Grenfell Tower Fire | 14th June 2017

[villain]

Who decides what is disrepute though? You’re putting parameters on taste and asking Twitter, in all its wisdom, to be judge, jury and executioner.

If someone tweeted an opinion which didn’t totally follow the PC line and enough people were offended for it to gain a slight bit of momentum, how do they decide what is the correct level of outrage to take action? It all sounds a bit thought police-ish to me.

Not to be rude, and I’m being general here - but this argument shows a lack of knowledge of exactly how twitter works, especially when it comes to doxxing.

The idea that twitter is full of people who are anxiously waiting for the next storyline to be outraged at is ‘PC gone mad’ rhetoric and couldn’t be further from the truth.

Doxxing individuals is actually very difficult and the success rate is low, sure you hear about the stories in the media when they happen because they want your clicks, and the clicks of both extremes of the left & right wing to react appropriately.
But if you actually browse through the various attempts that people go through to actually doxx someone, and nothing happens you would see that twitter is far from judge jury and executioner.

Maybe when people figure out the formula of what causes something to go viral vs a few dozen/100s retweet’s, we can explore this further, but we’re no where near that stage yet.

 

[saivet]

The people I've seen getting sacked for stuff posted on twitter are the types that have posted stuff that are clearly very offensive. It's not a case of them just disagreeing with what they say. Someone saying we need Brexit as there are too many immigrant coming in. some may find it offensive but that's a view one disagrees with. At most it's someone misinformed without meaning to be too malicious.

A lot of companies have a social media policy too. I hope those involved get sacked.

Put it this way, if their identities are confirmed people know their employers it doesn't look good on the company if they do nothing.

 

[Penna]

Surely that would never stand up at an employment tribunal. How would you get gross misconduct out of that?

These people are sick, but they have broken no laws. Ostracism would, possibly, affect them more, but they are such utter cnuts, it probably wouldn't have any effect on them anyway.

They've been arrested - I would imagine that posting something on social media removes the defence of "it was in my back garden".

Five men have been arrested on suspicion of a public order offence in connection with a model of Grenfell Tower being burned on a bonfire.

A video shared on social media shows a cardboard model of the tower being set alight by a laughing crowd.

The Metropolitan Police said the men - two aged 49 and the others aged 19, 46 and 55 - handed themselves in at a south London station on Monday night.

Prime Minister Theresa May had called the video "utterly unacceptable".

The men have been arrested under section 4a of the Public Order Act 1986, which covers intentional "harassment, alarm or distress" caused via the use of "threatening, abusive or insulting" words or signs.

Offences committed on a private residence where a person "had no reason to believe" it would be "heard or seen by a person outside that or any other dwelling" are protected from prosecution under the act.

Racially or religiously aggravated offences under the act carry a prison sentence of up to two years, a fine or both.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-46106224

 

[Marcelinho87]

The men have been arrested under section 4a of the Public Order Act 1986, which covers intentional "harassment, alarm or distress" caused via the use of "threatening, abusive or insulting" words or signs.

Offences committed on a private residence where a person "had no reason to believe" it would be "heard or seen by a person outside that or any other dwelling" are protected from prosecution under the act.

Shot themselves in the foot then eh? They would have been protected had they not posted it online for all and sundry.

 

[Sassy Colin]

As the Police commissioner said last week, I'd rather the Police spent their time catching thieves rather than wasting their time on people who haven't committed any offence, except to offend people.

 

[Wibble]

As the Police commissioner said last week, I'd rather the Police spent their time catching thieves rather than wasting their time on people who haven't committed any offence, except to offend people.

Except it would appear that they have committed an offence.

 

[Red Defence]

Shot themselves in the foot then eh? They would have been protected had they not posted it online for all and sundry.

Shouldn’t think they’ll be feeling quite as clever now, or finding it quite as amusing as they did when they posted it

 

[Sassy Colin]

Except it would appear that they have committed an offence.

They did find something to charge them with, yes. Can you imagine if they had presented themselves at a Police station and the Police had set them away?

 

[Irrational.]

Fecking scum, they deserve all that they get including losing their jobs (that's if they even have a job).

 

[finneh]

As the Police commissioner said last week, I'd rather the Police spent their time catching thieves rather than wasting their time on people who haven't committed any offence, except to offend people.

Absolutely. Even if the CPS can crowbar this into a low level public order offence; that would practically speaking carry a small fine... It really isn't worth the resources to prosecute. Truthfully I think the freedom of speech laws in this country are constantly being eroded by the cynical use of legislation in this way. Not only should offending people not be a criminal offence, but it should be absolutely and vehemently protected. Are we going to arrest the thousands of people who five years ago were on the streets signing "Ding-dong, the witch is dead!" when Thatcher died? I'm sure her family and friends were equally distressed seeing those videos on TV whilst her body was barely cold.

The offence in itself was meant to protect against actions that intentionally cause others immediate distress/alarm. This kind of second hand fury in response to a video posted on social media absolutely should be nowhere near the threshold. If they fought it I'm confident that intent could not be found. However it's likely that accept the slap on the wrist rather than going through the grief of court.

I'm all for them losing their jobs, however. Employer's should have absolute autonomy in firing someone for bringing the company into disrepute in this manner.

 

[Rado_N]

I'm not comfortable with the idea of it being a criminal offence to be a cnut.

Don't get me wrong I have zero sympathy with these particular cnuts, but where do you draw the line? People take offense to all manner of things, who decides what is criminal?

 

[golden_blunder]

I'm not comfortable with the idea of it being a criminal offence to be a cnut.

Don't get me wrong I have zero sympathy with these particular cnuts, but where do you draw the line? People take offense to all manner of things, who decides what is criminal?

Me

 

[golden_blunder]

In what world did they think it was going to be a good idea to build a cardboard tower with Grenfell written on it and models of people at the windows then set fire to it? All to chase a couple of cheap green smilies online

 

[esmufc07]

Absolutely. Even if the CPS can crowbar this into a low level public order offence; that would practically speaking carry a small fine... It really isn't worth the resources to prosecute. Truthfully I think the freedom of speech laws in this country are constantly being eroded by the cynical use of legislation in this way. Not only should offending people not be a criminal offence, but it should be absolutely and vehemently protected. Are we going to arrest the thousands of people who five years ago were on the streets signing "Ding-dong, the witch is dead!" when Thatcher died? I'm sure her family and friends were equally distressed seeing those videos on TV whilst her body was barely cold.

The offence in itself was meant to protect against actions that intentionally cause others immediate distress/alarm. This kind of second hand fury in response to a video posted on social media absolutely should be nowhere near the threshold. If they fought it I'm confident that intent could not be found. However it's likely that accept the slap on the wrist rather than going through the grief of court.

I'm all for them losing their jobs, however. Employer's should have absolute autonomy in firing someone for bringing the company into disrepute in this manner.

Can't disagree with any of that.

 

[Rado_N]

Me

ok that works.

 

[SteveJ]

Me

 

[montpelier]

Posting it online moves it from private to public domain.

If they've done that themselves it moves rapidly towards inciting racist hatred & contravening decency innit?

It's possible it's dreadful humour gone wrong though, yes.

Effigies at bonfire time - I mean, it's not a huge leap from idea to implementation is it?

 

[Andy_Cole]

cnuts with a capital C.

 

[SteveTheRed]

Posting it online moves it from private to public domain.

If they've done that themselves it moves rapidly towards inciting racist hatred & contravening decency innit?

It's possible it's dreadful humour gone wrong though, yes.

Effigies at bonfire time - I mean, it's not a huge leap from idea to implementation is it?

But what happens if they didn't post it online, or is it considered public domain even if you have shared it with friends on whatsapp?

I hope they get some punishment, just I don't know what they can actually be charged with?

 

[Silva]

They've been arrested - I would imagine that posting something on social media removes the defence of "it was in my back garden".

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-46106224

 

[montpelier]

....is it considered public domain even if you have shared it with friends on whatsapp?

I hope they get some punishment, just I don't know what they can actually be charged with?

I think that's a pretty good question. Could imagine both sides legal teams having some fun with that.

I expect they will be punished via a Guilty plea & loads of remorse, so that won't happen.

There;s just about enough to say relatively leniently & let the public / Establishment outrage show how wrong it is (which I suppose it is)

All a bit overplayed though innit? Albeit for the right reasons.

Establishment overacting their disgust is a bit rich considering the circumstances surrounding what happened.

 

[SteveTheRed]

I think that's a pretty good question. Could imagine both sides legal teams having some fun with that.

I expect they will be punished via a Guilty plea & loads of remorse, so that won't happen.

There;s just about enough to say relatively leniently & let the public / Establishment outrage show how wrong it is (which I suppose it is)

All a bit overplayed though innit? Albeit for the right reasons.

Establishment overacting their disgust is a bit rich considering the circumstances surrounding what happened.

Putting it lightly!

As much as this whole effigy burning is disgusting, does it really need to shared and plastered all over the media? In the world of the offended, it seems like everyone has to make a stand and point out how disgusting they think it is... This should have just been ignored, put down to a bunch of idiots being c*nts.

Every celebrity with a twitter account has now seen this video, posted their reaction to millions of followers who have in turn then watched the video.

 

[RedSky]

Putting it lightly!

As much as this whole effigy burning is disgusting, does it really need to shared and plastered all over the media? In the world of the offended, it seems like everyone has to make a stand and point out how disgusting they think it is... This should have just been ignored, put down to a bunch of idiots being c*nts.

Every celebrity with a twitter account has now seen this video, posted their reaction to millions of followers who have in turn then watched the video.

Simply waving it off and allowing twats like that to do what they like simply emboldens others to raise the bar. But then I think there should be far more policing on social media, people should be allowed to post what they like but should accept that it could carry consequences.

I'm actually glad the media are actually making a stance against scum like that.

 

[Adam-Utd]

I'm not comfortable with the idea of it being a criminal offence to be a cnut.

Don't get me wrong I have zero sympathy with these particular cnuts, but where do you draw the line? People take offense to all manner of things, who decides what is criminal?

Criminal is perhaps a strong word, but it's clearly very offensive and heartless. People like that don't belong in society IMO. Laughing at innocent people being burnt alive just because of their skin colour / origin doesn't belong in this world.

 

[SteveTheRed]

Simply waving it off and allowing twats like that to do what they like simply emboldens others to raise the bar. But then I think there should be far more policing on social media, people should be allowed to post what they like but should accept that it could carry consequences.

I'm actually glad the media are actually making a stance against scum like that.

Yes I agree with you as well, its a contradiction because if it wasn't shared all over social media, these feckers would have got away with it.

It will be interesting to see from a legal point of view what happens to these lot. And who shared it on twitter etc.

 

[FootyGirl88]

Disgusting Pigs

 

[Heardy]

I haven’t seen all of the footage but there is a risk of individuals attending the bonfire being guilty by association here!!

If attaching blame on someone it should be solely directed at the individual that made the effigy!! If others attended a party and effectively laughed at a joke (as distasteful as it is) should not have their lives ruined and faces plastered all over the tabloids.

Inevitably this could well result in “mob justice” and despite being entirely insensitive to the families of those that died, those in attendance have not physically hurt anyone here.

Many have laughed at jokes made by the likes of Frankie Boyle / Jimmy Carr etc. And whilst knowing that the content matter is grossly insensitive to someone, it doesn’t mean that those on the periphery share the view or are equally culpable for causing said offence.

 

[Heardy]

All a bit overplayed though innit? Albeit for the right reasons.

Establishment overacting their disgust is a bit rich considering the circumstances surrounding what happened.

Agreed.

People will jump on a social media bandwagon and state just how disgusting it is, and petition for these guys to face charges etc.

People want to be seen as social justice warriors but just how many of these people have focused their anger on those responsible for the tragedy itself or donated to associated charities etc? Far fewer I’d wager.

 

[Sassy Colin]

Or, the Police could spend their time catching proper criminals.

 

[Silva]

they handed themselves in and will get a small fine because they're gonna show contrition in court while theresa may will and her goons act shocked and appalled about all this despite the people from greenfell still not having homes

 

[Red Defence]

A sixth person has been arrested and garden has been searched.

 

[Penna]

Yes I agree with you as well, its a contradiction because if it wasn't shared all over social media, these feckers would have got away with it.

It will be interesting to see from a legal point of view what happens to these lot. And who shared it on twitter etc.

The fact that their names and pictures are now being published will be a pretty significant punishment, I think. Everyone they know/work with etc will be talking about them, and hopefully the majority of those people will be disgusted by their actions.

 

[afrocentricity]

The fact that their names and pictures are now being published will be a pretty significant punishment, I think. Everyone they know/work with etc will be talking about them, and hopefully the majority of those people will be disgusted by their actions.

Exactly. If there are any charges then it'll be with respect to any laws they have broken I'd have thought. I doubt the police are scurrying around trying to drum up charges.

All this talk of 'I'd rather police do actual police work' is misguided, how distracting do people actually think this ended up being? They will just act on a report as they normally would...

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Exactly. If there are any charges then it'll be with respect to any laws they have broken I'd have thought. I doubt the police are scurrying around trying to drum up charges.

All this talk of 'I'd rather police do actual police work' is misguided, how distracting do people actually think this ended up being? They will just act on a report as they normally would...

I don’t know if it is happening in this case but the police do act politically and respond to the media. Look at the Cliff Richard case.

 

[buchansleftleg]

Exactly. If there are any charges then it'll be with respect to any laws they have broken I'd have thought. I doubt the police are scurrying around trying to drum up charges.

All this talk of 'I'd rather police do actual police work' is misguided, how distracting do people actually think this ended up being? They will just act on a report as they normally would...

A large part of Police's role is to be a deterrent to crime and if they are seen to crack down hard on this racist display then it might discourage countless other acts of racist aggression we have seen shared on social media in last couple of years.

Racist behavior has been on the increase since the referendum and Trump winning. Time to enforce some tolerant behavior the only way some people can understand.

 

[afrocentricity]

I don’t know if it is happening in this case but the police do act politically and respond to the media. Look at the Cliff Richard case.

Any other examples of this impending epidemic?

A large part of Police's role is to be a deterrent to crime and if they are seen to crack down hard on this racist display then it might discourage countless other acts of racist aggression we have seen shared on social media in last couple of years.

Racist behavior has been on the increase since the referendum and Trump winning. Time to enforce some tolerant behavior the only way some people can understand.

Yeah if they break the law sure. Otherwise I'm happy for them to get exposed so that the public can dish out some retribution/street justice.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Any other examples of this impending epidemic?.

It’s how they operate on one level.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...hreatens-legal-action-against-vile-met-police

 

[afrocentricity]

It’s how they operate on one level.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...hreatens-legal-action-against-vile-met-police

Unrelated and not indicative of anything. I know some of you seriously believe that the police are getting caught up wasting time, instead of doing real police work. It's overstated and mostly in your head.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Unrelated and not indicative of anything. I know some of you seriously believe that the police are getting caught up wasting time, instead of doing real police work. It's overstated and mostly in your head.

In the past week one of the most senior police officers in the country has said the force are wasting resources investigating hate crimes. Nonetheless, I shall bow to your superior knowledge of the inner workings of the MPS.

 

[afrocentricity]

In the past week one of the most senior police officers in the country has said the force are wasting resources investigating hate crimes. Nonetheless, I shall bow to your superior knowledge of the inner workings of the MPS.

Yea you don't think hate crime is worth investigating. Shocked...

Let's agree to disagree. Shocked...