Grenfell Tower Fire | 14th June 2017

afrocentricity said:
So what is it then? They're wasting time? Or its not worth it? Or what?
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I was making a point that the police do investigate things and push through charges they usually wouldn’t for PR reasons because you stated that they wouldn’t.

You asked for another example of that happening and I gave you one that was very topical (it led the news in the past week).

You then adopted a condescending tone in response to that and seemed to reference previous debating points in the thread (not made by me) about the police wasting time on this as being ‘overstated and in my head’. So then I referenced the senior police officer who said very recently that the police are in fact wasting time on these types of crimes. Her concern was that having to investigate every report of someone feeling offended is taking away resources from what she considers real crimes, such as assault or burglary.
 
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Classical Mechanic said:
I was making a point that the police do investigate things and push through charges they usually wouldn’t for PR reasons because you stated that they wouldn’t.

You asked for another example of that happening and I gave you one that was very topical (it led the news in the past week).

You then adopted a typically condescending tone in response to that and seemed to reference previous debating points in the thread (not made by me) about the police wasting time on this as being ‘overstated and in my head’. So then I referenced the senior police officer who said very recently that the police are in fact wasting time on these types of crimes. Her concern was that having to investigate every report of someone feeling offended is taking away resources from what she considers real crimes, such as theft or burglary.
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Listen I think they should do their job. The post you initially responded to was making the point that they aren't wasting time.

Fact is, people report things they feel need reporting. That's always been the case. There being more reports to these types of issues are a product of the times, it doesn't force the police hands into making more out of a case than is warranted. So you're point is basically in reference to the the effort it takes to look at the reports. So I go back to what I was asking you.

afrocentricity said:
So what is it then? They're wasting time? Or its not worth it? Or what?
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Don't just point to the police chief and say "Well he/she thinks it's a waste of time".

Because if I'm being honest, that sounds like it has more to do with resources and funding. As opposed to whether or not there is an epidemic of people making frivolous claims (which is what I'm talking about here).

This is my opinion, but it's based on recognising that lots of things are happening right now. How you choose to see that is on you but the police chief having a different read on it than me doesn't suprise me.
 
I mean come on it's just not as deep as you guys make out, outrage at Twitter policing seems so Twitter to me. Hire 10 so called SJWs and 10 PC gon mad hatter's, set up a social media department, and delegate.....

Let them flag up anything credible with 'evidence'.
 
Deservedly arrested IMO. This for me is a breach of the public peace type of offence - it’s despiecable and it cannot go unpunished because it could easily lead to copycat offences online if it went unpunished. Furthermore it is a black and white case - it’s unforgivable and there’s no grey area where any utterance of theirs could be justified in any way.
 
I'm one for the odd 'dark' joke but that was hard to watch.
The amount of effort put into that and then to video it and come out with some of the stuff they said. They're clearly cnuts and deserve whatever they get.
 
afrocentricity said:
Listen I think they should do their job. The post you initially responded to was making the point that they aren't wasting time.

Fact is, people report things they feel need reporting. That's always been the case. There being more reports to these types of issues are a product of the times, it doesn't force the police hands into making more out of a case than is warranted. So you're point is basically in reference to the the effort it takes to look at the reports. So I go back to what I was asking you.



Don't just point to the police chief and say "Well he/she thinks it's a waste of time".

Because if I'm being honest, that sounds like it has more to do with resources and funding. As opposed to whether or not there is an epidemic of people making frivolous claims (which is what I'm talking about here).

This is my opinion, but it's based on recognising that lots of things are happening right now. How you choose to see that is on you but the police chief having a different read on it than me doesn't suprise me.
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I think the whole incident is crass in the extreme.

I agree that it is a funding issue rather than hate crimes being unworthy.

I’m not really a supporter of the American idea of freedom of speech and am not against prosecution for things like verbal harassment or hate crimes.

Regardless, the perpatrators will suffer far far more from their shaming than from any punishment the court could give them.
 
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villain said:
Not to be rude, and I’m being general here - but this argument shows a lack of knowledge of exactly how twitter works, especially when it comes to doxxing.

The idea that twitter is full of people who are anxiously waiting for the next storyline to be outraged at is ‘PC gone mad’ rhetoric and couldn’t be further from the truth.

Doxxing individuals is actually very difficult and the success rate is low, sure you hear about the stories in the media when they happen because they want your clicks, and the clicks of both extremes of the left & right wing to react appropriately.
But if you actually browse through the various attempts that people go through to actually doxx someone, and nothing happens you would see that twitter is far from judge jury and executioner.

Maybe when people figure out the formula of what causes something to go viral vs a few dozen/100s retweet’s, we can explore this further, but we’re no where near that stage yet.
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I don’t really see how the fact it’s a bit difficult to do makes it correct though. The fact they’ve gone to a bit of effort in tracking someone down to get them sacked shouldn’t really make any odds. Even if it isn’t successful in every case, they still try. It seems as if they certainly see themselves as having enough power to do so, even if they can’t always locate the offending party.
 
You've got to have something in place to stop people from going around encouraging the hate of other people on a ridiculous basis. I'd ask those people talking about policing proper crime how they feel about Muslim preachers & so on. You can't just do nothing, imo. And sometimes you have to be seen to be trying to do something to send a message.

To what extent you do that or whether you do it for quasi-private functions that are 'just' in completely appalling taste, I don't know.

Whether it should be policed on the basis of half-fabricated public / Establishment outrage I don't know either.

Or how nasty this case really is - in terms of being a proper hate crime. I don't know that either.

It should end up in just about the right place if we can reduce the hysteria level a little bit & they don't end up being locked up for it or anything stupid like that. Effigies get burned on bonfires every year, after all.
 


SEI-737236881.jpg

https://justice4grenfell.org/
 
Inquiry finds that customers were not warned of risks by Arconic, who did not share results of fire tests with UK certification body

Arconic did nothing to stop the sale of cladding which spread the Grenfell Tower fire despite two high rise infernos in the Middle East involving similar materials sparking internal concerns, the president of the French subsidiary told the inquiry into the fire.

The firm kept selling the plastic filled panels after a 2012 fire at the Tamweel tower in Dubai wrapped in similar material sent “fireballs” to the ground and didn’t warn customers of possible risks, the public inquiry into the disaster heard
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https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...hing-after-two-high-rise-fires-in-middle-east

Bastards. Absolute fecking bastards.

But the media only really gave a shit for the first phase so firefighters get the blame.
 
Yep. I think four times the Lords passed the clause protecting tenants and the Government defeated it four times in the Commons.

They held the final vote a day or so before prorogation too so the supporters of the measures basically had a choice of getting some of what they wanted or having the whole Bill fall.
 
Ministers have urged a family facing a devastating bill as part of the building safety crisis to contact the Samaritans if they want help with “feelings of distress or despair”.

In a move that sparked “disbelief” in the leaseholder involved, Jamie Robb, the response from an aide to the housing secretary, Robert Jenrick, to a plea for help with fire remediation works included the phone number for the suicide prevention service. It recommended its “free, anonymous, confidential and non-judgemental support”.



The Robb family wrote to Jenrick in November last year after Jamie Robb, 30, discovered he was facing a bill of up to £40,000 for fire safety repairs on his apartment in a Manchester high-rise.

The response arrived this week as the government pushed through fire safety legislation that leaves thousands of leaseholders facing bills of up to £75,000 each to fix apartment buildings found to be dangerous in the wake of the Grenfell Tower fire.

https://www.theguardian.com/society...-safety-bill-told-they-can-contact-samaritans
 
Honestly it’s appalling that this is being allowed to happen. The government should be footing the bill and claiming this back from those responsible.

Starmer and Labour should be highlighting this issue more than they are doing aswell
 
Jericholyte2 said:
https://metro.co.uk/2021/05/07/fire...with-same-cladding-used-on-grenfell-14537101/

Fire currently being tackled in Canary Wharf - reportedly covered in the same cladding as Grenfell...
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Mr Pigeon said:
Beeb article doesn't even mention the cladding
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-57022678
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Not the same cladding but similar, but yeah it's been known it's unsafe for ages and should never have come to this but it's almost inevitable when nothing's getting done by so many of them.
 
Shocking this is still going on. Ultimately it all comes down to who is going to pay for it.

the freeholder will usually pass any cost of major repairs onto the leaseholder. Which in turn will cripple thousands of home owners.

it’s a complete mess.

I’m also still surprised that Grenfell hasn’t been demolished yet - I presume there are still investigations still ongoing on the building itself? Part of the process of moving on, would be to tear down the building - as well as clearly getting some answers and accountability.
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
Shocking this is still going on. Ultimately it all comes down to who is going to pay for it.

the freeholder will usually pass any cost of major repairs onto the leaseholder. Which in turn will cripple thousands of home owners.

it’s a complete mess.

I’m also still surprised that Grenfell hasn’t been demolished yet - I presume there are still investigations still ongoing on the building itself? Part of the process of moving on, would be to tear down the building - as well as clearly getting some answers and accountability.
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It's still pretty big- they've taken slightly less than half down I reckon, I guess Covid delayed it.
You can see it for miles around still.
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
Shocking this is still going on. Ultimately it all comes down to who is going to pay for it.

the freeholder will usually pass any cost of major repairs onto the leaseholder. Which in turn will cripple thousands of home owners.

it’s a complete mess.

I’m also still surprised that Grenfell hasn’t been demolished yet - I presume there are still investigations still ongoing on the building itself? Part of the process of moving on, would be to tear down the building - as well as clearly getting some answers and accountability.
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Yes, it's a grey area at the moment. I think unless there's enough legal precedent, the leaseholders will have to cover the costs.

However, another major problem is the lead time. There're around 300 engineers in UK who can sign off the EWS1 survey at the moment (that is the official data from RICS, so potentially less). That number is ridiculously low.
 
Jippy said:
It's still pretty big- they've taken slightly less than half down I reckon, I guess Covid delayed it.
You can see it for miles around still.
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Didn’t realise they had even started, they hadn’t last time I saw, which admittedly was a long time ago.
 
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