Henderson is a hit but Fletcher not?? Ok then!
Hannibal Mejbri - Manchester United Player
- Thread starter IrishRedDevil
- Start date
Raphael doesn't deserve to be in the bottom lot!Henderson is a hit but Fletcher not?? Ok then!
Neither do Gibson, Cleverly or Welbeck.
If an academy lad adequately fills a role in the squad (or better) and plays a part in winning sides I think it's fair to say that they had a decent career here, even if they didn't reach the heights they might have.
He's nothing like Angel.
Shola is 1.75 now (approx), has a good frame. He's taller and bigger than Amad.
Physicality won't be a problem for him in the future.
Spoken like a man who has barely watched him play this season and clearly never watched him play last year at all.
Yeah, I’ve already said that I was wrong with Angel comparison. Still, I haven’t said that he’ll have issues with it in the future (he has just turned 17 ffs), but he’s not really ready for adult football at the moment. In my opinion, of course.
I watch most Dortmund games.
Calm down he’s talking about Hannibals potential....not Pogbas
Absolutely, McTominay fully deserves it, takes his chances with both hands. He's not a top tier talent though for me and I'd be surprised if he's still one of our first choice midfielders by the time he's 30. I won't be upset if he is though.
It could be 5 years or more before Mejbri is ready to be first choice though, in the meantime all he needs to do is get enough game time to keep improving and stake his claim. And he's quite versatile so I think he will personally as long as he keeps grafting.
Then I don't know how you can be of the opinion that he's 'relegation Championship level'.
I watch a fair amount of Dortmund too as they have always been one of my favourite sides to watch. I also saw a good amount of this lad last season because my team was playing the same division. Always thought his ball-playing ability was remarkably average to be honest, but he can carry it pretty well, picks up good positions and statistically has always played a part in creating chances. He is a lot better defensively than people like to give him credit for too, particularly his pressing.
Yeah he's probably been told he will get games, but if he was genuinely the level you say he is, he wouldn't be playing this regularly. Especially when you consider the up-and-down season Dortmund have had, Favre's job was on the line and he still trusted this kid with minutes.
And may I remind you the guy is 17. We can talk about Mejbri all we want but until he is able to show he can step-up to senior level, there really is no comparison here. Bellingham is 6 months younger and has played 70+ games with the first team, including a lot in a top 4 league in the world and the Champions League, and has already made his international debut for a top 10 side in the world. Mejbri meanwhile still hasn't played a game of football against grown men.
Last edited:
If this kid can show his potential at first team level, then I have no doubt he'll be a better option than some, due to the kids undoubted natural talent.
Also if it takes him 5 years to unsurp someone like McTominay from the team as someone alluded to earlier, then I believe he will have failed to live upto his potential, which IMO is far superior than McTominay's and you can include Fred in that too.
Also if it takes him 5 years to unsurp someone like McTominay from the team as someone alluded to earlier, then I believe he will have failed to live upto his potential, which IMO is far superior than McTominay's and you can include Fred in that too.
Henderson is a hit but Fletcher not?? Ok then!
If you read again, there's a question mark for Hendersen, which means potentially he could be a hit but he hasn't accomplished anything yet.
Fletcher would have been a hit if he did not have the illness which end his career prematurely.
Shoretire’s quite stocky too, relatively speaking. He’ll probably one of those players who’re impossible to get the ball off in a few years time.
That's why he reminded me of Tevez a little when I first saw him for U-18's...
Can see that actually.
He's played the four EFL Trophy games this season v senior opposition. So he has played a few games against grown men.
But, yeah, he hasn't played a senior league game and is obviously far less experienced than Bellingham.
A few thoughts on this.
Overall you make some decent calls and I agree you can never tell. I've been watching youth football since 1979 and I've got things wrong many more times than right. There have really only been 4/5 dead certs in my time.
In terms of the players in each category I see things differently.
Firstly, the players from 1992 only Giggs and Butt were hyped. The other players were all virtually unknowns outside of the club and didn't show anything exceptional at youth level...or there were major questions marks. It was all potential. Remember, Robbie Savage kept Beckham out of that team on many occasions. I would also throw in John O'Kane...he was also really rated and one of the best from that team...but other factors got in the way.
Secondly, I can't remember either Rashford or Henderson being hyped at all. Rashford wasn't a prolific goal scorer at youth level in comparison to others. In fact, Devonte Redmond was the one being hyped from that group. Everyone used to say he had the 'x factor'.
Fletcher and Brown were massively rated as youth players. That's why Fergie tried playing Fletcher in a league game when he was 15 and Wes Brown was part of the senior squad at 18. And they definitely were 'hits' as you describe it.
In the bottom group, Cleverley was never hyped...he was a real surprise to virtually everyone. He was playing fullback at youth level. Rafael and Fabio didn't come through our youth system and didn't play in our Academy. Most of the others are fair calls and failed to make the grade for a range of reasons.
It's an interesting way of looking at past players and as always everyone will have different opinions.
Do you mind sharing?)
That's my picture too. Also, Demetri Mitchell was highly rated, more so than Henderson and Rashford. Marcus was seen as a good player, but I'm not sure that Henderson even was that (according to our fans). He certainly has been impressive in his development. I would say Henderson is very much like McTominay, some elite mentality there. I never thought Rashford would make the impact that he did and are you sure the coaching staff did? Because his introduction seems very random and much because of the injury crisis rather than "let's give him a shot", I guess we have to give much credit to LvG for that, he wasn't afraid to throw in youngsters without really knowing much about them. It didn't come to anything with Riley or Varela, but with Rashford. Wow.
If I remember correctly, all three mentioned as lacking hype had quite large growth spurts after getting to u18s level. McTominay famously, Rashford definitely, and my recollection was that Henderson was undersized for a goalkeeper at u18s (certainly compared to some of the monsters you see in goals at u18s level these days).
That said, Rashford was very hyped until u18s because Ravel Morrison's agent said he was the most technically gifted player in the academy. He was slow to adapt to u18s and had a growth spurt over the summer and then was moved to centre forward where he started scoring and was building a good reputation with the Youth football watchers and he was plucked into the first team due to the injury crisis.
Henderson was a nominee for the Jimmy Murphy Young Player of the Year award so his efforts were somewhat appreciated. He didn't mess around with much football at the club so has been out on loan everywhere since which was obviously the right shout for him and speaks highly of his mental fortitude at a young age.
McTominay was one of those players who kick around in the academy that are good technically and have a great mentally, but lack physicality - there have been a lot over the years. He went from 5'5" to over 6' without the related injuries that sometime occur and he got more game time after and has really flourished.
It depends how you draw the line between "hit" and "decent". Surely both Fletcher and Brown were good player, for Brown case despite being massively rated, his career didn't quite end up as good as his hype as "England most talented defender", he was never really first choice key defender for us, maybe he has 1 or 2 very good season, but it didn't last long enough, as back then we have well established back four of Evra Rio Vidic Neville, he was more like a squad player or backup for us. For Fletcher case, its similar, he was very hyped as a youngster, I was kind of expecting him to carry our midfield in future in similar way Carrick does for us, but most often his Man Utd career was more remembered as a useful squad player rather than key player for us, and just when he was about to established himself as key midfielder for us, his career with us end prematurely with some serious illness unfortuntely. For me, both of them could have done more for us, but didn't go as far as they were hyped, but neverthelss still end up having decent career with us.
Cleverley was not hyped as a youngster, but at one point he was hyped when he became our first choice midfielder. Maybe he created his own hyped, but Fergie did trust him enough to give him many starts at one point.
Last edited:
Whiteside, Giggs, Butt, Brown, Fletcher...and I'd probably add Greenwood to that list.
All the others had doubts for one reason or another.
From the last few most recent U23 game highlight videos, I think Shola is at least 180cm now and physically strong. I just hope he manages his daily diet well so that his body shape will not develop to be oversized, like Watford’s Deeney.
So what you’re saying is he looks like he’s playing at a much higher level than 99% of players his age?
Makes sense.
In 2008/09 Fletcher was equal with Carrick in terms of total number of starts for a CM
In 2009/10 Fletcher made more starts than anyone else
In 2010/11 Fletcher was second only to Carrick
So for three seasons, when we were at our peak...he was an integral part of that team.
Given that, I would argue that he was much more than a decent squad player. At least as far as Alex Ferguson was concerned.
But it's all about opinions....that's football.
Been following our youth since the mid 90's
Scholes - amazing up top with Dion Dublin in the reserves. Excellent finisher and intelligent passer. Our Cantona for the reserves
Curtis - Captain material. Lilleshaw graduate
Brown - Another Lilleshaw graduate in Michael Owen's year
Fletcher - Because after a couple of reserve games at 15yrs old Fergie wanted to give his debut in the final PL game of 99/00 season.
Pogba - Physically and technically had it all
Morrison - Made football look so easy. Iniesta-like
Greenwood - Best finisher i've seen to come out of the academy. Exceptional finisher
were the only dead certs for me.
Scholes - amazing up top with Dion Dublin in the reserves. Excellent finisher and intelligent passer. Our Cantona for the reserves
Curtis - Captain material. Lilleshaw graduate
Brown - Another Lilleshaw graduate in Michael Owen's year
Fletcher - Because after a couple of reserve games at 15yrs old Fergie wanted to give his debut in the final PL game of 99/00 season.
Pogba - Physically and technically had it all
Morrison - Made football look so easy. Iniesta-like
Greenwood - Best finisher i've seen to come out of the academy. Exceptional finisher
were the only dead certs for me.
Having many start for 2-3 years is one thing, but has he ever made similar impact as Carrick in midfield for us though? (there has been some years where Carrick has been carrying us in midfield). Don't get me wrong he has been a very good squad player for us all these years, but those in my "hit" list, really has done more than just 2-3 years as first choice team player for us (with exception of Greenwood and Henderson, who are still big question mark for me). Those in my "hit" list should be integral part of the team, and should live up as good as their hype and fulfilling their early promise. Its just depends how you draw the line. Surely you can also argue that half of players from "decent" list should move to your "hit" list too, if you lower the entry standard. But I just set my line higher, and they barely couldn't make it to my "hit" list.
Last edited:
I think sheer luck and a professional mentality are the always the unseen differential. Injuries in the first team is pure luck. The prospect staying injury free is luck. Every day is just staying professional and fit and ready to grab your big chances with both hands. if you’ve got a player with a solid mentality and a good work ethic who comes in and hits the ground running then they are in. Simple enough but most of the players thrown in for this reason don’t hit the ground running or don’t get the chance and need loans and then eventually fade away down the pyramid.
Fletcher was getting better and more important all the time. He obviously had great technique and was a model pro. It’s a pity about his condition.
Lot's to agree with.
I was never sure of some of these...
Scholes - a year behind everyone else because of asthma and size (overcame those issues to be one of the greatest)
Curtis - brilliant at youth level but looked less so in reserves (proved a step too far)
Pogba - brilliant one day, average the next, missing in the third game. Terribly inconsistent (I think he is still like this)
Morrison - only his off the field issues stood in the way. (Shame it came true)
Morrison is easily the most gifted footballer I've seen at youth level since Ryan Giggs.
Others on the fence were Coyne (application?), Duxbury (creativity?) Hughes (goalscoring?), Ritchie (pace?), Platt (pathway?), Doherty (injury prone?), Neville (pace/height), Richardson (attitude?), Rossi (physicality?), Welbeck (consistency?), Lingard (size?), Januzaj (attitude?)
Most went on to do ok...but I never saw them as certs.
And then there are some players that just surprise you like Blackmore, Beckham, O'Shea, McTominay and you just didn't see it coming at all.
I seem to remember there being fierce hype around Ronnie Wallwork around 1997 (?), remember chatting to someone who claimed he was an absolute certainty to make it as a long-term United CB. Any thoughts?
I got it totally wrong with Curtis. There was so much hype back in the day, he just never developed how we hoped.
Morrison, ah what could've been shame really.
I love the suprise ones.
I don’t think there was much between Carrick and Fletcher. Carrick had one really good season. So did fletcher. Other than that they were good but not great players.
He was a good player but I never thought overly special at the time...
Pretty sure Gillespie and Thornley were massively rated in the early to mid 90s youth/reserve class. One was swapped for Cole and the other suffered a horrendous leg break that ultimately stopped his progression. Some of the Fledglings have stated Thornley would have been the best of the lot.
Another that suffered a horrendous injury that stunted his development was Ben Collett. Have read the likes of Keane and Scholes, think it was, said that kid was gonna be a first team player at some point.
Many of us on the Caf were highly impressed with Ritchie Jones as well.
Another that suffered a horrendous injury that stunted his development was Ben Collett. Have read the likes of Keane and Scholes, think it was, said that kid was gonna be a first team player at some point.
Many of us on the Caf were highly impressed with Ritchie Jones as well.
Well I disagree. Carrick has been integral part of our first team for longer period, and at one point he was also worldclass player for us, carrying our midfield. Fletcher never really has that, although he has been very good for a while. He could have been better for longer if not for illness.
Carrick
- 474 appearance for us
- 9-10 seasons playing a lot of games in first team (making around 40+ appearance), 1 season injured for half season and played around 20 games, 1 season playing bit part role as he was retiring
- 1-2 season in worldclass form carrying our midfield
- at least 5-6 seasons playing important role in first team
- ever since Keane has retired, Carrick has been bought as our 2nd choice midfielder pairing up with Scholes for many years. Ever since Scholes has retired he has become key man in our midfield, carrying us for a while.
Fletcher
- 342 appearance for us
- 4-5 seasons playing a lot of games in first team (making around 40+ appearance), 3-4 season playing as backup/squad rotation, 4 season playing bit part role due to illness/fitness issue
- never in worldclass form, but he has been in top form for a year or 2.
- around 2-3 years playing important role in first team
- For first half of his career with us, he has been used as backup for Beckham, Scholes, Keane and then later more as squad rotation for/with Scholes-Carrick partnership. Ever since Scholes has retired he then start to form reliable midfield partnership Carrick. Unfortunately his appearance and role in the team has been limited by illness in his last several seasons with us, playing only bit part role.
Last edited:
Fletcher became a talisman for us a couple of seasons. His form in 09 was as good as any season of Carricks. Neither were close to world class though and our midfield was the weakest part of our team in that period. We had world class players in every other department and a collection of good midfielders. We struggled against teams with good midfields but our forward line and defence was as good as anything.
Two good players. Neither great. Both had a great season. Nothing in it.
Yeah Thornley was some talent who could play both wings well. Would've developed alot further than he did if he didnt get his knee done in.
I remember being gutted that Gillespie went the other way in the Jan '95 Andy Cole deal. I really rated him at the time. Six months later when Kanchelskis was sold that summer Fergie tried to buy him back!
Ritchie Jones was a good passer of the ball but never really stood out as exceptional or anything to me.
Carrick's average over his time with us was miles better. Fletcher had a great 18 months that you could argue was at a similar level as Carrick at his best, but outside of that period Carrick was always better and for most of it it wasn't even close.