General Election 2017 | Cabinet reshuffle: Hunt re-appointed Health Secretary for record third time

[11101]

How so? I agree with him, it's basically what all western nations do...

And look where it's got us...

That kind of thinking is how people, companies and countries go bankrupt.

At some point there may be another recession, borrowing costs may spiral, our population may age, there may be a major war, etc etc. In reality all those are likely to happen.

A sensible policy would be to put some away for a rainy day (Norway, Japan etc) and make sure the debt remains within manageable limits. Ours is currently amongst the highest in the world and growing again. Others with high debt like the US know it's a problem and try to reduce it.

 

[RedTillI'mDead]

Interesting polls on here, suggests 45.2 percent of United forum users are on the dole!

 

[berbatrick]

Labour already below the 45% Caf threshold of 2015. Sad!

 

[Cheesy]

Tory surge!

 

[Abizzz]

And look where it's got us...

The two 'situations' currently troubling the most are Brexit and Trump. I'm not convinced higher taxes and/or lower spending would have prevented either. If you are referring to countries like Greece... they borrowed a lot more than their economic growth merited,

That kind of thinking is how people, companies and countries go bankrupt.

I agree that it is a highly risky strategy for an individual. Companies need to invest to grow, very few manage to do that solely out of past profits.
Countries however are an entirely different story...

At some point there may be another recession, borrowing costs may spiral, our population may age, there may be a major war, etc etc. In reality all those are likely to happen.

True, and that has to be accounted for. I'd rather have our political classes thinking they can't afford a major war though, it's not as if that was non-factor in the decision to go to war. Borrowing costs won't spiral in any time soon, and the population will age regardless. I would rather have a decent infrastructure for an old population then a large government fund.

A sensible policy would be to put some away for a rainy day (Norway, Japan etc) and make sure the debt remains within manageable limits. Ours is currently amongst the highest in the world and growing again with no sign of anyone caring. Others with high debt like the US know it's a problem and try to reduce it.

The US currently have the Republicans back in power. We won't hear about America's debts again until 2021 (It's their populist stick to beat the democrats with). Norway has the only successful state fund I know of, and it wouldn't be possible without their oil fortune, I don't see how that is comparable to other western nations. Japan is highly indebted to its own population.

Obviously growing through debt needs to be done responsible though... can always have a discussion if that is the case or the money is simply being wasted.

 

[DOTA]

Interesting polls on here, suggests 45.2 percent of United forum users are on the dole!

I take offense at this.

Just cause I don't vote Labour doesn't mean I'm not a work-shy freeloader!

 

[11101]

The two 'situations' currently troubling the most are Brexit and Trump. I'm not convinced higher taxes and/or lower spending would have prevented either. If you are referring to countries like Greece... they borrowed a lot more than their economic growth merited,

I'm talking in a more general sense about the debt loaded society we're now in. Greece's economic situation as far as deficit and debt as percentages of GDP go weren't so far removed from the UK at the beginning of the recession. That first round of increased yields on the issued debt didn't seem like much at the time but sparked a meltdown.

True, and that has to be accounted for. I'd rather have our political classes thinking they can't afford a major war though, it's not as if that was non-factor in the decision to go to war. Borrowing costs won't spiral in any time soon, and the population will age regardless. I would rather have a decent infrastructure for an old population then a large government fund.

Borrowing costs have been at record lows, and are just starting to increase again as gilt yields rise. Its actually extremely likely borrowing costs will rise significantly in the coming years.

People age but that's different from an ageing population, which we are certain to have as people live longer and the increased births during the 60s/70s approach retirement. Someone needs to pay for their pensions, healthcare etc. and there are less kids now to do it.

The US currently have the Republicans back in power. We won't hear about America's debts again until 2021 (It's their populist stick to beat the democrats with). Norway has the only successful state fund I know of, and it wouldn't be possible without their oil fortune, I don't see how that is comparable to other western nations. Japan is highly indebted to its own population.

Obviously growing through debt needs to be done responsible though... can always have a discussion if that is the case or the money is simply being wasted.

Side point but we had the same oil fortune as Norway. We just wasted ours. Japan has the world's largest pension fund at $1.4 trillion. Its their way of dealing with the cultural and demographic issues in the country.

Point is there are different ways of dealing with the issues, and any one or two on their own won't harm us. But the mantra of spend spend spend without any thought of potential consequences has been proven dangerous and will only get worse as our deficit/debt increases.

 

[ThierryHenry]

Fair enough. I have misinterpreted his position but he seems woolly and unclear on the whole issue.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...backs-post-brexit-membership-eu-single-market

He wants single market access only with his own choice of cherry picking. The 'a la carte' type of deal that we are told is not on the table.

My main issue with Corbyn and Brexit is that I don't believe he has the intellectual capacity to understand all the complex issues involved. You hear him talk about Brexit now or during the referendum and he's either very uncomfortable or goes back to his stump speech about workers rights and the Tories turning Britain into a tax haven. Both are important issues but aren't really anything to do with the negotiations, nor is either a realistic possibility - they would amount to electoral suicide. The complexities of what needs to be agreed are frankly staggering, and every article I read that further highlights what we're likely to lose when we finally leave should be used every single day as an attack against the Tory government. He either doesn't understand, or doesn't care about the clear risks within Brexit as I've never heard him persuadably argue them. Most likely it's a combination of the two.

The main loss obviously being the single market, where Corbyn and McDonnell are at best just agnostic, and only historically hostile. This is a ludicrous perspective to have, and flies in the face of any rational analysis. That they aren't attacking the government for allowing us to sleepwalk out of the largest free trade block in the world is reckless and unforgivable. I can't wait until he leaves the party.

 

[Untied]

So.

The Daily Heil have an exclusive that it will be a tory manifesto to end free movement

Source

How she phrases the ECJ point is fairly important. I thought she'd rowed back on that since the autumn, presumably after someone explained how problematic that would be.

I should I imagine they would have the exclusive given they wrote the manifesto.

She's just adopted UKIP's 2015 manifesto

 

[rcoobc]

Oh plsIm so sick of the bigot and small mind people who remote right wing or Conservative leanings. Seriously, stop taerring us all with the same bush! I consider myself rather moderate, I welcomed the LD coalit - if anything for the sake of moderat, for money. I'm not a millionaire, but a Sun-reading white man who doesn't like committee, I'm just a normal working (and educated) family man who believes Corbyn's brand of politics is commie.

Seriously, feck off.

Hey, see still my posts defending the Tories and what they have done since 2010. And likewise what Labour failed to do. I'm only speculating on why we are so lefty.

 

[buckooo1978]

if only this poll was reflective of reality

 

[Nogbadthebad]

I'm talking in a more general sense about the debt loaded society we're now in. Greece's economic situation as far as deficit and debt as percentages of GDP go weren't so far removed from the UK at the beginning of the recession. That first round of increased yields on the issued debt didn't seem like much at the time but sparked a meltdown.

If you are comparing the UK with greece, all you are telling me is that you have precisely no clue about the topic at hand.

Greece is in a mess for two reasons, firstly it falsified its accounts to get into the Euro (with the help of Goldman Sachs), and secondly, it is in the euro.

We have a soveriegn currency and access to all available capital controls to control both debt itself and the cost of debt for both the nation and the people within it. Greece is up shite creek without a paddle because they have neither, and are struggling with fiscal controls designed for prosperous, productive economies, in particular France and Germany.

The idea we could 'be like greece' was absolute nonsense when cameron said it, the difference between you and him is he knew it was a lie when he said it, you repeat it because you know no better.

 

[Crossie]

My main issue with Corbyn and Brexit is that I don't believe he has the intellectual capacity to understand all the complex issues involved.

Granted, I do not know British politicians very well but from the outside, I'm not under the impression that prominent Tories, including May, Johnson, Davies, do understand the complexity either. May is a control freak and loves to get involved in every little detail, that's clear, but that doesn't mean she understands the complexity of the task.

Can somebody explain to me how it generally works with party manifestos in the UK, do party leaders assemble them and the whole party must in some way vote for them, or do just certain party members vote for it? Sorry for my ignorance so far on this point and TIA.

 

[11101]

If you are comparing the UK with greece, all you are telling me is that you have precisely no clue about the topic at hand.

Greece is in a mess for two reasons, firstly it falsified its accounts to get into the Euro (with the help of Goldman Sachs), and secondly, it is in the euro.

We have a soveriegn currency and access to all available capital controls to control both debt itself and the cost of debt for both the nation and the people within it. Greece is up shite creek without a paddle because they have neither, and are struggling with fiscal controls designed for prosperous, productive economies, in particular France and Germany.

The idea we could 'be like greece' was absolute nonsense when cameron said it, the difference between you and him is he knew it was a lie when he said it, you repeat it because you know no better.

Greece is in a mess because the markets realised the debt they were buying wasn't what they thought they were buying.

The catalyst was the lying about their accounts, but the cause was fairly simple. They were borrowing and spending at a far higher rate than the GDP was growing. When everyone realised the GDP was even lower than first thought they bailed on the country and they could no longer afford to borrow anymore.

 

[2 man midfield]

I've always been a labour man but is there any point? The Lib Dems might stand a better chance at this rate.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

My main issue with Corbyn and Brexit is that I don't believe he has the intellectual capacity to understand all the complex issues involved. You hear him talk about Brexit now or during the referendum and he's either very uncomfortable or goes back to his stump speech about workers rights and the Tories turning Britain into a tax haven. Both are important issues but aren't really anything to do with the negotiations, nor is either a realistic possibility - they would amount to electoral suicide. The complexities of what needs to be agreed are frankly staggering, and every article I read that further highlights what we're likely to lose when we finally leave should be used every single day as an attack against the Tory government. He either doesn't understand, or doesn't care about the clear risks within Brexit as I've never heard him persuadably argue them. Most likely it's a combination of the two.

The main loss obviously being the single market, where Corbyn and McDonnell are at best just agnostic, and only historically hostile. This is a ludicrous perspective to have, and flies in the face of any rational analysis. That they aren't attacking the government for allowing us to sleepwalk out of the largest free trade block in the world is reckless and unforgivable. I can't wait until he leaves the party.

I can only interpret his performance around Brexit as him wanting a hard Brexit but being unable to back it politically.

Labour are so badly organised under him that the possibility of having him in charge of Brexit negotiations worries me more than having the Tories in charge.

I know the Corbynistas will counter that the Tories look all at sea at the moment, given the complexities involved anyone would, but I believe the Tories have a better grasp on the fundamental mechanics of government and can better get their party working together.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

I know the Corbynistas will counter that the Tories look all at seas at the moment, given the complexities involved anyone would, but I believe the Tories have a better grasp on the fundamental mechanics of government and can better get their party working together.

This is a a weird line of reasoning tbh. Competent malice is preferable to clueless goodwill?

 

[Unmutual]

This is a a weird line of reasoning tbh. Competent malice is preferable to clueless goodwill?

Someone I saw on Facebook put it this way - you're stuck in a plane and the pilot's taking you somewhere you don't want to go. Is it better to replace that person with someone who doesn't know how to fly at all? Most people would say no.

 

[golden_blunder]

This is a a weird line of reasoning tbh. Competent malice is preferable to clueless goodwill?

That's what Americans thought and look what happened there

 

[Classical Mechanic]

This is a a weird line of reasoning tbh. Competent malice is preferable to clueless goodwill?

What malice are you talking about exactly?

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

What malice are you talking about exactly?

Workers rights, the NHS, fair taxation, presumably if you care about those things. And the economy, not like the Tories have been pulling up trees on that regard anyway.

Just puzzled because I got that you are disenchanted by Corbyn but to actually prefer Tories in power is strange indeed.

 

[Unmutual]

Workers rights, the NHS, fair taxation, presumably if you care about those things. And the economy, not like the Tories have been pulling up trees on that regard anyway.

Just puzzled because I got that you are disenchanted by Corbyn but to actually prefer Tories in power is strange indeed.

Malice? Seriously, the left has to get over the belief that it is morally right and therefore anyone who disagrees is either wittingly or unwittingly morally wrong. Not least because bad analysis leads to bad solutions.

 

[Snowjoe]

I've always been a labour man but is there any point? The Lib Dems might stand a better chance at this rate.

Depends where you live to be honest. Where I live then the non Tory option is only lib dem in reality. But in a different constituency that might not be the case.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Workers rights, the NHS, fair taxation, presumably if you care about those things. And the economy, not like the Tories have been pulling up trees on that regard anyway.

Just puzzled because I got that you are disenchanted by Corbyn but to actually prefer Tories in power is strange indeed.

All EU law is being transferred into UK law initially and from what David Davis is saying that is at least until a new trade deal with the EU is arranged.

On the Brexit issue in isolation I trust the Tories to handle it better than Corbyn's Labour. Regarding overarching ideology then no.

The Brexit deal is the most crucial event in British politics since WW2. Labour haven't even detailed a serious plan for the deal and Corbyn doesn't even seem interested in engaging with the issue seriously FFS! Add to that the Labour party being badly fractured from within.

Regarding employee rights, if in future the Tories do start policies to erode them, I believe that would be the centre or left's best avenue to start challenging them again.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

Malice? Seriously, the left has to get over the belief that it is morally right and therefore anyone who disagrees is either wittingly or unwittingly morally wrong. Not least because bad analysis leads to bad solutions.

What do you call knowingly advancing policies that hurt the most vulnerable in society?

 

[Classical Mechanic]

What do you call knowingly advancing policies that hurt the most vulnerable in society?

Those policies are nothing to with Brexit though.

 

[Unmutual]

What do you call knowingly advancing policies that hurt the most vulnerable in society?

You actually think the Tories are doing it because it hurts the most vulnerable?

 

[2 man midfield]

Depends where you live to be honest. Where I live then the non Tory option is only lib dem in reality. But in a different constituency that might not be the case.

I think I'm right in saying the south west has been strongly liberal in recent years. I'd have to check that though.

 

[Snowjoe]

I think I'm right in saying the south west has been strongly liberal in recent years. I'd have to check that though.

It's gone very blue recently although considering there's a fair bit of wealth out here it's not the biggest surprise. I know we were lib dem in Cheltenham until recently, and despite being Tory at the moment we did also vote to remain so a swing back to the Lib Dems is very possible.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

All EU law is being transferred into UK law initially and from what David Davis is saying that is at least until a new trade deal with the EU is arranged.

On the Brexit issue in isolation I trust the Tories to handle it better than Corbyn's Labour. Regarding overarching ideology then no.

The Brexit deal is the most crucial event in British politics since WW2. Labour haven't even detailed a serious plan for the deal and Corbyn doesn't even seem interested in engaging with the issue seriously FFS! Add to that the Labour party being badly fractured from within.

Regarding employee rights, if in future the Tories do start policies to erode them, I believe that would be the centre or left's best avenue to start challenging them again.

Fair enough. I however must say that as several already pointed out, May and her crew hardly seemed more clued up about the negotiations, ricocheting between soft and hard as it's politically expedient. In that regard, it'd be hoping against hope that they'd handle it competently.

Anyway, I will leave it to you British folks to duke it out now.

 

[Kentonio]

That's what Americans thought and look what happened there

Anyone who thought Trump represented 'goodwill' needs their brain examining.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

You actually think the Tories are doing it because it hurts the most vulnerable?

Hate to invoke Godwin's, but do you think Hitler thought himself evil?

It's the consequences of those actions that count.

 

[golden_blunder]

Anyone who thought Trump represented 'goodwill' needs their brain examining.

I mean voting for something different as its construed to be less dangerous. As we see now, that's a bad line of thinking.

 

[Abizzz]

On the Brexit issue in isolation I trust the Tories to handle it better than Corbyn's Labour. Regarding overarching ideology then no.

The Brexit deal is the most crucial event in British politics since WW2.

Why though? The Tories brought about Brexit recklessly because of internal Tory problems (against their own stated wishes). They said they'd trigger Article 50 the next day (in which case everything would be a lot further already). They've been promising unrealistic outcomes of the negotiations at every chance they get, and just to make sure they have the worst possible chances they send those to their European partners who have antagonized them endlessly (Johnson etc.). They are now largely being led by the wing of party that was pro-brexit, and who helped bring it about with a huge volume of disinformation.

U.K government policy is now being released via the Telegraph and the Daily Mail (It's no coincidence the Telegraph had a leading article about how May should use security as a bargaining chip hours before she did). The list goes on and on.

I don't see how Corbyn (or anyone sane) could do much worse.

 

[Kentonio]

All EU law is being transferred into UK law initially and from what David Davis is saying that is at least until a new trade deal with the EU is arranged.

On the Brexit issue in isolation I trust the Tories to handle it better than Corbyn's Labour. Regarding overarching ideology then no.

The Brexit deal is the most crucial event in British politics since WW2. Labour haven't even detailed a serious plan for the deal and Corbyn doesn't even seem interested in engaging with the issue seriously FFS! Add to that the Labour party being badly fractured from within.

Regarding employee rights, if in future the Tories do start policies to erode them, I believe that would be the centre or left's best avenue to start challenging them again.

You're making it sound like employee rights will be endangered at some later date after the dust has settled. Unless I'm completely misreading the situation, the time when they are most at risk is exactly at the point when those EU laws are being rewritten into UK law. They aren't going to just copy them word for word, they're going to 'adapt' them, and before they called this election they were trying to get the power to pass them without parliament with just cabinet approval. Now they don't even have to risk that, with a large majority they can just pass whatever Tory-fied versions of new law that they want.

And who can stop them? They'll have a 5 year mandate, a 100+ majority, and the Murdoch press cheerleading everything they do. If they're not stopped now, then it's going to be far, far too late.

 

[Unmutual]

Hate to invoke Godwin's, but do you think Hitler thought himself evil?

It's the consequences of those actions that count.

The right believes the consequences of limiting workers rights is that it will create more jobs that allow people to advance their their careers.
The right believes that limiting the reach of Government in people's lives allows people to live independently & free from meddling.
The right believes that limiting taxation stimulates a strong economy that makes everyone better off.

You can debate whether these are true or not, I certainly don't agree with any of that. But the Tory party do these things because they sincerely believe they will make people happier and better off.

As for Hitler - be serious.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

You're making it sound like employee rights will be endangered at some later date after the dust has settled. Unless I'm completely misreading the situation, the time when they are most at risk is exactly at the point when those EU laws are being rewritten into UK law. They aren't going to just copy them word for word, they're going to 'adapt' them, and before they called this election they were trying to get the power to pass them without parliament with just cabinet approval. Now they don't even have to risk that, with a large majority they can just pass whatever Tory-fied versions of new law that they want.

And who can stop them? They'll have a 5 year mandate, a 100+ majority, and the Murdoch press cheerleading everything they do. If they're not stopped now, then it's going to be far, far too late.

I think you are mistaken. The laws are being transferred in their entirety and will be exactly the same the day after we leave the EU as they were the day before.

 

[altodevil]

Could do with Dan Miller right now.

 

[2 man midfield]

It's gone very blue recently although considering there's a fair bit of wealth out here it's not the biggest surprise. I know we were lib dem in Cheltenham until recently, and despite being Tory at the moment we did also vote to remain so a swing back to the Lib Dems is very possible.

Interesting. I'll be voting either Lib Dem or Labour I'd say, but I remain open to voting Tory. With Labour in disarray I'm pretty much the definition of a swinging voter.

 

[Adisa]

How the feck can someone who opposes Brexit, vote Tory in this situation?