Actually, Djokovic had an amazing year (2015) comparable to Fed's 2006.
He had 6 losses all year, 3 to Fed, 1 each to Stan and Murray.
Federer's 2006 had 5 losses, 4 to Rafa and 1 to Murray.
Greatest mens tennis player of all time
- Thread starter Raoul
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Actually, Djokovic had an amazing year (2015) comparable to Fed's 2006.
He had 6 losses all year, 3 to Fed, 1 each to Stan and Murray.
Federer's 2006 had 5 losses, 4 to Rafa and 1 to Murray.
Federer had 4 years from 04 to 07 of going through almost everything like butter (except for a peak Safin and Nadal on clay). The sustained domination sets him apart in any battle against Aliens.
Nadal hasn't dominated. He dominated in 2008, 2010 and 2013.
He won two slams and Olympic in 2008. Three slams the other two years. It's impossible to dominate with Federer and Djokovic around. Federers main domination came between 2003-2007. Before the other three came on the scene. If Djokovic or Nadal were at their peak then it would have been more difficult for Federer to win majority of slams.
Some people seem to think Nadal losing to 36 year old Federer is some sort of flaw against Nadal. Federer lost to teen Nadal. Or let's not forget 36 year old Agassi pushing Federer in a grand slam final in 2005. All great players can perform at any age. The problem is consistency especially in 30s and fatigue.
I'd say again, using Masters 1000/WTF titles is a better metric than no. of ATP titles imo. Of course the 500s and 250s count, but as they are not mandatory, the quality of opposition can vary widly.
Give Djoko and Nadal that sort of field and so would they in all probability. I find Djoko's domination of a particular year more impressive than Federer's because of the higher quality of opposition he was up against.
Absolutely. Roddick's record of 32 titles looks great till you realize 21 of those are 250's whereas Nadal and Djoko have 30 Masters titles alone.
Yeah I don't get this line of thinking that Nadal hasn't dominated. What Djoko did when he dominated was next level domination of the tour but Nadal has definitely dominated as much as you can dominate a field that includes peak Federer and Djoko and the likes of Murray. I'm not going to use it to take away anything from Federer but like you said, it's undeniable that a lot of Fed's Slams came in a far weaker field than what Nadal and Djoko have had to deal with.
Fed won 12 of his Slams by 2007 before Nadal really learned how to play the other courts and before Djoko properly arrived. It's been 6 Slams in the 10 years since once Murray, Djoko and Nadal have peaked as well.
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Well if he does overtake Federer, history will look at that raw number that states he has the most Slams ever, not how many weeks he spent at #1.
Players beaten in Slam finals to take the title :
Federer : Philippoussis, Safin, Roddick (4 times), Hewitt, Agassi, Baghdatis, Gonzalez, Rafa (3 times), Murray (3 times), Djoko and Soderling.
Nadal : Puerta, Federer (6 times), Soderling, Berdych, Ferrer, Djoko ( 4 times) and Stan
Djoko : Tsonga, Murray (5 times), Nadal (3 times), Federer (3 times)
Djoko has had it pretty rough hasn't he
Federer : Philippoussis, Safin, Roddick (4 times), Hewitt, Agassi, Baghdatis, Gonzalez, Rafa (3 times), Murray (3 times), Djoko and Soderling.
Nadal : Puerta, Federer (6 times), Soderling, Berdych, Ferrer, Djoko ( 4 times) and Stan
Djoko : Tsonga, Murray (5 times), Nadal (3 times), Federer (3 times)
Djoko has had it pretty rough hasn't he
Agreed. He won't catch Fed on either, but if he does the GOAT case can be made.
For me, Djoko will be in GOAT consideration even if he gets to within a slam or two or three of Fed. He's just had it the toughest of the 3 to actually win his titles.
He's a long way off and at 30 isn't going to get any better, so I doubt he will win 5-6 more slams. A more likely scenario is that a new player emerges and starts winning many slams, thereby depriving the likes of Djokovic and Nadal the necessary chances to catch Federer.
I'm sorry. Nadal is well ahead of Djoko. Nadal beat peak Fed a few times (even if 3 of them were the MONO year I think)
Beating Murray in Grand Slams isn't much of an achievement. Stan has more claim to be part of the "Big 4" than he does. He's a serial choker unless playing for his country (which can be respected, I guess). Djoko's also beat a post peak Fed many times.
Nadal had a pretty tough path, and Fed's early wins are being severely undervalued.
That doesn't account for players that they had knocked out earlier in the tournament however. If you were trying to say that Djokovic had it tough, would it not be better to pick out all the Top 10 seeds he defeated in each of his GS wins?Players beaten in Slam finals to take the title :
Federer : Philippoussis, Safin, Roddick (4 times), Hewitt, Agassi, Baghdatis, Gonzalez, Rafa (3 times), Murray (3 times), Djoko and Soderling.
Nadal : Puerta, Federer (6 times), Soderling, Berdych, Ferrer, Djoko ( 4 times) and Stan
Djoko : Tsonga, Murray (5 times), Nadal (3 times), Federer (3 times)
Djoko has had it pretty rough hasn't he
It's Federer without question for me, you can reel off all his amazing records (some of which he doesn't get enough credit for) but watching him play is the best way to settle it. Not a fan of his but it's a shame how Djokovic is rapidly dropping out of contention for second place. He's still got time to turn it round of course but these last 12 months will always be a blot on his copybook.
Only person who can come in and maybe win some Slams is probably Nick but I don't see anyone stopping the main guys from winning for 2-3 seasons more imo. Djoko is a way off right now but if he gets his motivation levels back, he'll be a contender again. Someone good enough to hold all Slams a year ago doesn't become rubbish overnight. He'll be back before the end of the year I think.
I don't think they will. At the start of these 12 months, he held all 4 Slams and that's something Nadal and Federer have not managed. 12 bad months won't impact his legacy.
Djokovic has just gone 30 though. Tennis players tend to drop off when they reach that age, with Federer being something of a sui generis in this regard. And for good as Federer has been since he reached the age of 30, he has so far only won 2 Grand Slams since then (And one of those came when he was 30). Understandably, the athleticism of tennis players sharply declines as they age, and that creates a scenario whereby the only old players who can really compete are those with outstanding technical abilities (Federer). For as good as Djokovic has been (Good as in one of the best players to have played the game, not the GOAT), I feel his strongest points have always been his unmatchable scuttling around the court and his mental strength (Although this comes and goes). As Djokovic's athleticism declines, his incredible returning will also decline, leading to a sharp drop-off in performance. This may seem like something of a very negative take on Djokovic's future but Father Time waits for no one.
Agreed. I can't see Nadal and Djokovic playing at a world class level for much longer. Roger and Rafa have turned the clock back a bit this year, but I suspect this will be their last year of playing at a high level. As usual, new players will emerge as older ones wind down. In the mid 80s as the likes of McEnroe, Connors, and others were winding down, suddenly Becker comes out of nowhere and wins Wimbledon. Then Edberg emerges and does the same. At that point all the older players were finished and that led to the eventual rise of others like Sampras/Agassi etc.
Djoko has that sort of field and went past the QF's once in the last 4 slams. He just got bagelled by Thiem...
Nadal and Djokovic aren't the ones you compare with Roddick tho. Also Roddick in this era (13/16) would win a lot more titles, including Masters
Nadal never dominated the field mate. He dominated clay and that's about it. He has less than 10 titles in the last 12 years in the second part of the season(post Wimbey). His clay domination has kept him at around #2 in the world and capitalized to #1 when Federer had mono and his results suffered before Djokovic emerged. You'd never put him as favorite in any slam bar the RG. Still done pretty well at others but not GOAT level.
Disagree completely about the weaker field. A 35/36 years old Federer wins AO beating 4 top ten ranked opponents on the way and also sweeps the opening 2 MS. It has been 6 slams in the 10 years since the others have arrived since he slowed down and generally was over the hill. \
Federer from 2010 AO and onwards was losing to guys like Tsonga, Berdych, Soderling and the likes who usually he brushed aside in his peak. It's not only Djokovic and Murray but his general level dipped. 2013,2014 and 2016 are the worst I've seen Federer play since like 15 years on tour and he had also numerous issues like back injuries and other stuff that slowed him down. It's far from peak Federer that Murray, Nadal and Djokovic faced in the last 7 years or so.
Federer in 2011, where he went to 6 finals(record low since 2002), was enough to brush aside a peak Djokovic at the RG denying him of calendar slam. You can't expect him to win 3 slams on average for 10 years mate.
Players beaten in Slam finals to take the title :
Federer : Philippoussis, Safin, Roddick (4 times), Hewitt, Agassi, Baghdatis, Gonzalez, Rafa (3 times), Murray (3 times), Djoko and Soderling.
Nadal : Puerta, Federer (6 times), Soderling, Berdych, Ferrer, Djoko ( 4 times) and Stan
Djoko : Tsonga, Murray (5 times), Nadal (3 times), Federer (3 times)
Djoko has had it pretty rough hasn't he
Top-10 wins
Federer has the most wins over top-10 ranked players in the Open Era and is the first player ever to reach 200 top-10 wins.[10]
Year 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 Total
Wins 1 3 5 10 9 18 15 19 17 7 15 16 10 16 4 17 15 1 7 205
Top 10 wins
Djokovic has the second most wins over top 10 ranked players in the Open Era. He also set the era's single season record with 31 wins in 2015 (besting the prior record of 24).
Season 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 Total
Wins 0 0 1 2 6 11 15 4 21 24 24 19 31 21 2 181
Top 10 wins
Nadal has the third most wins over top 10 ranked players in the Open Era.
Season 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 Total
Wins 0 0 2 2 5 10 11 17 14 11 16 11 24 6 7 4 9 149
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Think this is a better representation of who everybody faced during the time.
This current Djoko is like Federer and Nadal at their absolute worst so I won't count his current form as an representation of what he is. He held all 4 Slams just a year ago. He's completely lost the plot (and motivation) now.
I highly doubt he would win too many Masters in the last decade. If not dealing with Federer at his best, it would be Nadal or Djoko or Murray to deal with and also the random big hitters. He struggled to win anything with just one Federer around and I don't think it would get any better with him and 3 others to deal with.
I'm not sure how he's not dominated considering he's won 3 Slams in a year(twice?). He has 5 or more Slam finals on every surface, he has multiple Slams on each surface (something even Federer and Djoko have not done), he won the entire North American post Wimbledon season in 2013, he's the only player in the Open Era to win three consecutive grand slams on three different surfaces in the same calendar year, he's won an Olympic Gold on hard courts and has 9 hard court Masters titles.
Even the years he's been the best on tour, you'd still probably not put him down as favorite to win on the hard courts because of how good Fed and Djoko are there but he's still gone on to win multiple Slams a year. He's never had it easy and always had to go up against either Federer or Djoko and Murray to be able to "totally" dominate the tour but he has dominated enough imo.
hence my comment for the field today, yet 2004-2007 are labelled as a weak field. 13-16 is the worst period for Federer since 2003, also riddled by injuries.
Roddick is 6-5 vs Djokovic, 3-7 vs Nadal and 3-8 vs Murray. 4 of the losses against Nadal and Murray came from 2010 year end and 2011 when he was practically retired. I'd say he was doing pretty fine, considering his peak was in the mid 00's.
As I've said he dominated clay and had 3 great overall seasons picking up other titles on the way. But he didn't truly dominate a year on tour in the way Federer, Borg, Sampras, Nadal, McEnroe, Djokovic did.
Nadal had a 75-7 record in 2013. Won 2 of the 3 Slams he participated, won all 3 North American hard court Masters titles he played in and lost before the semis just once all season. I think it was a pretty dominant season considering it came after some 6-7 months out injured...
That semi-final was an absolutely monumental performance from Federer. I think he hit 18 aces at RG that day against Djokovic at his peak of all people. For context, Nadal hit 4 on Sunday against Wawrinka. And that wasn't even Federer at his peak.
Fed's always had a brilliant serve. Very accurate as well.
Yes. but his performance that day is nearly beyond belief. Djokovic had been 41-0 on the ATP Tour all season coming into that match; in addition, he had beaten Nadal in four finals at Indian Wells, Miami, Madrid and Rome (With Djokovic winning in straight sets at both Rome and Madrid - both on clay). Federer then hits 18 aces and wins in four sets against peak Djokovic. For as good as his serving is, especially vis-à-vis Nadal, Djokovic and Murray, to hit 18 aces at Roland Garros against an exceptional returner at his absolute peak is nigh-on incredible.
out of interest.. what would be everyone's 10 best performances for Federer, Nadal and Djokovic?
Aye, indeed it was incredible performance, aces aside. Although not at his peak there Federer was pretty close to it on that day and produced a magical performance.
To me his absolute top clay performance was Rome 06 when Nadal was on a 50 something winning streak on clay. Federer should've beaten him that day was the better player but at the end missed crucial balls to take it.
Off the top of my head some notable ones would be.
Nadal RG 2008 F vs Federer
Djokovic Aus Open 2016 (?) SF vs Federer
Federer Wimbledon SF 2015 (?) vs Murray
My following of tennis has increased over the years, so pre 2008, Wimbledon aside, I won't have watched many matches as I was a kid just interested in football and F1.
I'd have to see other suggestions people have
Federer's top two would have to be AO 2007 vs Roddick and USO 2004 vs Hewitt. After that you're probably looking at TMC 2006 vs Blake, RG 2011 vs Djokovic, W 2005 vs Roddick, TMC 2007 vs Nadal, USO 2008 vs Murray, Hamburg 2007 vs Nadal and any match you like from Wimbledon 2006.
Hard to say. The best I've seen Fed play was against Hewitt in 2004 USO. He was ripping them all over the court. Nadal definitely the 08 French and the 2010 USO where he juiced up that serve.
Djokovic is his AO performances, maybe the 2011 AO. He was in a great form then and went on to dominate Nadal on all surfaces playing some great tennis on the way.
Nadal's best performances and greatest matches would probably be different matches. Off the top of my head :
Davis Cup vs Roddick in 04 or 05.
Miami vs Fed (their first meeting)
Federer 08 RG Final. Nadal's best performance for me. Just destroyed Federer.
Verdasco at the Aussie Open SF.
Fed Aussie Open final some years ago .
PS: Loved the USO final vs Djoko which had the rain delays and ended really late.
Davis Cup vs Roddick in 04 or 05.
Miami vs Fed (their first meeting)
Federer 08 RG Final. Nadal's best performance for me. Just destroyed Federer.
Verdasco at the Aussie Open SF.
Fed Aussie Open final some years ago .
PS: Loved the USO final vs Djoko which had the rain delays and ended really late.
Fedrer will at least win one more Wimbledon title before his retirement.
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The 2015 Wimbledon semi vs Murray was a masterclass in serving and grabbing opportunities (unFed-like).
That tie break Federer just played from 0:3 down....
Great funnest tennis player of all time. J McEnroe.
And there's a solid chance it's gonna be this year's tournament now
Be disappointing if he failed from here.
Stubbornly refuses to let age stop him. Just keeps being really rather good and waiting for opportunities.
Hope so.
Nadal took french open, Ofcourse fedrer had to make up with wimbeldon
, Just like old times.Agreed. I've got loads of respect for that guy's drive. He's done it all and is still hungry.
I'm with you. I'm a Murray fan, but I'm never upset to see Federer win.
It is deliciously ironic that the old man pundits wrote off post 2010 may end up outlasting all of his younger foes.
Nadal took french open, Ofcourse fedrer had to make up with wimbeldon