Greatest mens tennis player of all time

[SalfordRed18]

Murray isn't close to an all time great.

I'd say both Novak and Rafa can overtake Federer if they play as long as he does in terms of stats. In terms of overall impact on the game, I think Fed may keep his crown for a while.

Murray isn't even the British GOAT. Fred Perry won 10 slams including the career slam during his career. Murray only has a total of 3. Good player but not nearly in the GOAT conversation.

I love Muzzy but he’s not even anywhere near these guys let alone tier 2 and 3 GOAT candidates.

Murray IMO is one of the all time greats of tennis. He'll be remembered for decades and decades after he retires.

 

[Brophs]

I think Fed may have one more left in the tank - possibly at Wimby or the Open or possibly next year's Aussie. If he reaches 21, it will make it very hard to catch him. I can see Rafa winning maybe one more French but with Thiem just hitting his peak it will be increasingly hard.

For whatever reason, I think 22 will be the magic number. I think Nadal, if healthy, could win a couple more French. And I wouldn’t rule him out if a draw went his way either in Australia or the US. For Djokovic, I think 1 slam on average for the next 3 years is achievable given the shape he’s in. Maybe more. So if he wins Wimbledon and the US this summer, he’d be set fair for 21 or 22 with some luck.

Looooooooads of IFs, obviously, but I reckon I’d be worried if I was Federer. It goes without saying that I’d prefer to be in his position, but Djokovic was two matches from a calendar slam this weekend. He doesn’t look like he’s going away.

 

[Raoul]

Like I said in the other thread, even if Novak finishes a Slam or two below Federer, he's got to be GOAT. He's got truly impressive accomplishments already and he's done it without stat padding in a weak field. Ofcourse if he does get a weak field to stat pad in, he's good enough to take a good number of Slams if Fed/Nadal are done soon.

If we end up with all of them within a Slam or two of each other then, at that point, it's going to be more than just the count.

He won't be considered the GOAT unless he matches Federer's slam record.

 

[wr8_utd]

He won't be considered the GOAT unless he matches Federer's slam record.

I diaagee. If it ends something like :

Rafa 20
Novak 20
Roger 21

People will most definitely be looking into a lot more than just the count then. Federer getting owned in the H2H by both his rivals will sway opinions too.

 

[wr8_utd]

Great stat : Rafa is the only person to have won Slams on all 3 surfaces in a calendar year. Neither Novak nor Federer have done it.
He's also the only to have Atleast two Slams on each surface.
Very impressive for a guy who was once set to be a clay court specialist.

 

[Raoul]

I diaagee. If it ends something like :

Rafa 20
Novak 20
Roger 21

People will most definitely be looking into a lot more than just the count then. Federer getting owned in the H2H by both his rivals will sway opinions too.

There will be multiple factors but neither of the other two will be taken seriously as GOAT if they don't win the most slams. It's only when they equal Fed that the likes of Masters tournaments and H2Hs come into play. And even then, that sort of thing would be offset by the fact that Fed would've won more tennis tournaments over his career.

 

[Raoul]

Great stat : Rafa is the only person to have won Slams on all 3 surfaces in a calendar year. Neither Novak nor Federer have done it.
He's also the only to have Atleast two Slams on each surface.
Very impressive for a guy who was once set to be a clay court specialist.

He will always be viewed as a clay court specialist because of the amount of slams and tournaments he won on clay. That's not to take away his success on other surfaces but a vast majority of his success has been as a result of his play at RG

 

[Brophs]

I diaagee. If it ends something like :

Rafa 20
Novak 20
Roger 21

People will most definitely be looking into a lot more than just the count then. Federer getting owned in the H2H by both his rivals will sway opinions too.

H2H is a factor, yeah, but in the case of a tie deciding an argument based on that alone seems to give it too much weight, in my opinion. Some match ups just suit certain players better than others. I know plenty of people make the reductive argument that ‘the GOAT would find a way to flip the H2H and wouldn’t allow themselves to have a clear H2H deficit’ but, for me, the ability to win on multiple surfaces regularly is just as relevant. Likewise, style of play and consistency.

 

[wr8_utd]

There will be multiple factors but neither of the other two will be taken seriously as GOAT if they don't win the most slams. It's only when they equal Fed that the likes of Masters tournaments and H2Hs come into play. And even then, that sort of thing would be offset by the fact that Fed would've won more tennis tournaments over his career.

If they equal Federer it won't even be a debate anymore. Neither would have stat padded, both would have more Masters. At that point no one is going to look at ATP 500, 250 titles. If all 3 are equal it's easily Djoko as GOAT. Holding all 4 Slams together at one point in itself would be a deciding factor. And Ofcourse his winning H2H with both his rivals.

 

[wr8_utd]

H2H is a factor, yeah, but in the case of a tie deciding an argument based on that alone seems to give it too much weight, in my opinion. Some match ups just suit certain players better than others. I know plenty of people make the reductive argument that ‘the GOAT would find a way to flip the H2H and wouldn’t allow themselves to have a clear H2H deficit’ but, for me, the ability to win on multiple surfaces regularly is just as relevant. Likewise, style of play and consistency.

H2H is just one of the reasons for Novak to be GOAT in these situations imo.

A) Consistency across surfaces
B) Only player to win all 9 Masters
C) Only one to hold all 4 Slams together
D) Superior H2H against both Rafa and Roger
E) Having to face Federer, Nadal and Murray for his titles. Not the likes of Roddick and Hewitt.

 

[wr8_utd]

I find looking at just a Slam count way too simplistic a way of evaluating who's GOAT if the gap is minimal between the guys.
I love Rafa but if he finishes one Slam above Novak, that's not suddenly going to make Rafa the greater player.
There's a lot more to it than just your Slam count if you're not some 3-4 Slams clear of your immediate rivals.

 

[Raoul]

If they equal Federer it won't even be a debate anymore. Neither would have stat padded, both would have more Masters. At that point no one is going to look at ATP 500, 250 titles. If all 3 are equal it's easily Djoko as GOAT. Holding all 4 Slams together at one point in itself would be a deciding factor. And Ofcourse his winning H2H with both his rivals.

Correct. If they equal Fed the H2Hs and Masters wins would come into play (as would the aforementioned Fed tournament wins, which as of now are 2nd only to Connors). If on the other hand Fed finishes with more slams, all other factors would remain largely irrelevant and he would be universally viewed as the greatest ever.

 

[altodevil]

I'm not a tennis expert, but isn't Federer a fair bit older than the other two? Seems unfair to compare H2H records when his prime did not align.

 

[wr8_utd]

I'm not a tennis expert, but isn't Federer a fair bit older than the other two? Seems unfair to compare H2H records when his prime did not align.

Rafa and Novak have been beating him for quite a while now.

 

[Brophs]

H2H is just one of the reasons for Novak to be GOAT in these situations imo.

A) Consistency across surfaces
B) Only player to win all 9 Masters
C) Only one to hold all 4 Slams together
D) Superior H2H against both Rafa and Roger
E) Having to face Federer, Nadal and Murray for his titles. Not the likes of Roddick and Hewitt.

All fair, albeit I think you’re overstating the Hewitt/Roddick thing a touch. For whatever it might be worth, I think Djokovic, if he gets to the same number as slams as one or both, would be my pick for GOAT. The calendar slam thing is huge.

 

[Raoul]

Rafa and Novak have been beating him for quite a while now.

This was Nadal's first win against Federer in the past 7 attempts over more than 5 years.

 

[wr8_utd]

All fair, albeit I think you’re overstating the Hewitt/Roddick thing a touch. For whatever it might be worth, I think Djokovic, if he gets to the same number as slams as one or both, would be my pick for GOAT. The calendar slam thing is huge.

Yup, Djokovic has been pick for GOAT for a while.

This was Nadal's first win against Federer in the past 7 attempts over more than 5 years.

It was actually his first win in 6 attempts. Federer won the last 5 and Nadal won the 5 before that. It's a different thing that they barely meet anymore.
He's been beating Federer since he was a teen and across surfaces.
24-15 H2H

 

[wr8_utd]

The one place where Federer totally and completely owns Nadal though is indoor. Federer's just too good there.

 

[Raoul]

Yup, Djokovic has been pick for GOAT for a while.


It was actually his first win in 6 attempts. Federer won the last 5 and Nadal won the 5 before that. It's a different thing that they barely meet anymore.
He's been beating Federer since he was a teen and across surfaces.
24-15 H2H

The seventh match was a walkover, which still counts in the H2H. Not a particularly flattering thing for Nadal to be losing to a near retirement age Federer, just as it wasn't a good look for Roger to be losing to a young upstart Nadal.

 

[berbatrick]

Rafa and Novak have been beating him for quite a while now.

I think the H2H argument is weaker for Novak vs either Roger or Nadal. Firstly because the margin is narrow vs both unlike 24-15. And at least in Fed's case because it was very even till the end of 2015, when clearly Federer was far past his peak.
(And unlike vs Rafa, he never faced Novak in 2017 to set the record straight at least a little bit).

Rafa has a clear H2H argument over Fed, and an unparalleled argument on clay, with the opposing argument being only 2 Wimbledons and 4 hardcourt titles compared to Fed's 8 and 11.

 

[Port Vale Devil]

Imagine how many slams any of the three would have if they were in some of the other era or the others were not in this era.

Too close to call for me they are so dominant against the rest.

 

[wr8_utd]

I think the H2H argument is weaker for Novak vs either Roger or Nadal. Firstly because the margin is narrow vs both unlike 24-15. And at least in Fed's case because it was very even till the end of 2015, when clearly Federer was far past his peak.
(And unlike vs Rafa, he never faced Novak in 2017 to set the record straight at least a little bit).

Rafa has a clear H2H argument over Fed, and an unparalleled argument on clay, with the opposing argument being only 2 Wimbledons and 4 hardcourt titles compared to Fed's 8 and 11.

I think 25-22 vs Fed and 28-26 vs Rafa are unbelievable H2H records for Novak. To have a winning H2H vs two of the GOATs is a supreme record. Him leading the grass H2H with Federer is also very impressive given just how good Fed is on grass.

 

[Raees]

Murray IMO is one of the all time greats of tennis. He'll be remembered for decades and decades after he retires.

In the UK yes and he's a great player generally so of course he will be remembered but not as a serious GOAT contender. Not a chance in hell.

 

[berbatrick]

One of the ironies for Federer in this argument is that probably his 2 toughest wins have come on smaller stages. For comparison, Rafa beat Roger in the Wimbledon final and Novak beat Rafa at RG, which are both unforgettable.

Federer's toughest wins against those 2:
vs Rafa, he ended a 3-year/81-match winning streak on clay for Nadal in 2007 with a bagel. But this was in a Masters, not RG.
vs Novak, he ended his 43-match streak at the start of 2011 in 4 excellent sets. But this was at the French semi - he lost the final to Nadal.

His headline win against Rafa is 2017 AO, when both were past their peak, and was probably by definition a lower level than he had in the 2007 win. Federer's has only 1 final win against Novak, 2007 USO, which means little since that was peak Fed vs young Novak. All his other wins are in semis or masters.

I think 25-22 vs Fed and 28-26 vs Rafa are unbelievable H2H records for Novak. To have a winning H2H vs two of the GOATs is a supreme record. Him leading the grass H2H with Federer is also very impressive given just how good Fed is on grass.

It's 2-1, with Novak winning in 2014 and 15 after losing in 2012. To me Nadal's 2008 win despite the 1-2 record is probably the more impressive achievement.
Federer at Wimbledon has been beaten by a whole list of people, and after 2003 by Rafa, Berdych(!), Tsonga, Djokovic*2, Stakhovsky (had to google that one), Raonic, and Kevin Anderson. It is not like Nadal at RG. Compiling a winning record after 2008 vs Fed at Wimbledon is great but not for me as high as you rank it.

 

[wr8_utd]

One of the ironies for Federer in this argument is that probably his 2 toughest wins have come on smaller stages. For comparison, Rafa beat Roger in the Wimbledon final and Novak beat Rafa at RG, which are both unforgettable.

Federer's toughest wins against those 2:
vs Rafa, he ended a 3-year winning streak on clay for Nadal in 2007 with a bagel. But this was in a Masters, not RG.
vs Novak, he ended his 43-match streak at the start of 2011 in 4 excellent sets. But this was at the French semi - he lost the final to Nadal.

His headline win against Rafa is 2017 AO, when both were past their peak, and was probably by definition a lower level than he had in the 2007 win. Federer's has only 1 final win against Novak, 2007 USO, which means little since that was peak Fed vs young Novak. All his other wins are in semis or masters.




It's 2-1, with Novak winning in 2014 and 15 after losing in 2012. To me Nadal's 2008 win despite the 1-2 record is probably the more impressive achievement.
Federer at Wimbledon has been beaten by a whole list of people, and after 2003 by Rafa, Berdych(!), Tsonga, Djokovic*2, Stakhovsky (had to google that one), Raonic, and Kevin Anderson. It is not like Nadal at RG. Compiling a winning record after 2008 vs Fed at Wimbledon is great but not for me as high as you rank it.

I think one thing going against both Federer and Novak is their poor H2H vs Rafa at RG. Djoko did beat him the one time Rafa was way below par but otherwise even he's never beaten him.
If either had even one more win vs Rafa in Paris it would be pretty big.

 

[MJJ]

@Raoul how have your top 5 changed from the OP?

 

[Raoul]

@Raoul how have your top 5 changed from the OP?

Definitely. I'd go with Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, Borg, and Sampras

 

[SalfordRed18]

In the UK yes and he's a great player generally so of course he will be remembered but not as a serious GOAT contender. Not a chance in hell.

Wayne Rooney is one of the greatest players of his generation, but is he in contention the greatest player of his generation? They're two different things, that's how I look at it.

 

[2mufc0]

The way things are going Djokovic will end with the most slams and the GOAT. Even if Nadal hits 20 I would still rank him third because a disproportionate amount of his slams came on one surface. He's the undisputed clay GOAT though.

 

[Canagel]

 

[Ainu]

That's such a tedious discussion. As if non-clay surfaces are "weak" for Nadal. He's excellent on all surfaces, it's just that he's godlike on clay.

 

[Raees]

Wayne Rooney is one of the greatest players of his generation, but is he in contention the greatest player of his generation? They're two different things, that's how I look at it.

Yes and that would be correct. What you said wasn't the same as that.

You basically equated Murray's level of greatness with that of Djokovic, when there is so many leagues between them. Furthermore you didn't just state Murray was a generational great, but an all-time level great..

If you are saying Murray is one of the greatest players of his generation and the best outside the top three, then yes - fair comment.

Federer is the GOAT overall. Nadals the GOAT on clay.

Murray and Novak are in the conversation of all time greats, without being the greatest.

Murray IMO is one of the all time greats of tennis.

 

[Raoul]

He's not the all around GOAT because he hasn't won as many slams. Of course being overwhelmingly good on clay doesn't help him in all surface debates.

 

[berbatrick]

Federer has 6-1-8-5 at the different events, Novak has 7-1-4-3. Nadal has 1-12-2-3.

Fed has the all-time record tally at Wimbledon and US, and is 1 behind the record at AO. Djokovic has the record at AO, and a decent haul at Wimbledon. Nadal is nowhere close on any of those 3.
Nadal has beaten Roger and Novak 6 times each at RG, never in the same year - he's the main reason why their tallies are skewed as they are. You can't apply that the other way - he has lost to a lot of opponents other than those 2 on hard courts and especially on grass. Nadal on clay, especially French open, is not a human. Every clay court honour belongs to him. But you can remove Wimbledon for Roger and AO for Djokovic, and their records are more impressive than Nadal's minus French.
6-1-5
1-4-3
1-2-3

 

[SalfordRed18]

Yes and that would be correct. What you said wasn't the same as that.

You basically equated Murray's level of greatness with that of Djokovic, when there is so many leagues between them. Furthermore you didn't just state Murray was a generational great, but an all-time level great..

If you are saying Murray is one of the greatest players of his generation and the best outside the top three, then yes - fair comment.

Jesus, i think hes one of the all time greats of tennis and i think he'll be remembered for years to come. If you dont agree thats completely fine!

 

[wr8_utd]

I know Rafa's not gotten as many at other Slams but he's yet come the closest (2 games away twice) to a Career Double Slam as well as being the only one to win across all surfaces in one season. He's got a very good Slam count on all surfaces considering just how many he's actually missed there. His efficiency once reaching the semis is brutal as well.
Isn't Rafa one of the only ones ever to win the entire North American hard court swing in one season? USO and the two Masters prior to it. He's been good at other surfaces but his godlike status on clay makes it look ordinary in comparsion.

 

[wr8_utd]

Federer has 6-1-8-5 at the different events, Novak has 7-1-4-3. Nadal has 1-12-2-3.

Fed has the all-time record tally at Wimbledon and US, and is 1 behind the record at AO. Djokovic has the record at AO, and a decent haul at Wimbledon. Nadal is nowhere close on any of those 3.
Nadal has beaten Roger and Novak 6 times each at RG, never in the same year - he's the main reason why their tallies are skewed as they are. You can't apply that the other way - he has lost to a lot of opponents other than those 2 on hard courts and especially on grass. Nadal on clay, especially French open, is not a human. Every clay court honour belongs to him. But you can remove Wimbledon for Roger and AO for Djokovic, and their records are more impressive than Nadal's minus French.
6-1-5
1-4-3
1-2-3

Rafa at RG >>>>> Novak at AO
Rafa at W has just one title lesser than Djokovic and has already beaten the Federer of 2008 at Wimbledon.

 

[berbatrick]

Rafa at RG >>>>> Novak at AO
Rafa at W has just one title lesser than Djokovic and has already beaten the Federer of 2008 at Wimbledon.

Rafa at RG >>>>> anyone at anything

and 2, not 1, less than Djokovic at W.

Again, taking out their best gives us
6-1-5 (12)
1-4-3 (8, and probably rising)
1-2-3 (6)

All this is in response to a tweet about Nadal's non-clay performance, which is why I'm highlighting it.

 

[wr8_utd]

Rafa probably needs another Slam or two off the clay to reinforce his claims for GOAT. If he can win AO and be the first to do the career double Slam, he'll have much better credentials.

 

[Moby]

Rafa at RG >>>>> anyone at anything

and 2, not 1, less than Djokovic at W.

Again, taking out their best gives us
6-1-5 (12)
1-4-3 (8, and probably rising)
1-2-3 (6)

All this is in response to a tweet about Nadal's non-clay performance, which is why I'm highlighting it.

You should remove both hard courts for Djoker.