This is what Scientology must be like.
Guardiola vs. Mourinho
- Thread starter Sky1981
- Start date
It is one thing to have great players in the squad, it is another thing to create a great TEAM with those players. It is a long way from having a collection of great players to creaing a great team. Collections of great players do not amount to great teams.
Jose vs pep mkii
Fight!
Fight!
I hope they headbutt each other like rams.
Guardiola has always had JM's measure, but that was in Spain. Now he's in England which is obviously a league that JM is comfortable in, which makes things interesting from a rivalry point of view.
I wonder if they'll ever run in to each other at the supermarket?
I wonder if they'll ever run in to each other at the supermarket?
In the two years that they both managed in Spain at the same time didn't they both win a League and Cup each?
Not sure what their actual head to head record was in matches, but at that time Barca had probably the best club side and player ever so i don't know how much you can look into it.
He definitely didn't have Mourinho's measure when Inter met Barca. Mourinho tactics were perfect, and it pretty much became the blueprint on how to beat tiki taka.
Id rather have Mourinho and ive said that all along. For the first time in his career Pep isnt walking into a ready made winning machine and how he handles that is a bigger unknown than Mourinho. He will either make or break his reputation at City.
Mourinho has a much more varied CV and is a more adaptable coach, even if he cant quite reach the levels Guardiola can when all the conditions are perfect.
Mourinho has a much more varied CV and is a more adaptable coach, even if he cant quite reach the levels Guardiola can when all the conditions are perfect.
Pep has an aging citu side, a non tiki taka structure, the english press on his back ready to gnaw on jose vs mou stories, a physical epl that is so much different than the rest of the league, 2 mickey mouse cup means more congested games, 8 teams that can trouble you on paper?
Dont know about the spanish press,but in spain i assume he's their wonderboy good guy and mourinho is the bad ugly Portuguese?
Mourinho is playing at home this time. We shall see, it'll be interesting
Dont know about the spanish press,but in spain i assume he's their wonderboy good guy and mourinho is the bad ugly Portuguese?
Mourinho is playing at home this time. We shall see, it'll be interesting
Barca finished 3rd the season before he was appointed, with 18 points gap between them and the first place. Not sure if this qualifies as a ready made winning machine, really
Managers and players are more pressured from the fans and media in Spain (or even Italy) than in England. The English media aren't a problem at all.
What is a problem though, is his City team. It is hard to make a manager uncomfortable when he always wins (like Pep did), but that isn't going to happen with City. It will be interesting.
Amazing how often this gets overlooked. Even Pellegrini's Villarreal side finished 10 points ahead of Barca that season. I appreciate that he took on a Bayern side at the absolute top of their game but he had a lot of tweaking to do at Barca plus he introduced a revolutionary new style of football.
The challenge at City will be a different one altogether - the squad needs freshening up and it's the most competitive league in world football, even more so from next season with the new TV deal coming in and clubs will be splashing the cash more than ever. It will be his toughest job so far but he'll have the financial backing plus I'm looking forward to seeing who he promotes from our academy. He had a good record with Barca's academy players and even promoted a few from Bayern's which was a little surprising as their academy isn't particularly strong - City notched up a couple of 6-0 drubbings over Bayern's youth team in the UEFA Youth League over the past few seasons and I think they bombed again in that competition last season when they were drawn in Arsenal's group.
Hiddink did it first.
Xavi and Iniesta improved.
More importantly Messi was over his injury problems. People are forgetting that before Pep arrived that Messi was quite injury prone.
He deserves credit of course. But we seen Aragones and Del Bosque be successful with the spine of that team and that was without Messi!
You can't compare club and international sides. The spine was the same but everything else is different - opponents, competitions, regularity of matches...
The two seasons before marked a change in Barcelona's key personnel. It was the end of the previous era and the emergence of Messi, Xavi and Iniesta as world beaters. Pep just happened to be there at the right time to capitalise on it.
I have been ranting this point out for years now.
Mourinho has achieved more, and challenged himself more. Pep had the luxury of one of the best club sides in history at Barca, with arguably the GOAT player too. He moved to Bayern which was arguably the easiest job he could have taken amongst big clubs, in a very uncompetitive environment where they could basically sign their main rivals best players every year.
City will be more of a challenge and in a more challenging league now, and it will be interesting to see how Pep does. That said, he basically has a blank cheque to do what he wants, and if he does win the league having spent hundreds of millions then I don't think you can really call that a big achievement.
Mourinho is by no means perfect and criticisms can be drawn, but he has achieved success at a wider range of clubs/leagues over s longer period of time, and with more constraints on him.
With regard to the upcoming 'battle of Manchester' you would have to give the advantage to Jose based on his PL experience. Fingers crossed.
City will be more of a challenge and in a more challenging league now, and it will be interesting to see how Pep does. That said, he basically has a blank cheque to do what he wants, and if he does win the league having spent hundreds of millions then I don't think you can really call that a big achievement.
Mourinho is by no means perfect and criticisms can be drawn, but he has achieved success at a wider range of clubs/leagues over s longer period of time, and with more constraints on him.
With regard to the upcoming 'battle of Manchester' you would have to give the advantage to Jose based on his PL experience. Fingers crossed.
You can't genuinely think he was just there at the right time, surely?
So Pep doesn't get credit for nurturing them and molding them into the players they are today (or were at their peak)? It was after his appointment that we really saw what Xavi (on a club level) and Iniesta and, most importantly, can do, on a regular basis. That they are undoubtedly world class players and even can be included in the GOAT debate. He promoted Busquets; he promoted Pedro; he sold Ronaldinho, Deco and Eto'O; he deserves enormous credit for the job that he has done in Barca. I highly doubt that Messi would've been the player he is today without Pep - he still would've been the greatest player of his generation, but he really flourished under his care. Same for the rest of the squad. We look at them in retrospective, assuming that they were the same frightening names from today in 2008, but it wasn't a case, not at all.
People actually do. Ignoring contemporary reports by journalists at the time.
Head to head:
16/09/09 Inter 0-0 Barcelona (CL group stage)
24/11/09 Barcelona 2-0 Inter (CL group stage)
20/04/10 Inter 3-1 Barcelona (CL semi-final)
28/04/10 Barcelona 1-0 Inter (CL semi-final)
29/11/10 Barcelona 5-0 Real Madrid
16/04/11 Real Madrid 1-1 Barcelona
20/04/11 Real Madrid 1-0 Barcelona [after extra time] (Copa del Rey final)
27/04/11 Real Madrid 0-2 Barcelona (CL semi-final)
03/05/11 Barcelona 1-1 Real Madrid (CL semi-final)
14/08/11 Real Madrid 2-2 Barcelona (Spanish Super Cup)
17/08/11 Barcelona 3-2 Real Madrid (Spanish Super Cup)
10/12/11 Real Madrid 1-3 Barcelona
18/01/12 Real Madrid 1-2 Barcelona (Copa del Rey quarter-final)
25/01/12 Barcelona 2-2 Real Madrid (Copa del Rey quarter-final)
21/04/12 Barcelona 1-2 Real Madrid
30/08/13 Bayern 2-2 Chelsea [Bayern won 5-4 on penalties] (UEFA Super Cup)
Games: 16
Pep wins: 7
Draws: 6
Jose wins: 3
F&A: Pep 28-18 Jose
Of course he's a great coach and he added the finishing touches to those players, but its not like he turned up to a team full of sloggers. The three of Xavi, Iniesta and Messi were already well on their way to greatness by the time he arrived and the core of the team was there and ready to go. Ronaldinho and Deco were moved/moving before he was appointed, and Eto'o was swapped with Ibrahimovic, a player who lasted a single season. People seem to rewrite history in that he created the team from nothing. Not detracting from the job he did with the players he had but hes not really responsible for getting them to be there.
Mou and pep are geniouses of the game. Who's better between them is all about narative and preference.
Anyone who thinks either of them are just being in the right time or winning by sheer money is clueless.
Anyone who thinks either of them are just being in the right time or winning by sheer money is clueless.
Agree.
Agree with you there in particular the bolded part.
Pep hasn't really had to manage a team which wasn't already brimming with the kind of talent to dominate a league. In Spain he would have struggled not to win with the players at his disposal, and by moving to Bayern, he walked into another team at the height of its powers, in another league which was generally dominated by one huge team.
Pep is a good manager, he has some excellent ideas and methods which might well prove effective in a more competitive league, with a club which he'll have to put far more work into, but Mourinho has done this before and is, in my eyes, more proven as a manager.
This isn't to say that Mourinho is definitely better, it could be that Pep will easily adapt, it's looking likely that he'll get some top drawer signings to work with, to add to a squad already blessed with world class talents, so he will likely have a good head start. Mourinho has a bigger rebuild, and will find it much harder to attract top players, but Mourinho doesn't seem to mind the underdog role, so it'll be interesting to see what happens.
Pep is a good manager, he has some excellent ideas and methods which might well prove effective in a more competitive league, with a club which he'll have to put far more work into, but Mourinho has done this before and is, in my eyes, more proven as a manager.
This isn't to say that Mourinho is definitely better, it could be that Pep will easily adapt, it's looking likely that he'll get some top drawer signings to work with, to add to a squad already blessed with world class talents, so he will likely have a good head start. Mourinho has a bigger rebuild, and will find it much harder to attract top players, but Mourinho doesn't seem to mind the underdog role, so it'll be interesting to see what happens.
I would rather Guardiola. Both win a lot, both create great short term feels at clubs and both tend to spend rather then play youth. Guardiola plays better football though.
I'm not really sure I understand the criticism Pep is getting. When he went tpo Barcelona, Messi was injured every 6 weeks, Xavi was about to leave and got offers and encouraged them, Ronaldinho & Deco were the big stars and they had destroyed the locker room due their lack of professionalism. Pep cleared out a lot of dead wood. Will Mourinho kick out dead wood like Rooney on his return? Unlikely. Barcelona had talent, sure but he guided them into becoming the best club side in the modern era. he promoted Busuqtes and Pedro, who displaced Yaya Toure and Henry respectively. He made Messi change his diet and it was his tactical automatisms that made Barcelona play that way. He has also shown his tactical flexibility at Bayern.
Mourinho is a reactive coach that has pretty much played counter attacking football and designs his team to restrict space and hit on the break. He has not changed his tactics for over 10+ years. Coaching Peps football is far more difficult than Mourinhos. Anybody who has ever coached knows that it is easier to coach a team to restrict space rather than attack space. There is a reason that Mourinhos tactics have a 2 season limit. teams eventually figure him out and realise by restricting his teams space, he cannot coach them to circulate the ball effectively and utilise the space.
Pep is like Cruijff, they play only one way, attacking whether he won or lost which I suppose is his flaw and strength. His teams play with risk and with a high line. He would have won more for sure if his team decided to sit back and be reactive. In fact, Pep winning the Champions league is an anomaly because most teams that win it tend to sit back and be reactive which means he is always against the grain. You don't become an all time team playing the football of Mourinho. To the people saying he had talent, please tell me what legendary teams haven't had talent. Saachi recruited his talent for Milan, Michels had all star talent at Ajax in the 70s, Zagallo had talent in the 1970s WC Brazilian side and 1998 WC brazilain side. SAF never won with awful players. Mourinho, contrary to popular belief, had talent in Porto. I've just never understood the 'he had great players' arguement to detract from him. Based on Mourinhos previous pattern, expect him to win the league within 2 seaosons and then fall out with everyone at the club, his tactics will once again be figured out and he will be relieved of his duties in year 3 or 4.
Mourinho is a reactive coach that has pretty much played counter attacking football and designs his team to restrict space and hit on the break. He has not changed his tactics for over 10+ years. Coaching Peps football is far more difficult than Mourinhos. Anybody who has ever coached knows that it is easier to coach a team to restrict space rather than attack space. There is a reason that Mourinhos tactics have a 2 season limit. teams eventually figure him out and realise by restricting his teams space, he cannot coach them to circulate the ball effectively and utilise the space.
Pep is like Cruijff, they play only one way, attacking whether he won or lost which I suppose is his flaw and strength. His teams play with risk and with a high line. He would have won more for sure if his team decided to sit back and be reactive. In fact, Pep winning the Champions league is an anomaly because most teams that win it tend to sit back and be reactive which means he is always against the grain. You don't become an all time team playing the football of Mourinho. To the people saying he had talent, please tell me what legendary teams haven't had talent. Saachi recruited his talent for Milan, Michels had all star talent at Ajax in the 70s, Zagallo had talent in the 1970s WC Brazilian side and 1998 WC brazilain side. SAF never won with awful players. Mourinho, contrary to popular belief, had talent in Porto. I've just never understood the 'he had great players' arguement to detract from him. Based on Mourinhos previous pattern, expect him to win the league within 2 seaosons and then fall out with everyone at the club, his tactics will once again be figured out and he will be relieved of his duties in year 3 or 4.
I don't really see how people can measure Guardiola's status when he's only really managed the top team in Spain and the top team in Germany?? We should be asking this question in three years after his time at City. I honestly think he's going to get found out next year. These 'elite managers' who never get to be tested in real situations are very over-rated tbh.
That's why I have ultimate respect for Rafa Benitez now....because he's taken on a real challenge. If he turns Newcastle United around in a couple of years, for me he would be elevated above the likes of Guardiola who hides behind the comfort zone of big-spending clubs at the top of their leagues with the best players at his disposal. I don't think he would even contemplate taking on a challenge like Valencia and getting them competing at the top table in Spain again. If he was to do something like that then yeah he would be classed as a true great.
But out of the two mentioned, it has to be Mourinho.
That's why I have ultimate respect for Rafa Benitez now....because he's taken on a real challenge. If he turns Newcastle United around in a couple of years, for me he would be elevated above the likes of Guardiola who hides behind the comfort zone of big-spending clubs at the top of their leagues with the best players at his disposal. I don't think he would even contemplate taking on a challenge like Valencia and getting them competing at the top table in Spain again. If he was to do something like that then yeah he would be classed as a true great.
But out of the two mentioned, it has to be Mourinho.
Mourinho is a machete, pep is a fencing sword. Mourinho is a boxer, pep is an aikido. Mourinho is a mustang and pep is like a fancy japanese car with looks and accessories but both can race
Both does the job, but each to his own.
Funnily i have grown to respect rafa since his chelsea days. He's not annoying once he stop drinking scouse water. I respect him more for taking over Newcastle. He really tone down on his blabbering and seems more down to earth these days
Surely this post is not serious? If he improves Newcastle he will be above Guardiol who has won everything there is to win.
Rafa took Newcastle because no one else wants him.
Strange analogies. They are both very similar in all but their playing style. Which I think has a better style of Football, that would be Pep.
Simply put pep is more stylish but mou is effective and both are deadly
The head to head is in Guardiola's favour and fair play to him, but as i said before he had the much better side on most of their meetings.
I personally don't think there's much between them. And Pep is about to undertake his biggest challenge so far, i think we'll have confirmation in a year or two just how good he really is if he can replicate his previous success with City.
Can't choose. Pep innovates much more which I like and generally builds a team with a better consistent playing style. Jose brings passion and adapts to win at any cost. Both brilliant in their own ways.
As much as I think Mourinho's brilliant, I do think there's a bit of bias on show at the moment regarding the two. There are a fair few comments arguing that Guardiola hasn't really challenged himself, and that he's walked from big club to big club...but wasn't the consensus on Mourinho generally very similar a while back? Wasn't he also often considered to be someone who typically took big jobs wherein he had lots of money and quality?
He spent time at one of Portugal's biggest clubs, then moved to Chelsea, one of the richest sides in world football, went to reigning Italian champions Inter Milan, went to Real Madrid (self explanatory), then returned to Chelsea, and is now coming to a massive club. I think you could argue this is his biggest challenge in a fair while...and that's kind of saying something considering we're a massive club. That's not to undermine Mourinho or anything, because he's earned his success, but I don't think there's any merit in talking down Guardiola for supposedly only going to big clubs and trying to claim that Mourinho doesn't. Both men regularly go from big club to big club...because they're the best managers in the game.
He spent time at one of Portugal's biggest clubs, then moved to Chelsea, one of the richest sides in world football, went to reigning Italian champions Inter Milan, went to Real Madrid (self explanatory), then returned to Chelsea, and is now coming to a massive club. I think you could argue this is his biggest challenge in a fair while...and that's kind of saying something considering we're a massive club. That's not to undermine Mourinho or anything, because he's earned his success, but I don't think there's any merit in talking down Guardiola for supposedly only going to big clubs and trying to claim that Mourinho doesn't. Both men regularly go from big club to big club...because they're the best managers in the game.
Has he? The vast majority of their meetings took place in El Clasico games. Guardiola's Barca were obviously incredible, but Mourinho had a fantastic Real side as well, and it was his job at Real Madrid to get his side to the level of Guardiola's Bayern. I'd understand if Guardiola's record was bolstered by his games against Mourinho's Inter and Chelsea, but he only gains one win in that respect. The significant bolstering of his record against Mourinho comes in El Clasico games.