Glazers / Woodward out! (One down)

BR7 said:
It is a nice post but are we then saying that if the manager is useless we should keep him?

I wrote a long post about this on another thread, we should be looking at three things here in my opinion

1) the glazers. - bleeding club of money and clueless
2) Woodward. - accountant but knows nothing about football or how to actually run an already well set up club
3) ole. - the manager. He is not Man Utd material same as the players. He should never have got the job and we need to shed him too.

All three are a problem in their own way. Ole sadly was either too arrogant to see what he’s was being used for when he accepted the job or even worst believed he had a right to the job, or too stupid sadly to not see what was coming.

We can’t use the Woodward/glazer excuse to not haul ole out of the role as well. So yes, another manager please.
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Glazer's main fault is sticking with Ed. Money has been made available and spent.

Ole is definitely not the man but needed at the moment to do a job. I'm really hoping Glazer's will get rid of Ed on football side and give it to someone who knows what they're actually doing.
 
Douglas Crockett said:
You raise some very good questions.

Yes we have spent a ton of money in the last five years which has not been reflected in an improvement of the team. One response, as you suggest, is to reign in spending. Another, in my opinion better, response is to replace the person who is spending all that money in a way that is wasteful.

It's not just that individual purchases can be criticized with 20-20 hindsight vision. It's the failure to recognize critical needs that the team has and fail to to recognize what the team doesn't need. What's so bad about the Sanchez purchase is not that the player fell apart after the fact but that the trade was ever made. He plays a left attacker. The two young players with the greatest promise on the team also played on the left so bringing in Sanchez put them on the bench. In the long run it weakened the team even if Sanchez played something close to expectations. Buying him did not meet any need that the team had. Our

When Herrera was injured last season it became painfully apparent how critically important he was to the team. OGS' fabulous initial victory run fell apart. The team had no replacement for him nor did they have a replacement for Matic whose shelf life was suddenly expiring. Herrera was permitted to leave for nothing and no replacement was sought for him or for Matic. So for his first full season in charge OGS was handed a team with only one proven Premier League central midfielder, Pogba.

I give OGS credit for rebuilding the team in the only way open for him which was to develop young players. Enter McT and Fred to the CM. But as we are finding out now the team has zero CM replacements. It's impossible to field a successful team in the Premier League without a decent CM.

Today's team cannot provide the ball to our attackers because it lacks a decent CM. So we don't score many goals and our central defense goes unprotected. IMO United's starting 11 are a competitive team for a top four position. The problem is teams have injuries and United don't have the bench, especially in CM, to manage injuries. This is not rocket science.

Woodward has been failing to identify the needs that the team has and invest accordingly in the proper players for six years. It's not a question of hindsight pointing out that a particular trade, like Sanchez, hasn't worked out. It is failing to recognize the teams critical needs and address them.

Where are we today? The team has a critical need for an attacking and a defending CM not to mention that we are one injury away from a debacle with our attackers. We seem to be only addressing one of those three critical needs and that in what has become the predictable flaky United way. It certainly seems like only one of the three critical needs will be addressed at best.

The team is only going to flounder if it's critical needs are not addressed. What will management do? Probably throw OGS to the wolves. His replacement then will make it six managers in the last six years and eight months. That's chaos and it's hard to see an outstanding managerial talent walking into this mess.
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Good post. The issue here is should Woodward or the manager be the one that's identifying team needs? The manager relies on short term results to stay in a job so you can't rely solely on him to drive transfer strategy because he would do so for the short term effects and demand more within two years. Woodward is an Accountant who is also out of his depth.

I think the problem for United since Woodward has come on board has been our failure to secure our first choice targets, particularly in that pathetic 2013 summer. This has resulted in us spending on who we can easily get not who we really want. Van Gaal touched on this when he laid into Woodward in an interview.

When you look at Madrid, Barca and Bayern they take who they want whilst we usually go for those who are available, who already to come or those with tricky contract situations. So for your Sanchez point, I think we went for him because he was gettable not because he was needed and that almost cost us our two promising talents and caused havoc on the wage structure.
 
BR7 said:
It is a nice post but are we then saying that if the manager is useless we should keep him?

I wrote a long post about this on another thread, we should be looking at three things here in my opinion

1) the glazers. - bleeding club of money and clueless
2) Woodward. - accountant but knows nothing about football or how to actually run an already well set up club
3) ole. - the manager. He is not Man Utd material same as the players. He should never have got the job and we need to shed him too.

All three are a problem in their own way. Ole sadly was either too arrogant to see what he’s was being used for when he accepted the job or even worst believed he had a right to the job, or too stupid sadly to not see what was coming.

We can’t use the Woodward/glazer excuse to not haul ole out of the role as well. So yes, another manager please.
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No it's not an excuse not to fire him but The problem as I see it is we need a DOF before a manager.

You hardly think we can trust Ed with the next pick, do you?
 
Lynty said:
What are fans protesting? I haven't got a grasp of all the details so I'm struggling to understand what the Glazers and Ed have done?

Our net spend in the last 5 years has been staggering. 2nd only to city I believe. It hasn't reflected in our performance so obviously that spending is going to be reigned in.

Our recruitment has been poor. Which is easy to say in hindsight.

Ed makes poor footballing decision and needs to appoint a DoF. Which is right. But a protest to demand a DoF is strange.

The debt placed on the club? Has it really restricted our spending.

I'm not defending the Glazers or Ed, I had a conversation with a Liverpool and a Chelsea fan last night and struggled to explain why the board is the problem. They couldn't see it - and I couldn't deny the facts they presented.
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What in the actual feck are you talking about man?
 
Douglas Crockett said:
You raise some very good questions.

Yes we have spent a ton of money in the last five years which has not been reflected in an improvement of the team. One response, as you suggest, is to reign in spending. Another, in my opinion better, response is to replace the person who is spending all that money in a way that is wasteful.

It's not just that individual purchases can be criticized with 20-20 hindsight vision. It's the failure to recognize critical needs that the team has and fail to to recognize what the team doesn't need. What's so bad about the Sanchez purchase is not that the player fell apart after the fact but that the trade was ever made. He plays a left attacker. The two young players with the greatest promise on the team also played on the left so bringing in Sanchez put them on the bench. In the long run it weakened the team even if Sanchez played something close to expectations. Buying him did not meet any need that the team had. Our

When Herrera was injured last season it became painfully apparent how critically important he was to the team. OGS' fabulous initial victory run fell apart. The team had no replacement for him nor did they have a replacement for Matic whose shelf life was suddenly expiring. Herrera was permitted to leave for nothing and no replacement was sought for him or for Matic. So for his first full season in charge OGS was handed a team with only one proven Premier League central midfielder, Pogba.

I give OGS credit for rebuilding the team in the only way open for him which was to develop young players. Enter McT and Fred to the CM. But as we are finding out now the team has zero CM replacements. It's impossible to field a successful team in the Premier League without a decent CM.

Today's team cannot provide the ball to our attackers because it lacks a decent CM. So we don't score many goals and our central defense goes unprotected. IMO United's starting 11 are a competitive team for a top four position. The problem is teams have injuries and United don't have the bench, especially in CM, to manage injuries. This is not rocket science.

Woodward has been failing to identify the needs that the team has and invest accordingly in the proper players for six years. It's not a question of hindsight pointing out that a particular trade, like Sanchez, hasn't worked out. It is failing to recognize the teams critical needs and address them.

Where are we today? The team has a critical need for an attacking and a defending CM not to mention that we are one injury away from a debacle with our attackers. We seem to be only addressing one of those three critical needs and that in what has become the predictable flaky United way. It certainly seems like only one of the three critical needs will be addressed at best.

The team is only going to flounder if it's critical needs are not addressed. What will management do? Probably throw OGS to the wolves. His replacement then will make it six managers in the last six years and eight months. That's chaos and it's hard to see an outstanding managerial talent walking into this mess.
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So the problem is, as I suspected, we haven't got anyone making good long term footballing decisions. It's a recruitment issue, not an owner issue and someone needs to be held accountable for our decline over the course of the last 7 years. Fingers are pointed at Ed or the Glazers.

Given some of the abuse I've seen directed at the Glazers on here, I honeslty thought it was something deeper.

In reality, a strong DoF is all that's needed - as the current board are unqualified to make footballing decisions.


entropy said:
What in the actual feck are you talking about man?
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I welcome your input.
 
Lynty said:
So the problem is, as I suspected, we haven't got anyone making good long term footballing decisions. It's a recruitment issue, not an owner issue and someone needs to be held accountable for our decline over the course of the last 7 years. Fingers are pointed at Ed or the Glazers.

Given some of the abuse I've seen directed at the Glazers on here, I honeslty thought it was something deeper.

In reality, a strong DoF is all that's needed - as the current board are unqualified to make footballing decisions.

I welcome your input.
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I'm sorry but have you been living under a rock?

Man Utd has quite literally become a laughing stock.

There's been a complete mismanagement of the football part of the football club.

This is quite important to most fans hence the anger.
 
Withnail said:
I'm sorry but have you been living under a rock?

Man Utd has quite literally become a laughing stock.

There's been a complete mismanagement of the football part of the football club.

This is quite important to most fans hence the anger.
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Yea. It's all wrong and toxic won't get sorted till correct people have been brought in place to look after it all.
 
Lynty said:
So the problem is, as I suspected, we haven't got anyone making good long term footballing decisions. It's a recruitment issue, not an owner issue and someone needs to be held accountable for our decline over the course of the last 7 years. Fingers are pointed at Ed or the Glazers.

Given some of the abuse I've seen directed at the Glazers on here, I honeslty thought it was something deeper.

In reality, a strong DoF is all that's needed - as the current board are unqualified to
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Glazer's are to blame for not asking questions of Ed a lot earlier. But there are 6 owners. Are they all on the same page?

Ed has tried to do it all on his own by not bringing in a DoF and more help. He has brought no vision or plan to the football.
 
Lynty said:
So the problem is, as I suspected, we haven't got anyone making good long term footballing decisions. It's a recruitment issue, not an owner issue and someone needs to be held accountable for our decline over the course of the last 7 years. Fingers are pointed at Ed or the Glazers.

Given some of the abuse I've seen directed at the Glazers on here, I honeslty thought it was something deeper.

In reality, a strong DoF is all that's needed - as the current board are unqualified to make footballing decisions.




I welcome your input.
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That's a grave misconception from your part. When the Glazers took over the club they put a huge debt on it to be able to fund the purchase, this debt wasn't taken to invest back in the club (as some seem to think, not saying you do) but to fund their purchase.

The initial interest rates were so high that our spending power on the market was crippled. For the initial 8 years of their take-over SAF had a net spend of 13M/year, 'No value in the market' was just a nicer way for SAF to say, I don't have the funds for absolute top players. During this same period clubs like Chelsea, City, Real, Barca outspent us by more than 500M each, you have to remember that the 500M more was in a market where players like Ronaldo went for under 100M.

The Glazer crippled the clubs spending power for a decade, we replaced players like Ronaldo and Tevez with Valencia and and an ageing Owen but SAFs brilliance masked our decline. By the end of Moyes tenure we had a complete rebuild on our hands, some fans even blamed SAF for keeping his old players and never replacing them, called him a sentimental old man. Truth is he never had the funds to replace them with younger players of equal quality. When the Glazers opened their wallets there was a massive job ahead. Instead of being pro-active, the Glazers waited to give funds until it all went to hell.

The DOF you're talking about should have put in place right after Moyes departure, but Woodward chose to keep his fingers in any dealings and decisions. Making knee-jerk decision after knee-jerk decision that put us where we are now and the Glazers kept him on the job despite this.

In another knee-jerk reaction Woodward gives Ole the job on a permanent basis and decides that Ole (A manager inexperienced at this level) and him himself (A knee-jerking CEO who has failed miserably on the football side) will handle the 3rd or is it 4th? I've lost count, rebuild of one of the biggest clubs in the world.

The Glazers take-over and debt facilitated our decline, Woodward made it worse.
 
Denis79 said:
That's a grave misconception from your part. When the Glazers took over the club they put a huge debt on it to be able to fund the purchase, this debt wasn't taken to invest back in the club (as some seem to think, not saying you do) but to fund their purchase.

The initial interest rates were so high that our spending power on the market was crippled. For the initial 8 years of their take-over SAF had a net spend of 13M/year, 'No value in the market' was just a nicer way for SAF to say, I don't have the funds for absolute top players. During this same period clubs like Chelsea, City, Real, Barca outspent us by more than 500M each, you have to remember that the 500M more was in a market where players like Ronaldo went for under 100M.

The Glazer crippled the clubs spending power for a decade, we replaced players like Ronaldo and Tevez with Valencia and and an ageing Owen but SAFs brilliance masked our decline. By the end of Moyes tenure we had a complete rebuild on our hands, some fans even blamed SAF for keeping his old players and never replacing them, called him a sentimental old man. Truth is he never had the funds to replace them with younger players of equal quality. When the Glazers opened their wallets there was a massive job ahead. Instead of being pro-active, the Glazers waited to give funds until it all went to hell.

The DOF you're talking about should have put in place right after Moyes departure, but Woodward chose to keep his fingers in any dealings and decisions. Making knee-jerk decision after knee-jerk decision that put us where we are now and the Glazers kept him on the job despite this.

In another knee-jerk reaction Woodward gives Ole the job on a permanent basis and decides that Ole (A manager inexperienced at this level) and him himself (A knee-jerking CEO who has failed miserably on the football side) will handle the 3rd or is it 4th? I've lost count, rebuild of one of the biggest clubs in the world.

The Glazers take-over and debt facilitated our decline, Woodward made it worse.
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Accountant in charge of making Football decisions. Once the Glazers put him in charge that was the end.
 
Denis79 said:
That's a grave misconception from your part. When the Glazers took over the club they put a huge debt on it to be able to fund the purchase, this debt wasn't taken to invest back in the club (as some seem to think, not saying you do) but to fund their purchase.

The initial interest rates were so high that our spending power on the market was crippled. For the initial 8 years of their take-over SAF had a net spend of 13M/year, 'No value in the market' was just a nicer way for SAF to say, I don't have the funds for absolute top players. During this same period clubs like Chelsea, City, Real, Barca outspent us by more than 500M each, you have to remember that the 500M more was in a market where players like Ronaldo went for under 100M.

The Glazer crippled the clubs spending power for a decade, we replaced players like Ronaldo and Tevez with Valencia and and an ageing Owen but SAFs brilliance masked our decline. By the end of Moyes tenure we had a complete rebuild on our hands, some fans even blamed SAF for keeping his old players and never replacing them, called him a sentimental old man. Truth is he never had the funds to replace them with younger players of equal quality. When the Glazers opened their wallets there was a massive job ahead. Instead of being pro-active, the Glazers waited to give funds until it all went to hell.

The DOF you're talking about should have put in place right after Moyes departure, but Woodward chose to keep his fingers in any dealings and decisions. Making knee-jerk decision after knee-jerk decision that put us where we are now and the Glazers kept him on the job despite this.

In another knee-jerk reaction Woodward gives Ole the job on a permanent basis and decides that Ole (A manager inexperienced at this level) and him himself (A knee-jerking CEO who has failed miserably on the football side) will handle the 3rd or is it 4th? I've lost count, rebuild of one of the biggest clubs in the world.

The Glazers take-over and debt facilitated our decline, Woodward made it worse.
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Thank you. Well reasoned response. I was aware if the debt taken to purchase the club but I didn't review our net spend whilst SAF was here compared to our rivals. The fact is, debt hasn't crippled our spending post SAF though, but argueably the damage had already been done.

entropy said:
Just keep passing the blunt mate.
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Why continue to respond if you have nothing worthwhile to offer.
 
Lynty said:
Thank you. Well reasoned response. I was aware if the debt taken to purchase the club but I didn't review our net spend whilst SAF was here compared to our rivals. The fact is, debt hasn't crippled our spending post SAF though, but argueably the damage had already been done.



Why continue to respond if you have nothing worthwhile to offer.
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You're right, we've matched the spending power of almost any club in the world post SAF but we had a complete rebuild on our hands, Clubs like City, Barca, Real etc just used that money to stay ahead, it was never on equal terms.

They had the big advantage that they could afford several mistakes in their transfer dealings, and they all made mistakes but they had a solid team to fall back on, we didn't. We needed all our investments to work, and fast at that.

Players were put under instant pressure to perform because we had no solid back-up caused by the Glazer neglect. Just my opinion but I think this is the reason so many good players failed with us the last couple of years.
 
Lynty said:
Why continue to respond if you have nothing worthwhile to offer.
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But I was being serious. If you can't connect the dots between fans voicing their frustration, zero responsibility from the board, and our current state of affairs. The least you could do is share some of whatever it is you're smoking with the rest of us.
 
entropy said:
But I was being serious. If you can't connect the dots between fans voicing their frustration, zero responsibility from the board, and our current state of affairs. The least you could do is share some of whatever it is you're smoking with the rest of us.
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I haven't learned anything new.

In my opinion we have mildly bad owners who's biggest fault is placing full trust in a Executive whom has no footballing experience and has too much pride to admit his mistakes. The purchase of the club is a different matter. But with the money made available to rectify the squad and the wages we are prepared to offer, we've had more than ample opportunity to build a starting 11 capable of challenging for the title since SAF left.

It's been squandered by people who we should have been able to trust and Ed didn't have the credentials to tell them otherwise.

In any other business this is a classic example of a recruitment problem.
 
I honestly think people don’t understand what Ed Woodward does. I read comments on here and it’s borderline that people think he actually scouts and signs players on his own. I have no love for Ed Woodward because of what he did to Rio who was one of my favourites but objectivity needs to happen.

You want to talk about a Glazer stooge let’s look at David Gill. That man habitually failed to land our targets. Despite being one of the biggest clubs in the world, If we ever had competition for a player we’d usually lose. That’s changed. Other thing is this obsession with the DOF. How is DOF going to change Mourinho’s tenure? No competent DOF would ever suggest selling Martial and spending a bomb on Perisic. Mourinho doesn’t get what he wants and he acts like an ex-girlfriend. A DOF changes nothing for Mourinho who was the most qualified managed we’ve had
 
Lynty said:
I haven't learned anything new.

In my opinion we have mildly bad owners who's biggest fault is placing full trust in a Executive whom has no footballing experience and has too much pride to admit his mistakes. The purchase of the club is a different matter. But with the money made available to rectify the squad and the wages we are prepared to offer, we've had more than ample opportunity to build a starting 11 capable of challenging for the title since SAF left.

It's been squandered by people who we should have been able to trust and Ed didn't have the credentials to tell them otherwise.

In any other business this is a classic example of a recruitment problem.
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I think you are deluded to think we have "mildly bad" owners. Neither Arsenal, Liverpool, or even Chelsea have dominated the league as we have over the last 30 years. To take that legacy and shit all over it is a huge feck up whichever way to try to spin in. And please do yourself a favor and stop using corporate lingo. It is cringeworthy. You are on a fan forum not some weekend company bonding session.
 
entropy said:
I think you are deluded to think we have "mildly bad" owners. Neither Arsenal, Liverpool, or even Chelsea have dominated the league as we have over the last 30 years. To take that legacy and shit all over it is a huge feck up whichever way to try to spin in. And please do yourself a favor and stop using corporate lingo. It is cringeworthy. You are on a fan forum not some weekend company bonding session.
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What? Corporate lingo? Haha

Dynasties have a shelf life, your deluded if you think otherwise.

I actually don't think you no your own reasoning for disliking the Glazers. It's fashionable and gives you someone to blame so you go along with it.
 
manutddjw said:
I honestly think people don’t understand what Ed Woodward does. I read comments on here and it’s borderline that people think he actually scouts and signs players on his own. I have no love for Ed Woodward because of what he did to Rio who was one of my favourites but objectivity needs to happen.

You want to talk about a Glazer stooge let’s look at David Gill. That man habitually failed to land our targets. Despite being one of the biggest clubs in the world, If we ever had competition for a player we’d usually lose. That’s changed. Other thing is this obsession with the DOF. How is DOF going to change Mourinho’s tenure? No competent DOF would ever suggest selling Martial and spending a bomb on Perisic. Mourinho doesn’t get what he wants and he acts like an ex-girlfriend. A DOF changes nothing for Mourinho who was the most qualified managed we’ve had
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That's blatant piss taking, any DOF with half a brain could have seen the side that finished 2nd needed a cb and a rw and spent money on that, not spent 50mn on fred and be done for the window. A DOF would have made sure we didn't stupidly lose most of our midfield under OGS and replace it with no one.
 
Lynty said:
What? Corporate lingo? Haha

Dynasties have a shelf life, your deluded if you think otherwise.

I actually don't think you no your own reasoning for disliking the Glazers. It's fashionable and gives you someone to blame so you go along with it.
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This isn't american sports mate, given the money involved and inherent inequality in football, a competent management will not allow a utd esque dive down the table. You think city or liverpool will suddenly turn into rubbish for 6-7 years if klopp and pep left today?
 
SmallCaine said:
That's blatant piss taking, any DOF with half a brain could have seen the side that finished 2nd needed a cb and a rw and spent money on that, not spent 50mn on fred and be done for the window. A DOF would have made sure we didn't stupidly lose most of our midfield under OGS and replace it with no one.
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So this has been confirmed by numerous sources. We have scouts who look for players and suggest them to our manager. At the end of the day our manager has the final say. If he wants them we go after them. If he says no, interest is over. Ed or whoever is DOF is not going to go into business for themselves and sign for the hell of it. A DOF would still work for the Glazers and no person in business spends money if they don’t have to.
 
manutddjw said:
So this has been confirmed by numerous sources. We have scouts who look for players and suggest them to our manager. At the end of the day our manager has the final say. If he wants them we go after them. If he says no, interest is over. Ed or whoever is DOF is not going to go into business for themselves and sign for the hell of it. A DOF would still work for the Glazers and no person in business spends money if they don’t have to.
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He wanted a cb, it was widely reported we refused to sign maguire last season.
 
Fergie managed the team, was DoF, looked way ahead than just the next season working closely with the scouts.
The Glazers were living off his work.
Now he is gone, the rocks are showing.

The club is inseparable from the community it was forged from.
We will only have our club back when these parasites are gone.
There should be no let up on the Glazers Out agenda.
 
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