General discussion thread

harms said:
22 years old Jimmy Greaves scoring 4 goals against Forrest. The last one was really lovely. By the way, I highly recommend all of you to subscribe to this channel, I don't know where he gets them but he regularly posts extended highlights from English league & NT games from the 50's & 60's, including those that I haven't seen anywhere. The only thing that is mildly annoying is his comic sans watermark :o

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Last goal is a lovely move. White is quite under-rated in my view. That Spurs side would have been a great watch.
 
Pat_Mustard said:
BERGKAMP-waste.jpg


Stuart Pearce at his insightful best after Bergkamp's 4th league match for Arsenal :wenger:. You might like this @oneniltothearsenal .
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:lol: Cheers for this. Great insight from Pearce! I love reading these old articles.
 
Pat_Mustard said:
Where's @Synco gone. Haven't seen that fine fellow in these parts for ages.
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Received this a month ago, seems off the draft forum right now

Synco said:
I see you're back again, very nice! I hope you had a good time off the Caf. I'm self-banned myself atm, so I can't post. Perhaps you could post the above on my behalf in that match thread?
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Yeah, he's been taking a break for a couple of months but is available through PM if needed (if I understood that correctly).
 
Maradona of the day #2

Cornel Dinu nonchalantly backheels the ball forward in a World Cup fixture

 
Was thinking about this the other day but afterwards checking the losers final it came back to me and pushed me to post this.

I know drafts are mostly muppet time for everyone but considering most of the regulars have done 100 drafts by now is it time we move more to a bit of realism? Its like we are stuck in a dark room and have no clue whats happening outside of it, football evolved yet we are still in the mud of the past eras.
Regularly seeing teams that get a lot of love with 2 or even 3 players that do feck all off the ball, even though we can see in last 5 years teams struggle to carry even one because when you compete against similar quality team that doesnt carry that one, you are pretty much fecked(not only one but big reasons why any club that currently has either Messi or Ronaldo is fecked at highest level). But considering its drafts, my personal view will always be that you can carry one otherwise some past greats would be fecked and nobody wants to see that. Pick your player and build around him rather then bore us all to feck with squeezing multiple greats in the team(btw this isnt aimed at enigma his team just triggered my thoughts from few days back).

Also, some or even most keepers from the past should be used only in defensive/counter-attacking with a low-ish block. If your intention is to fight for possession and dominate the game in the middle it just doesnt make sense to have a keeper like Schmeichel for example. feck sake you would think at least United fans would be aware of that considering how fecked we are with De Gea in the build-up, specially after seeing both rivals improving immensely after signing the right type of keeper - Ederson and Alisson.

Fully aware im yelling at the clouds and nothing will change but had to let it out.
 
I agree to a large extent with Sjor although it depends of course on the tactics of the opponent. Given today's tactics carrying more than one player is difficult but in drafts with teams adopting a more direct style of play and less pressing overall (classic Fergie tactics for instance) I think it possible. Completely agree on the Ederson and Allison point
 
You have to give a bit of leeway to the older players and assume they will be trained under modern tactics by modern managers and coaches when you play games with modern setups.

Take someone like Rivellino for example, he was not that hard working IMO as compares to how we define a hard working player today. Yet his workrate is almost always brought up in games and he is used to get balance to the team. That is because he was among the better hard working attacking players of his time and if he was in the modern era, there is no question he would have been much better at it.

Santamaria is another example. I was one of them who criticized the feck out of him, but come to think of it, he never played with a covering CB or a sweeper of sorts. In the modern era, I think he is a bit like John Terry, I think you add a Carvalho or Ferdinand alongside Santamaria and he trained in modern 4 day defenses, he would be in the best defenders of most decades. Yet his reputation stands ruined here beyond repair (hopefully not). Hope to pick him sometime when I get a chance and rework on the damage done.
 
Šjor Bepo said:
Regularly seeing teams that get a lot of love with 2 or even 3 players that do feck all off the ball, even though we can see in last 5 years teams struggle to carry even one because when you compete against similar quality team that doesnt carry that one, you are pretty much fecked(not only one but big reasons why any club that currently has either Messi or Ronaldo is fecked at highest level).
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I don't agree with this. Lots of teams have been going through transitions and we don't really have many or any era defining teams active. It also coincides with pressing teams having the right set of players that form a really formidable team. I don't think Klopp's Liverpool beats MSN Barca or the Madrid teams of the last decade in most encounters. Pressing has been the flavor of the month, but I don't think it is something that is set to dominate the top echelons of football for ages.
 
Šjor Bepo said:
Was thinking about this the other day but afterwards checking the losers final it came back to me and pushed me to post this.

I know drafts are mostly muppet time for everyone but considering most of the regulars have done 100 drafts by now is it time we move more to a bit of realism? Its like we are stuck in a dark room and have no clue whats happening outside of it, football evolved yet we are still in the mud of the past eras.
Regularly seeing teams that get a lot of love with 2 or even 3 players that do feck all off the ball, even though we can see in last 5 years teams struggle to carry even one because when you compete against similar quality team that doesnt carry that one, you are pretty much fecked(not only one but big reasons why any club that currently has either Messi or Ronaldo is fecked at highest level). But considering its drafts, my personal view will always be that you can carry one otherwise some past greats would be fecked and nobody wants to see that. Pick your player and build around him rather then bore us all to feck with squeezing multiple greats in the team(btw this isnt aimed at enigma his team just triggered my thoughts from few days back).
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I'm probably a serial culprit, but I'd tend to agree. Compactness is the big one for me. A lot of it depends on other tactics too. For instance, Barcelona 2011 will still dominate any game today despite carrying a version of Messi that doesn't run off the ball, but obviously they get enough graft and enough quality elsewhere in the team. (@GodShaveTheQueen makes the same point).
Also, some or even most keepers from the past should be used only in defensive/counter-attacking with a low-ish block. If your intention is to fight for possession and dominate the game in the middle it just doesnt make sense to have a keeper like Schmeichel for example. feck sake you would think at least United fans would be aware of that considering how fecked we are with De Gea in the build-up, specially after seeing both rivals improving immensely after signing the right type of keeper - Ederson and Alisson.
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Well aye the passback rule was introduced in 1992 so you're looking at keepers who started their education after that to be competent on the ball. I'd say anyone born before the mid-60s is generally going to be poor (there will be exceptions no doubt), anyone born from 1965 to 1975 will have adapted to some extent during their career, and anyone born after that should be pretty capable. And it's likely that any keeper born after 1995 will be an immeasurably better ball-player because they'll have been educated to build up play and to be actual possession players.
 
Im not talking strictly about high press(though think scrappy is in for a surprise IMO as i dont think "flavor of the month" is going anywhere soon, if ever but thats another debate) im talking about intensity in game. Take Atletico team as an example, defending deep, quick direct team that physio is talking about.....every single one working like an absolute bastard and if you dont you feck off. Intensity is there, they press as hard as anyone just on a different part of the pitch.
As for MSN team, its pretty much a one season wonder as they got fecked next every other year the second they faced a serious opponent. Only judging them in CL because Messi afterwards proved he alone is enough to win Barca the league.
Regarding Real, they saw the opportunity where all the big boys were on the down and they take it, nothing against it but part of the reason why majority is very unsure about Zidane even though on paper he has insane record as a manager. Wont even go into detail of their successes and classic Madrid helping from the refs(that red card for Vidal against Bayern is probably the worst decision in history of the competition) but even if you look at the structure of their team it kind off proves my point, they were only carrying Ronaldo off the ball as Benzema was doing a 3 man job and who ever was the third from Isco/Bale was putting a shift in. They were more balanced in their game plan but thats why i said last 5 years because when the top teams recovered the game naturally changed a bit and today if you lack intensity in your game you are fecked. Reason why current United side will do feck all, reason why any team is outplaying PSG at the moment, why Barca struggled for years etc.
 
GodShaveTheQueen said:
You have to give a bit of leeway to the older players and assume they will be trained under modern tactics by modern managers and coaches when you play games with modern setups.

Take someone like Rivellino for example, he was not that hard working IMO as compares to how we define a hard working player today. Yet his workrate is almost always brought up in games and he is used to get balance to the team. That is because he was among the better hard working attacking players of his time and if he was in the modern era, there is no question he would have been much better at it.

Santamaria is another example. I was one of them who criticized the feck out of him, but come to think of it, he never played with a covering CB or a sweeper of sorts. In the modern era, I think he is a bit like John Terry, I think you add a Carvalho or Ferdinand alongside Santamaria and he trained in modern 4 day defenses, he would be in the best defenders of most decades. Yet his reputation stands ruined here beyond repair (hopefully not). Hope to pick him sometime when I get a chance and rework on the damage done.
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Might be wrong but dont think i ever questioned Rivelino in terms of workrate nor should be questioned IMO so yes im giving them leeway but there is a line we just cant cross. If i watch Romario play he walks 95% of the game, its unfair towards players from his and previous era that worked their asses off on the pitch to just assume under different circumstances he would play differently.
Seeler, Gerd Muller, Tostao, Elkjaer, Mark Hughes all players from different parts of the world, different leagues, different eras.....they didnt need modern coaches to apply themself and work hard for their team.

Mind you, i have nothing against Romario, love the little bastard but if and when you pick that type of player, IMO you should build around him rather then going for GOATs, shiny names and something that works on the ball.
 
The trailer looked horrendous so I decided not to.
 


Paul Bonga Bonga
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The first African footballer to be selected in the World Soccer Magazine world XI, when he was chosen in 1961.
The first African stars in football game.
He was on the 1961 World Soccer Magainze world xi with the "household" name like Gento,Puskas,Pele,Di Stefano,Nilton,Blanchflower and Kubala.

Bonga Bonga quote
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"I was a ball-player," he recalled. "It wasn't the same system as today, we played in a WM formation [2-3-5], and I played in any of the midfield positions.

"I could play with either foot, I had good vision, I could dribble, and I was able to really see the play unfolding -- there aren't many who can do this."

Standard's official website compares Bonga Bonga in his pomp to Chelsea and France midfielder N'Golo Kante, but the available footage shows a player who was more creative and more attack-minded than the 2018 World Cup winner. There's no doubt, however, that he shared the France international's appetite for hard running on the field.

"When I had the ball at my feet, I knew exactly what I would do and I saw quickly which of my teammates were free to attack," he continued. "There aren't many who have that quality today.

"There was also one game where I lost two kilos [during the match], it was remarkable."
 
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Very interesting twitter thread. Its counting every key pass, dribble and fouls won by Maradona over his whole carreer. Footage doesn't exist for all the games so only 126 of them will be analyzed. Still a solid sample size.
Can be very useful to assess more accurately his performances.

 
Earvin Johnson said:
Very interesting twitter thread. Its counting every key pass, dribble and fouls won by Maradona over his whole carreer. Footage doesn't exist for all the games so only 126 of them will be analyzed. Still a solid sample size.
Can be very useful to assess more accurately his performances.

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Thanks, that's a great share. Impressive that it's not just stats but footage from all games too.
 
Earvin Johnson said:
Very interesting twitter thread. Its counting every key pass, dribble and fouls won by Maradona over his whole carreer. Footage doesn't exist for all the games so only 126 of them will be analyzed. Still a solid sample size.
Can be very useful to assess more accurately his performances.

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That’s great,I guest that more than 60 percents of 126 matches will be Napoli version for sure,Boca and Argentinos footages aren’t easy to find.

Diego key passes are very interesting that I’ve interested for a long time.
 
Jim Beam said:
Without a shadow of doubt the greatest. Even Messi shat his pants every time he had to fill that boots.
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Thank you for your enlightening contribution

GodShaveTheQueen said:
Thanks, that's a great share. Impressive that it's not just stats but footage from all games too.
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I believe they are using free acess footage, you too can retrieve it from Footballia

General_Elegancia said:
That’s great,I guest that more than 60 percents of 126 matches will be Napoli version for sure,Boca and Argentinos footages aren’t easy to find.

Diego key passes are very interesting that I’ve interested for a long time.
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You are right, i think there were only 10 games analyzed from his time in Argentinos/Boca, so majority of those are from his Napoli stint.
 
Earvin Johnson said:
Very interesting twitter thread. Its counting every key pass, dribble and fouls won by Maradona over his whole carreer. Footage doesn't exist for all the games so only 126 of them will be analyzed. Still a solid sample size.
Can be very useful to assess more accurately his performances.

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Have some mesmerising Messi stats from WC Russia. Will post it tonight.

And yes, you are still welcome.
 
Earvin Johnson said:
Very interesting twitter thread. Its counting every key pass, dribble and fouls won by Maradona over his whole carreer. Footage doesn't exist for all the games so only 126 of them will be analyzed. Still a solid sample size.
Can be very useful to assess more accurately his performances.

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Even from his late teens at Argentinos Juniors, I reckon he's already operating at a best-player-in-the-world level. That direct defence dismantling dribbling probably jhadn't been seen since Pele 20 years earlier and the end product is already off the charts. Granted Zico and Platini were bossing it at all levels, while for Diego it was mainly a matter of getting the platform and conditions to reach a global audience to be recognised as the top dog, but I think the performances were already there.
 
Gio said:
Even from his late teens at Argentinos Juniors, I reckon he's already operating at a best-player-in-the-world level. That direct defence dismantling dribbling probably jhadn't been seen since Pele 20 years earlier and the end product is already off the charts. Granted Zico and Platini were bossing it at all levels, while for Diego it was mainly a matter of getting the platform and conditions to reach a global audience to be recognised as the top dog, but I think the performances were already there.
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Yeah, you get a lot of those remarks (that he is already the best player in the world I mean) in the press/commentary when you watch games with late 70’s/early 80’s Maradona if you’re looking for them.
 
Have an idea similar to the positional greats thing we had.

1. We create a list of 20 greatest football teams of all time excluding the 3 defender era
2. These teams then compete in a league format. We will have 10 fixtures every week like with any league.
3. Create polls (open for 2-3 days maybe) for each game. Winner gets 2 points, 1 point for draw.
4. Will be a long activity since we will have 19 GWs (no home and away fixtures obviously)
5. At the end, we have a points table ranking teams which will be very different as compared to if we just ranked them from 1 to 20.

Sounds really long and tiring that might lose steam and interest half way through, but I do think it would be unique and something that might not have been tried in any corner of the internet.
 
Gio said:
Even from his late teens at Argentinos Juniors, I reckon he's already operating at a best-player-in-the-world level. That direct defence dismantling dribbling probably jhadn't been seen since Pele 20 years earlier and the end product is already off the charts. Granted Zico and Platini were bossing it at all levels, while for Diego it was mainly a matter of getting the platform and conditions to reach a global audience to be recognised as the top dog, but I think the performances were already there.
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I would say if Ballandor was happen in 1979 And 1980(probably very closed to Kalle) he would probably got it twice,he and Zico were the best players in the world during 1979-1981.70s Maradona played as secondary striker and he was much more aggressive in term of scoring.
 
GodShaveTheQueen said:
Have an idea similar to the positional greats thing we had.

1. We create a list of 20 greatest football teams of all time excluding the 3 defender era
2. These teams then compete in a league format. We will have 10 fixtures every week like with any league.
3. Create polls (open for 2-3 days maybe) for each game. Winner gets 2 points, 1 point for draw.
4. Will be a long activity since we will have 19 GWs (no home and away fixtures obviously)
5. At the end, we have a points table ranking teams which will be very different as compared to if we just ranked them from 1 to 20.

Sounds really long and tiring that might lose steam and interest half way through, but I do think it would be unique and something that might not have been tried in any corner of the internet.
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Interesting concept. I think the challenge will be retaining interest over 190 games. How about a straight knockout of the best 16 or 32 in head-to-head ties instead?
 
We could do an old Euros style tournament with 16 sides. Four groups of four who play each other once. Then top 2 go through leading to QFs. Then we would have the SFs and Final.

We could seed it too if that would aid the concept.
 
Agree with the above, a league format means voting on 10 different match ups every week for 19 weeks whilst the fun would obviously come from discussing how the games could potentially turn out. Meaning it's a lot of discussion and voting each week. A 32 or 16 team knockout system does sound like fun though.
 
Yea a straight forward knockout sounds fun too and one that probably will reach a conclusion without burn out. Only thing is draws can kick some good teams out early.
 
On the back of @Himannv post from earlier, shall we do something about the non existent tactics in recent drafts? For example lets take the other SF game:
Šjor Bepo said:
Team Michaelf

My team will play a 4-3-3 formation. In goal we have Oliver Kahn who was player of the tournament at the 2002 World Cup. Partnering the brilliant Baresi in the center of defence is Fulvio Collovati who was part of the team of the tournament at the 1982 World Cup. At fullback we have the defensive solidity of Hottges on the right who was in the Kicker Bundesliga team of the season 3 times as well as winning 66 caps for West Germany and the skill of Ze Roberto providing width on the left.

In midfield, Graeme Souness will play as a holding midfielder with Falcao looking to create opportunities from deep with Bobby Charlton surging forward from midfield to make full use of his marvelous shooting abilities as well as his liking for long range passes helping to get the best out of Rummenigge up front.

In attack, on the right we have the timeless wing wizardry of Stanley Matthews to take full advantage of the opponents injury problems at LB. On the left we have Samuel Eto'o who will use his pace, strength and aerial ability to make the most of Matthews crossing. Centrally we have Karl-Heinz Rummenigge who was in the Kicker Bundesliga team of the season for 6 consecutive seasons winning the Ballon d'Or in 1980 and 1981.




Team P-nut

Villa and Messi as split strikers attacking the channels. Maicon and Conti provide the width to stretch the pitch. Keane in his B2B role and Busquets as a deeper controller. Rivaldo moves central and allows a fluency in attack being able to push forward and take advantage of gaps the front 2 will create.
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@Michaelf7777777 with pretty much standard blueprint of most OPs that we all used from time to time, if not all the time. @P-Nut on the lazy route but considering the state of drafts recently, nobody can blame him. In the end, we found feck all about how the team should play and that should pretty much be the whole point of the OP.....
Something should be done, either via punishment of votes or with rewards im the RR or both. Who knows, it might bring some life back into games
 
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