had two other central midfielders playing just goes to show that the majority of the forward distribution and creativity was the job of both Anderson and Scholes, and any lack of should be pointed at those two instead of Hargreaves.

What Hargreaves did well in that game, also went unnoticed. He won the ball on many occasions when, both Scholes and Anderson struggled to win balls, and he linked the play up to them two very well. I think that people can jump to conclusions on a player when quite clearly, they don't have much of an understanding for the tactical elements of a players game.
Fantastic post
 
ssshh let the self deception continue. A fantastic result away from home against the champions of France. all is well.
Giggs actually put Rooney through on goal. Something you and Mozza missed amongst other things. But don't let such facts stop you and Mozza from claiming Rooney did that all by himself. Or that we were very poor
 
I don't constantly bash Hargreaves, after last year against Milan I was crying out for him or his ilk, but I just don't think he's very good at the advertised job.. . and I'm aware of what it is thanks.
You're clearly don't. That is why you think he was some how at fault for us conceeding Benzama's wonder goal.
 
was giving juninho a couple of nice free kicks on goal really the best way to shackle him? I know there is more to his role than that but I really couldn't see his worth...Because you clearly don't understand his role unfortunately. That's why

Even defensively I think Carrick offers more. When Lyon attacks were repelled by the centre backs Hargreaves was too deep to pick up the 2nd ball, Carrick marks space very well and doesn't have to make as many tackles as he breaks up play with brain more than braun. ...Yep just like he did vs Copenhagen, Celtic, Lille and Milan way last season. Not to mention Celtic, Copenhagen and Milan at home. We never conceceded many silly goals in those games due to inadequate shielding in central midfield. So much better at defending this Carrick is

Even if Hargreaves was impeccable defensively I don't feel that's enough for a Manchester United central midfielder.....Hargreaves is more than just good defensively. But people like you will never fathom this, I'm afraid. Since you ahve this inane idea that people who play his role should play like Carrick. Which is naive to say the least. After all, Carrick is so obviously ill equpped for the role
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Laiugh all you want. He was suurounded by several Uniedt players and picked out a corner of our goal after one perfect touch touch. Out of a harmless move
A good or a well taken goal. A wonder goal on the other hand is a different story though.
I understand you like Benzema, but we all should stay on the ground, as if he doesnt join us, he'll turn suddenly crap in here
 
A good or a well taken goal. A wonder goal on the other hand is a different story though.
I understand you like Benzema, but we all should stay on the ground, as if he doesnt join us, he'll turn suddenly crap in here
Mate if a Ruud has scored people would be drooling over it. I'm just given credit where it's due. Besides, whether we sign him or not will not matter that much to me to be honest. Next season we should have a fantastic crop of strikers with Campbell, Manucho and Wellbeck challneging for places. Especially if we perhaps keep Saha too..meaning signing a Benzama would simply be a nice option. But little else
 
A good or a well taken goal. A wonder goal on the other hand is a different story though.
I understand you like Benzema, but we all should stay on the ground, as if he doesnt join us, he'll turn suddenly crap in here

I have to agree with Red Indian on this one. A wonder goal doesn't have to necessarily be something that requires a 45 yard thunderbolt into the top corner or a mazy run past 5 players. I think the fact that Benzema had three United players around him and showed the confidence and ability to smack a shot on his weaker foot into the bottom corner with power is sufficient enough to label it worthy of such. If anything, it was almost Ronaldo-esque in it's delivery. This is coming from a man who isn't raving about Benzema too (see Transfer thread on him to see my opinions on that issue)
 
Mate if a Ruud has scored people would be drooling over it. I'm just given credit where it's due. Besides, whether we sign him or not will not matter that much to me to be honest. Next season we should have a fantastic crop of strikers with Campbell, Manucho and Wellbeck challneging for places. Especially if we perhaps keep Saha too..meaning signing a Benzama would simply be a nice option. But little else

Dont know what they did when Ruud scored, but I doubt he has scored many goals labelled as wondergoals. And that goal yesterday isnt a wondergoal. He had a bit of space, turned and hit it well. Not a wondergoal in my book.

I would be glad if we would sign him, as he's a great talent. But seems very unlikely to me
 
Bulshit. Juninho IS good. Teams like REAL have had night mares due to him. Hargreaves is the one who shut him off. It isn't hard to grasp. Just like it isn't hard to grasp that Carrick who couldn't a mere FC Compenhagen CM was nevr going to be that effective vs a Juninho.

Juninho was played far too deep for Lyon. He just had a pretty ineffective game in all honesty. I wouldn't say this was down to a terrier like performance from Hargreaves. I also wouldn't place Juninho in the bracket of top players in Europe. There is a reason he is still at Lyon whilst his counterparts of recent years have moved onto bigger and better things. I find it laughable that you say that the whole midfield was poor against Copenhagen, yet then still blame Carrick. I think our improved away form in the competition lately can be put down to the team maturing.

We had 5 clear chances. 2 Rooney wasted. One was saved from Carrick shot. the other two were scored by Tevez. On disallowed, one allowed. If you were expecting chances galore like we were at home you are really naive.

Wasn't expected "chances galore" as you say. Because we played 4-5-1. Look at the way Barcelona set up in the cauldron of Celtic Park. We have similarly gifted players, so why not go out and attack our opponents in Europe. Or if we are going to play a holding midfielder, lets have one with some quality on the ball (Yaya Toure). Is it a coincidence that most of our best attacking play coincided with Nani, Tevez and Carrick being on the pitch and Hargreaves being off?

You don't get numerous chances in Europe away from home vs quality opposition.

...
 
Give him a chance for god's sake............he is a brilliant player and I am sure he will be our next keane soon.................

get a grip. no one thinks that.

We all know that, what was the point of this thread? :confused:

agree. im not sure the guy was being serious and yet here we are 350 pages on
 
the idea that a player is only good for certain games has never been and never should be the manchester utd way. He's either a utd player or he's not.

e.g. had we signed essien he would be able to play either role in accordance with whats needed with regard to the opposition. ala keane. attacking or defending. bigger (well equal) teams or smaller.

if and im not saying it is, but if hargreaves has to be brought in and out the side depending who we are playing he was the wrong signing at that price.

My favourite post on the matter (ala plech). Sums up my thoughts on the matter
 
To the person who mentioned that price tag should not be played up. I couldn't agree any more!

Price tag should be irrelevent, unless, it is a signing that is meant to make an instant impact. It just puts too much pressure on players to perform and more often than not defeats them on a psychological level.
This is vitally important when we look at young players like Nani and Anderson who cost a fortune, and Hargreaves, who needs a run in the side consistenly as well as time to adapt to the United side properly. If you remember, Hargreaves played for a slow playing Bayern side so the change in tempo and pace is a huge thing for him.

There are a few places that I would like to see him improve his game. He does play a lot of square balls and sometimes he can be quite negative in terms of his midfield distribution, however, Hargreaves does know his limits in terms of what he can do on the ball and I would much rather than "Hargo" kept it simple, rather than being a player like Nicky Butt who often seemed to think he was capable of Scholes-esque balls when he wasn't.

Hargreaves has been assigned to provide us something that none of the other midfielders can do at United. Last night was a case in point, in terms of nullifying players with raw pace and power. He did a splendid job on Benzema whenever he would drop back into the midfield to link up the play. He did a good job tracking and attempting to make the very dangerous Govou, ineffectual. The fact that we had two other central midfielders playing just goes to show that the majority of the forward distribution and creativity was the job of both Anderson and Scholes, and any lack of should be pointed at those two instead of Hargreaves.

What Hargreaves did well in that game, also went unnoticed. He won the ball on many occasions when, both Scholes and Anderson struggled to win balls, and he linked the play up to them two very well. I think that people can jump to conclusions on a player when quite clearly, they don't have much of an understanding for the tactical elements of a players game.

Fantastic post. Totally agree with everything there.
 
Juninho was played far too deep for Lyon. He just had a pretty ineffective game in all honesty. I wouldn't say this was down to a terrier like performance from Hargreaves....That's because you cant bring yourself to admit you are wrong

I also wouldn't place Juninho in the bracket of top players in Europe. There is a reason he is still at Lyon whilst his counterparts of recent years have moved onto bigger and better things.....That's just silly. Juninho doesn't play in a position where there is a dearth of player. Most top teams have playmakers. Players like Diarra, Essien and Abidal are much harder to find.


I find it laughable that you say that the whole midfield was poor against Copenhagen, yet then still blame Carrick.......No wonder you prefer to blame Hargreaves in a match in which our midfield was good and dominant and he played well.


I think our improved away form in the competition lately can be put down to the team maturing........Bullshit


Wasn't expected "chances galore" as you say. Because we played 4-5-1. Look at the way Barcelona set up in the cauldron of Celtic Park. . We have similarly gifted players, so why not go out and attack our opponents in Europe. Or if we are going to play a holding midfielder, lets have one with some quality on the ball (Yaya Toure). Is it a coincidence that most of our best attacking play coincided with Nani, Tevez and Carrick being on the pitch and Hargreaves being off?......No. But it obviously escaped you that Giggs and Scholes were removed, Lyon were siting mroe deep, so it made sense to bring on h attck minded Carrcik, and the addition of Tevez finally gave us someone who didn't waste chances ala Rooney. As shown by his scoring his two chances. One being dissallowed and the other being the equaliser

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He made a good point about Essien, who can do everything Hargreaves can do but better.

I'm all for supporting our boys, but some people who say "he did alright" or "he had a good game", are imo suspect for lacking ambition because Hargreaves was brought in with much higher expectation than just to do alright. I mean I get the idea of defending our boys, I defended Dong and still do sometimes, I said he had a few good touches against Chelsea last season. But Hargreaves is no Dong.

I want to see a DM who can dominate that midfield and allow our creative mids to push forward a bit. Anderson was only half the player he was vs Arsenal because he had to track back and help defend. Lyon's midfield deserves credit but they are hardly world beaters are they. I guess my main concern is that if we face Milan again, will Hargreaves be enough to see us through this time.
 
Like he did last season vs the likes of Bodmer, Makoun, the Celtic CM's and the might Copenhagen central midfield away from home in Europe last season.

Just like Hargreaves coped with the combined might of Mark Noble and Hayden Mullins. Oh and we beat Lille away from home last season keeping a clean sheet in the process. Why don't you tell us again how Hargreaves has been the reason for our imporved away form in the Champions League this season?
 
or rather instead of retyping the same thing every hargreaves thread that pops up every day i can just re post something that is perfectly valid.

Think about it chief....you'll understand one day how logic works.
I know logic very well. It dictates that self promotion is a fools game. Feel free to keep playing it.
 
Just like Hargreaves coped with the combined might of Mark Noble and Hayden Mullins.
Like Carrick faired any better vs Mullins and Reo Coeker last season. We lost home and away to them.

Oh and we beat Lille away from home last season keeping a clean sheet in the process.
After being totally dominated in midfield, depending on the brillance of our back 5 to stave of defat and stealing a win due to Giggs' brilliance. Carrick must have been awesome that day.:rolleyes:

Yet last night, in comparison, we were dorminant through out and were unlucky to eventually end up with a. Yet you and your cronies want everyone to believe Hargreaves did nothing:wenger:

Why don't you tell us again how Hargreaves has been the reason for our imporved away form in the Champions League this season?
Why dont you first tell us again how Carrick is a fantastic shield for our defence. When even Spurs improved dramatically after he left. Not forgetting our shit form away from home in Europe.
 
Dont know what they did when Ruud scored, but I doubt he has scored many goals labelled as wondergoals. And that goal yesterday isnt a wondergoal. He had a bit of space, turned and hit it well. Not a wondergoal in my book.

I would be glad if we would sign him, as he's a great talent. But seems very unlikely to me
Fair enough
 
Like Carrick faired any better vs Mullins and Reo Coeker last season. We lost home and away to them.
So you admit Hargreaves has faired no better. Well done.

After being totally dominated in midfield, depending on eth brillance of our abck 5 to stave of defat and stealing a win due to Giggs' brilliance. Carrick must have been awesome that day.:rolleyes:Didn't say he was. Again I would put more blame on playing a system that is alien to our players rather than Carrick.

Yet last night, in comparison, we were dorminant through out and were unlucky to eventually end up with a. Yet you and your cronies want everyone to believe Hargreaves did nothing:wenger:He did nothing. We dominated the midfield because of Scholes and Giggs in the first half and because Lyon surrendered it in the seco0nd after taking the lead. we were still losing 1-0 when Hargreaves came off.

Why dont you frist tell us again how Carrick is a fantastic shield for our defence. When even Spurs improved dramatically after he leftDramatically? What utter nonsense. Spurs have started to imporve over a year and a half later due to a new manager who is a lot more dicsiplined than the previous incumbent. Not sure of the exact stats regarding Spurs pre Carrick and post Carrick. If I can get them I'll post them.

So anyway, tell us about how Hargreaves has instantly improved our European form this season. Including in the six group games were he played a sum total of 15 minutes.
 
I know logic very well. It dictates that self promotion is a fools game. Feel free to keep playing it.

sell promoting? by quoting a previous posts that sums up my stance on the situation better than i could put it again??? :lol:

why do it to yourself chief. just when im starting to think you're sane you start going off the rails again. Chief take a step back, engage your brain and chill out.
 
Hargreaves had a decent game last night, that much is obvious.
 
The league table in Carrick's last season at Tottenham. Goals against 38.

Pos Club Pld W D L F A GD Pts Comments
1 Chelsea 38 29 4 5 72 22 +50 91 Champions League Group Stage
2 Manchester United 38 25 8 5 72 34 +38 83
3 Liverpool 38 25 7 6 57 25 +32 82 Champions League 3rd Qualifying Round
4 Arsenal 38 20 7 11 68 31 +37 67
5 Tottenham Hotspur 38 18 11 9 53 38 +15 65 UEFA Cup 1st Round

The league table in the season after Carrick's departure. Goals against 54.

Pos Club Pld W D L F A GD Pts Comments
1 Manchester United (C) 38 28 5 5 83 27 +56 89 Champions League
Group Stage
2 Chelsea 38 24 11 3 64 24 +40 83
3 Liverpool 38 20 8 10 57 27 +30 68 Champions League
3rd Qualifying Round
4 Arsenal 38 19 11 8 63 35 +28 68
5 Tottenham Hotspur 38 17 9 12 57 54 +3 60

The current league table. Goals Spurs against 41

Team P W D L F A W D L F A GD PTS
1 Arsenal 26 12 2 0 31 8 7 4 1 23 10 36 63
2 Man Utd 26 12 1 1 32 5 6 3 3 18 9 36 58
3 Chelsea 26 8 5 0 23 8 8 2 3 15 9 21 55
4 Everton 26 8 2 3 24 11 6 3 4 17 12 18 47

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

5 Liverpool 25 5 6 1 26 9 6 5 2 14 8 23 44
6 Aston Villa 26 8 2 4 24 17 4 6 2 24 17 14 44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

7 Man City 26 9 3 1 21 11 3 5 5 13 18 5 44
8 Portsmouth 26 3 7 2 15 10 8 1 5 21 16 10 41
9 Blackburn 26 5 4 4 13 13 5 5 3 19 20 -1 39
10 West Ham 25 5 5 3 16 13 5 2 5 14 10 7 37
11 Tottenham 26 6 2 4 33 22 2 6 6 15 19 7 32

You may also note that our defense has improved in the same timeline. Spurs improved dramatically indeed. Your stupidest in a long line of stupid posts.
 
Why dont you first tell us again how Carrick is a fantastic shield for our defence. When even Spurs improved dramatically after he left. Not forgetting our shit form away from home in Europe.

Oh and our away form has been shit in Europe for as long as I've been following the club. The one exception being the treble season when we played our natural game. Coincidence?
 
The league table in Carrick's last season at Tottenham. Goals against 38.

Pos Club Pld W D L F A GD Pts Comments
1 Chelsea 38 29 4 5 72 22 +50 91 Champions League Group Stage
2 Manchester United 38 25 8 5 72 34 +38 83
3 Liverpool 38 25 7 6 57 25 +32 82 Champions League 3rd Qualifying Round
4 Arsenal 38 20 7 11 68 31 +37 67
5 Tottenham Hotspur 38 18 11 9 53 38 +15 65 UEFA Cup 1st Round

The league table in the season after Carrick's departure. Goals against 54.

Pos Club Pld W D L F A GD Pts Comments
1 Manchester United (C) 38 28 5 5 83 27 +56 89 Champions League
Group Stage
2 Chelsea 38 24 11 3 64 24 +40 83
3 Liverpool 38 20 8 10 57 27 +30 68 Champions League
3rd Qualifying Round
4 Arsenal 38 19 11 8 63 35 +28 68
5 Tottenham Hotspur 38 17 9 12 57 54 +3 60

The current league table. Goals Spurs against 41

Team P W D L F A W D L F A GD PTS
1 Arsenal 26 12 2 0 31 8 7 4 1 23 10 36 63
2 Man Utd 26 12 1 1 32 5 6 3 3 18 9 36 58
3 Chelsea 26 8 5 0 23 8 8 2 3 15 9 21 55
4 Everton 26 8 2 3 24 11 6 3 4 17 12 18 47

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

5 Liverpool 25 5 6 1 26 9 6 5 2 14 8 23 44
6 Aston Villa 26 8 2 4 24 17 4 6 2 24 17 14 44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

7 Man City 26 9 3 1 21 11 3 5 5 13 18 5 44
8 Portsmouth 26 3 7 2 15 10 8 1 5 21 16 10 41
9 Blackburn 26 5 4 4 13 13 5 5 3 19 20 -1 39
10 West Ham 25 5 5 3 16 13 5 2 5 14 10 7 37
11 Tottenham 26 6 2 4 33 22 2 6 6 15 19 7 32

You may also note that our defense has improved in the same timeline. Spurs improved dramatically indeed. Your stupidest in a long line of stupid posts.
Spurs finished 5th in Carrick's last season, got out of all cups and didn't get a in a single point off a single big team. With Carrick at the heart of their midfield.

With him gone they still finished 5th, got much further in the FA and Carling cups plus to the semi finals of a European competiton on top of beating Chelsea, a thing they failed to achieve in all Carrick's years there.

On top the fact that even with Vidic and Evra settling into their frist season, and our awfull injury list, we finished second pre-Carrick's arrival with a good record against big teams.


After Carrick's arrival, Vidic and Evra we're settled into one of the best back fours in the league. An obvious reason for our marked imprroment in defence. Which along side Scholes and Giggs return to form + Ronaldo's coming of age contributed to our winning the league.

In this time too we lost to Arsenal twice, couldn't beat Chelsea once in the league, lost to sides like Bolton home and away and drew with the likes of Newcatsle Not to mention our shit away from in europe, the many goals we conceded at home in Europe and the San Siro humiliation all with Carrick present.


But don't let these indisputable facts get in the way of you talking BS about Carrick, bashing Hargreaves and telling me how stupid my posts are.
 
Spurs finshed 5th in Carrick's last season, got out of all cups and didn't get a in a single point off a single big team. With Carrick at the heart of their midfield.

With him gone they still finished 5, got far in the FA and Carling club plus to the semi finals of a European competiton on top of beating Chelsea, a thing they failed in all Carrick's years there.

On top the fact that even with Vidic and Evra settling into their frist seaosn, and our awfull injury list, we finshed second pre-Carrick's arrival with a good record against big teams.

After Carrick's arrival, Vidic and Evra we're settled into one of the best back fours in the league. An obvious reason for our marked imprroment in defence. Which along side Scholes and Giggs return to form + Roanldo's coming of age contributed to our winning the league.

In this time too we lost to Arsenal twice, couldn't beat Chelsea once in the league, lost to sides like Bolton home and away and drew with the likes of Newcatsle Not to mention our shit away from in europe, the many goals we concceed at home in Europe and the San Siro hummliation all with Carrick present.


But don't let these indisputable facts get in the way of you talking BS about Carrick, bashing Hargreaves and telling me how stupid my posts are.

We won the league and Spurs who's defense supposedly imporoved dramatically after Carrick left actually got worse. That was the point you were making, not there negligable cup 'success'.

We have also beat both Chelsea and Arsenal this season with Carrick instrumental in both. We haven't lost home and away to Bolton either. But it wouldn't be the first time you've made something up to try and prove one of your points would it? So, tell us how our vastly improved form in Europe this year is due to Hargeaves.
 
Not to mention our shit away from in europe,

Number of wins away from home in Europe in the two season pre Carrick 0. Number of wins away from home in Europe with Carrick in the team in the past season and a half 3. That's an improvement in my mind. Still not good enough though but more to do with our tactics in my opinon than anything else.
 
sell promoting? by quoting a previous posts that sums up my stance on the situation better than i could put it again??? :lol:[
Yes. Claiming its your favorite post in the entire thread is shameless and over the top to say the least. But you never accept when your wrong anyway. So nothing new on that front

why do it to yourself chief. just when im starting to think you're sane you start going off the rails again. Chief take a step back, engage your brain and chill out.
They day I'm declared insane and commited is the day they will make you king of the world and rigth about what you've done in this thread. Till then you have only your dreams.
 
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