Grenfell Tower Fire | 14th June 2017

Rams said:
The building was originally designed that a fire would be contained in the area where it started. Basically it consisted of 100's of separate fire compartments. By plastering combustible cladding in the outside they made the original design obsolete and created a death trap. In other words, staying put was the best thing to do had they not used combustible cladding.
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I really do think that planning to contain fires (which are notoriously unpredictable) 10-15 floors up with people staying put above that is flawed at the most basic level, I really do.

I'll read what anyone wants to say with interest but I'm not even open-minded about it enough to 'argue' with anyone over it. I just instinctively hate it, honestly.

<argues anyway>

The change of circumstances doesn't have to be dangerous external cladding does it, Rams. It could be people storing their spare petrol in the 13th floor cupboards or anything, industrial quantities of glue because of their model making obsession, paint, anything.
 
montpelier said:
I really do think that planning to contain fires (which are notoriously unpredictable) 10-15 floors up with people staying put above that is flawed at the most basic level, I really do.

I'll read what anyone wants to say with interest but I'm not even open-minded about it enough to 'argue' with anyone over it. I just instinctively hate it, honestly.

<argues anyway>

The change of circumstances doesn't have to be dangerous external cladding does it, Rams. It could be people storing their spare petrol in the 13th floor cupboards or anything, industrial quantities of glue because of their model making obsession, paint, anything.
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A fire compartment means that the construction is such that a fire will be contained in the compartment, no matter what's stored inside. The fire safety of buildings like Grefnel Tower were originally designed with that in mind. I'm an expert on these things by the way.
 
Rams said:
A fire compartment means that the construction is such that a fire will be contained in the compartment, no matter what's stored inside. The fire safety of buildings like Grefnel Tower were originally designed with that in mind. I'm an expert on these things by the way.
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I'm not, :lol:. And I read your contributions & usually learn something.

Theoretically it's a good plan. Clearly doesn't work though, does it? If you can't put the fire out & where (tending towards) inadequate escape routes are easily even more compromised - by putting gas pipes into them for example... or ongoing maintenance work.

AND... you've got the issue of mis-application - theory vs. practice thing gonna be going on.

I'm supposedly in a 'stay put' situation - although they haven't promoted it with a lot of enthusiasm & there's no way my flat is even vaguely compartmentalised like you're describing. But it'll be fine, I'm sure, although I shan't be hanging around if I spot anything resembling a fire.

And (very big *I reckon* coming here) these feckers were even quietening the alarms possibly - to prevent too much alarm presumably.

Sorry, I'm sure you've noticed I am VERY peeved about all this.
 
Nick 0208 Ldn said:
But that tweet does not bear upon any of those issues directly.
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It does. As is emerging, the tower resident's action group has been calling the council and the landlord out for at least 5 years. In 2013, the council lawyered up to stop the action group posting to their blog about the conditions in the block.

After the renovations, with exposed gas pipes left in the stairwell and the shoddy cladding, the residents tried to take legal action themselves, but of course the tory government have cut legal aid, and they could not afford their own lawyers. They were effectively denied any legal redress for the dangerous situation simply because they were poor. Of course, ensuring poor people have no legal standing was the entire point of legal aid changes in the first place.

And then 100+ of them are burned alive as a result.

The whole situation is about money, austerity and government policy. This is the result of tory policy. Children burning to death. But the aftermath has been handled even worse.

The story of Grenfell house is one of its residents being ignored. They said there were problems, the council ignored them. They said there were risks, the council made legal threats to shut them up. They said the work was shoddy, the contractors threatened them. They wrote on a blog that it will take a catastrophe for people to take any notice.

And guess what? A catastrophe happened, and may ignored them, and the council ignored them. Even after a catastrophe, they didn't take notice.

That is where the anger comes from, and that is why may and the council should get all the criticism they are getting, because they are useless, a brief analysis of the situation would tell ANYONE the best thing to do is just listen to the residents this time, let them vent, let them feel someone notices. And they have failed to do so. To say may is inept does a disservice to inept people, she is simply unfit for office.
 
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GloryHunter07 said:
Come off it.
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I only mean in line with working the 'stay put' policy as they seemed to be preferring as the fire safety option.

evidence: passing references we've seen to people saying alarms weren't going off - and the trapped woman video, alarms are normally verging towards being deafening or at least very noticeable, you could hardly hear that one.
 
Nogbadthebad said:
It does. As is emerging, the tower resident's action group has been calling the council and the landlord out for at least 5 years. In 2013, the council lawyered up to stop the action group posting to their blog about the conditions in the block.

After the renovations, with exposed gas pipes left in the stairwell and the shoddy cladding, the residents tried to take legal action themselves, but of course the tory government have cut legal aid, and they could not afford their own lawyers. They were effectively denied any legal redress for the dangerous situation simply because they were poor. Of course, ensuring poor people have no legal standing was the entire point of legal aid changes in the first place.

And then 100+ of them are burned alive as a result.

The whole situation is about money, austerity and government policy. This is the result of tory policy. Children burning to death. But the aftermath has been handled even worse.

The story of Grenfell house is one of its residents being ignored. They said their were problems, the council ignored them. They said their were risks, the council made legal threats to shut them up. They said the work was shoddy, the contractors threatened them. They wrote on a blog that it will take a catastrophe for people to take any notice.

And guess what? A catastrophe happened, and may ignored them, and the council ignored them. Even after a catastrophe, they didn't take notice.

That is where the anger comes from, and that is why may and the council should get all the criticism they are getting, because they are useless, a brief analysis of the situation would tell ANYONE the best thing to do is just listen to the residents this time, let them vent, let them feel someone notices. And they have failed to do so. To say may is inept does a disservice to inept people, she is simply unfit for office.
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Well said.
 
Things NOT to be politicised: Poverty, austerity, council housing, legal aid.
Things TO be politicised: The sponsoring and naming of seasonal children's activities.

2017 is fecking weird.
 
Nogbadthebad said:
It does. As is emerging, the tower resident's action group has been calling the council and the landlord out for at least 5 years. In 2013, the council lawyered up to stop the action group posting to their blog about the conditions in the block.

After the renovations, with exposed gas pipes left in the stairwell and the shoddy cladding, the residents tried to take legal action themselves, but of course the tory government have cut legal aid, and they could not afford their own lawyers. They were effectively denied any legal redress for the dangerous situation simply because they were poor. Of course, ensuring poor people have no legal standing was the entire point of legal aid changes in the first place.

And then 100+ of them are burned alive as a result.

The whole situation is about money, austerity and government policy. This is the result of tory policy. Children burning to death. But the aftermath has been handled even worse.

The story of Grenfell house is one of its residents being ignored. They said there were problems, the council ignored them. They said there were risks, the council made legal threats to shut them up. They said the work was shoddy, the contractors threatened them. They wrote on a blog that it will take a catastrophe for people to take any notice.

And guess what? A catastrophe happened, and may ignored them, and the council ignored them. Even after a catastrophe, they didn't take notice.

That is where the anger comes from, and that is why may and the council should get all the criticism they are getting, because they are useless, a brief analysis of the situation would tell ANYONE the best thing to do is just listen to the residents this time, let them vent, let them feel someone notices. And they have failed to do so. To say may is inept does a disservice to inept people, she is simply unfit for office.
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Good post.

The fact that people are still trying to argue that this isn't a politicised incident is disgusting quite frankly, given that there's history & proof of the residents warning the council multiple times, and the government at the time ignoring safety concerns.

And the idea that if you aren't directly related to this incident that you shouldn't be angry, or have no reason to be angry. Feck off, I know so many people who live in accommodation similar to Grenfell and if they were a part of this you damn right I would protest & riot if necessary.

You've got people criticising politicians for wanting to talk about the issues because they're perceived as trying to score points.
Then those same people arguing that this isn't a political issue.
There's clearly a pattern emerging and I don't think they have the vision to see it.
 
vi1lain said:
Good post.

The fact that people are still trying to argue that this isn't a politicised incident is disgusting quite frankly, given that there's history & proof of the residents warning the council multiple times, and the government at the time ignoring safety concerns.

And the idea that if you aren't directly related to this incident that you shouldn't be angry, or have no reason to be angry. Feck off, I know so many people who live in accommodation similar to Grenfell and if they were a part of this you damn right I would protest & riot if necessary.

You've got people criticising politicians for wanting to talk about the issues because they're perceived as trying to score points.
Then those same people arguing that this isn't a political issue.
There's clearly a pattern emerging and I don't think they have the vision to see it.
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Of course it is political. Is cuts were made that compromised what was spent on the safety of these people then it is political. Whichever party made the decision. Also not making the fire regulations super safe, especially if they thought somebody would have to spend money in the process, is somebodies fault.
 
Nogbadthebad said:
It does. As is emerging, the tower resident's action group has been calling the council and the landlord out for at least 5 years. In 2013, the council lawyered up to stop the action group posting to their blog about the conditions in the block.

After the renovations, with exposed gas pipes left in the stairwell and the shoddy cladding, the residents tried to take legal action themselves, but of course the tory government have cut legal aid, and they could not afford their own lawyers. They were effectively denied any legal redress for the dangerous situation simply because they were poor. Of course, ensuring poor people have no legal standing was the entire point of legal aid changes in the first place.

And then 100+ of them are burned alive as a result.

The whole situation is about money, austerity and government policy. This is the result of tory policy. Children burning to death. But the aftermath has been handled even worse.

The story of Grenfell house is one of its residents being ignored. They said there were problems, the council ignored them. They said there were risks, the council made legal threats to shut them up. They said the work was shoddy, the contractors threatened them. They wrote on a blog that it will take a catastrophe for people to take any notice.

And guess what? A catastrophe happened, and may ignored them, and the council ignored them. Even after a catastrophe, they didn't take notice.

That is where the anger comes from, and that is why may and the council should get all the criticism they are getting, because they are useless, a brief analysis of the situation would tell ANYONE the best thing to do is just listen to the residents this time, let them vent, let them feel someone notices. And they have failed to do so. To say may is inept does a disservice to inept people, she is simply unfit for office.
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Good Post.

What is sickening even to the layman who doesn't take interest in politics, or even to someone with a shred of decency who puts people first and bipartisan politics second is that whilst Theresa May might not have had a direct hand in such an event occurring, her inhumane response has been a sheer and utter disgrace. I am reading Daily Mail articles saying she is demonstrating a 'stiff upper lip' unlike that disgraceful media whore Corbyn who is using the grief to further his agenda and it just shows how far this country has gone to the dogs and how coming out with utter bile and shite like that is acceptable.

Her interview with newsnight was despicable. @Nick 0208 Ldn I know you back the tories on anything, but even someone like you could see the tone of that interview and her responses were criminal. She did not give a feck about what happened and it was all about politicking first and damage limitation. No hint of emotion and empathy. A person like that is not fit for office. She's as worse a PM as Trump is president and that is saying something.
 
Nogbadthebad said:
It does. As is emerging, the tower resident's action group has been calling the council and the landlord out for at least 5 years. In 2013, the council lawyered up to stop the action group posting to their blog about the conditions in the block.

After the renovations, with exposed gas pipes left in the stairwell and the shoddy cladding, the residents tried to take legal action themselves, but of course the tory government have cut legal aid, and they could not afford their own lawyers. They were effectively denied any legal redress for the dangerous situation simply because they were poor. Of course, ensuring poor people have no legal standing was the entire point of legal aid changes in the first place.

And then 100+ of them are burned alive as a result.

The whole situation is about money, austerity and government policy. This is the result of tory policy. Children burning to death. But the aftermath has been handled even worse.

The story of Grenfell house is one of its residents being ignored. They said there were problems, the council ignored them. They said there were risks, the council made legal threats to shut them up. They said the work was shoddy, the contractors threatened them. They wrote on a blog that it will take a catastrophe for people to take any notice.

And guess what? A catastrophe happened, and may ignored them, and the council ignored them. Even after a catastrophe, they didn't take notice.

That is where the anger comes from, and that is why may and the council should get all the criticism they are getting, because they are useless, a brief analysis of the situation would tell ANYONE the best thing to do is just listen to the residents this time, let them vent, let them feel someone notices. And they have failed to do so. To say may is inept does a disservice to inept people, she is simply unfit for office.
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Very well said.
 
It's time to kick out the word "austerity", which was how the public were conned into thinking that absolutely everything about the economic crisis was about government overspending. Mention of the "light touch" policy and greed is good attitude is not even mentioned nowadays. This all began with Thatcher and Reagan's idea that government is the problem, not part of the solution. This idea even filtered in via the biological sciences (again) in books such as Lord (Matt) Ridley's about evolution. Ridley, by the way, was a director at Northern Rock at the time of the bankruptcy and I think is a hereditary peer.
 
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shaggy said:
Completely ignores the question asking why support wasn't made available straight away and answers all other tough questions with "this was a terrible tragedy."

Awful PM.
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After the utter debacle of her election campaign and her even worse performance over the last few days why has she not resigned?
 
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Wibble said:
After the utter debacle of her election campaign and her even worse performance over the last few days why has she not resigned?
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Pure self interest from the Tories. Shameful really. Whenever the next election is, I hope they are duly punished by the electorate.
 
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Pogue Mahone said:
I'm actually curious about how the responsibilities of the council and the government are split with something like this. I can't imagine a local council being set up to cope with a disaster like this. Should the whole process not be led by the national government?
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Of course the government should have stepped in and taken control of the situation, ensuring the relief effort was properly coordinated and victims received all the help they needed immediately. I don't know whether it's because the government has been distracted by talks with the DUP or the impending Brexit negotiations, or if they genuinely just don't give a shit, but there has been a complete abdication of duty at every level. May should resign.
 
Why are people still having to sleep on the ground, four days after the fire?! You're telling me there aren't a few hundred hotel rooms available in London? What the feck is going on?

If there's protests this weekend, I'm going.
 
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Damian Green’s announcement this morning of a new taskforce that would be deployed to the scene appears to be unravelling. A spokeswoman for Green’s office said that in fact it appeared to be a conflation of two different measures first announced by No 10 yesterday.

She said the Grenfell Tower taskforce was a high-level group chaired by Theresa May, which included representatives of the Home Office, the Ministry of Justice, the Department for Work and Pensions, the Cabinet Office, the Department for Education, the Department of Health, the Treasury and the Department for Communities and Local Government.

The taskforce first met on Friday, when it agreed the package of measures for those affected that was later announced by May. The group was due to meet again today, the Cabinet Office spokeswoman said, although she could not say what was on the agenda.

There is also a team on the ground to provide help to people affected by the fire. However, the Cabinet Office spokeswoman could not say what the nature of this help would be, other than to provide hotline numbers for people worried about missing loved ones, housing and benefits. She said she would get back to the Guardian to explain what other means of help the team would provide.

She was clear that the team on the ground would not be responsible for coordinating relief efforts, despite continuing complaints from volunteers at relief centres that there has been no local crisis response framework.
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The Guardian
 
MikeUpNorth said:
Why are people still having to sleep on the ground, four days after the fire?! You're telling me there aren't a few hundred hotel rooms available in London? What the feck is going on?

If there's protests this weekend, I'm going.
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That is a disgrace if true. Should have been taken care of within 24hrs.
 
Wibble said:
After the utter debacle of her election campaign and her even worse performance over the last few days why has she not resigned?
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The Tories would like lose any election at this point so she is hanging on. She looks defeated to me. Her resigning would make it worse for her anyway I believe, she has to try and sort something out rather than running away.
 
https://www.change.org/p/implement-the-recommendations-of-the-lakanal-report


Nogbadthebad said:
It does. As is emerging, the tower resident's action group has been calling the council and the landlord out for at least 5 years. In 2013, the council lawyered up to stop the action group posting to their blog about the conditions in the block.

After the renovations, with exposed gas pipes left in the stairwell and the shoddy cladding, the residents tried to take legal action themselves, but of course the tory government have cut legal aid, and they could not afford their own lawyers. They were effectively denied any legal redress for the dangerous situation simply because they were poor. Of course, ensuring poor people have no legal standing was the entire point of legal aid changes in the first place.

And then 100+ of them are burned alive as a result.

The whole situation is about money, austerity and government policy. This is the result of tory policy. Children burning to death. But the aftermath has been handled even worse.

The story of Grenfell house is one of its residents being ignored. They said there were problems, the council ignored them. They said there were risks, the council made legal threats to shut them up. They said the work was shoddy, the contractors threatened them. They wrote on a blog that it will take a catastrophe for people to take any notice.

And guess what? A catastrophe happened, and may ignored them, and the council ignored them. Even after a catastrophe, they didn't take notice.

That is where the anger comes from, and that is why may and the council should get all the criticism they are getting, because they are useless, a brief analysis of the situation would tell ANYONE the best thing to do is just listen to the residents this time, let them vent, let them feel someone notices. And they have failed to do so. To say may is inept does a disservice to inept people, she is simply unfit for office.
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Contrary to the somewhat gushing responses of other posters, i actually find your reply to be close that of Clive Lewis'. You'll cast your net wide and draw in issues to suit pre-existing agendas.

My primary motivation is to learn the lessons pertaining to this horror and apportion culpability based upon what is reasonably known. I also tend toward the practical, so while it would be nice if May could be more instinctively open in her reactions, it doesn't take on a greater importance than it deserves. How long it takes us inspect other high-rises across the country, whether parliament will echo the regulatory position of the US or Germany, these are the sort of things which matter to me right now.


Pogue Mahone said:
I'm actually curious about how the responsibilities of the council and the government are split with something like this. I can't imagine a local council being set up to cope with a disaster like this. Should the whole process not be led by the national government?
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Each and every local authority (or relevant devolved branch) will have an emergency response plan, including coordination with the emergency services. It is the responsibility of a council to take the first steps toward the re-housing of residents, or making available is facilities for the storage of donated goods. If the system is working as it ought to, central government should be called upon out of need or with regards to longer term arrangements.
 
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How hard is it to coordinate a proper relief effort for those displaced? For anyone not needing to be hospitalised, you give them a dedicated support worker on call 24/7, you give them a prepaid mobile phone with pre-installed numbers to the support worker and any other key authority contacts, you put them up in a good hotel and give them enough cash to buy the food/clothing/supplies they need (or you go and get all that stuff for them and bring it to them).

You don't leave them on the floor in the shadow of the burnt out building indefinitely.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
Why are people still having to sleep on the ground, four days after the fire?! You're telling me there aren't a few hundred hotel rooms available in London? What the feck is going on?

If there's protests this weekend, I'm going.
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I agree, the first priority should have been to house these folk in hotels. Give them some peace and quiet, comfy beds, a private bathroom, proper food and somewhere to get away from the chaos. If the Government is giving £5m for immediate relief, that's where it needs to start.
 
What's the latest news on the death toll / missing persons?
 
On Politicisation:

Even language is a trap. They've persuaded you to react to policies like cutting free school meals - often, the only decent meal many children receive per day - by debating the economical nuance rather than the outrage of the thing itself; justified anger is diluted while we discuss the tawdry fact that 'sacrifices have to be made'....by anyone other than the millionaires who pass for politicians. This tragedy, and its prelude, is just another chapter in the appalling history of how the non-rich are treated. Still, I guess we should be humbly grateful that they're not actually beheading us for raising our voices this time:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentrich_rising
 
starman said:
Thats a different issue, should you and i have sprinklers in our homes as well, how smoke and carbon monoxide alarms are required?
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Not sure what your saying really. Being 30 stories up isnt the same as being one floor up
 
vi1lain said:
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Hillsborough tactics is OTT - even the right wing rags have been fairly unanimous in expressing outrage over what has happened. And, at the risk of sounding unduly cynical, I have to be honest that I have had some doubts of the authenticity of one or two of interviewees I have seen over the last few days.
 
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