Gary Neville vs Jamie Carragher on Sanchez

[VP89]

Jaime sounding quite clueless there. Builds his entire argument on one assumption and then beats Sanchez with a stick.

Also claimed only defenders want to play for Jose mourinho.

 

[iam_kramer]

Interesting tit for tat. They are both extremely good pundits and it's very refreshing when you consider the utter tripe you sometimes have the misfortune of listening to.

I understand Gary's point, perhaps we're seeing a new kind of transfer strategy from City, but considering their summer spend, it does look like a bit of a curve ball. I quite liked Gary's point on how a Bosman nowadays isn't as attractive to the buyer, I wonder how much we spent on getting Zlatan here on a Bosman.

Carragher made some sense too, but didn't offer as much thought into the process. I can't see why City wouldn't stump up the rest of the cash. I'm not sure all attackers would rather play for Guardiola than Jose, but I could understand a sizeable percentage thinking that way.

 

[kouroux]

What if the Vpn's are also blocked? Ya, I can only see a blank space there. Thought it's a tweet. And buy the way, YouTube, Twitter, Google, Facebook, all are blocked.

You ask someone you are very close in a country they don't block VPNs to send you a link for one (premium for a year as they're not expensive), then you install it and use it.

 

[RoadTrip]

I do like Carragher as a pundit but on this one he is way off the mark.

1. His argument is on the pretence of a pre-agreed deal with Sanchez. Which is unproven.
2. The idea of City walking away, even if Point 1 was true, is nonsense. There is no history at City to suggest that and financially it makes no sense (per Gary’s point).

Gary on the other hand hit the nail on the head.

If City wanted Sanchez, you wouldn’t let this deal fail due to a few more million. Why? Because if they went into the market to find a similar quality player, unless they’re also on a short contract the overall cost will end up being significantly more than what this transfer would have cost them. So would City with no history of morals before business make a terrible business deal like this? We are talking tens of millions.

It tells me City have pulled out for a completely separate reason,not money or morals related.

 

[RC89]

I actually disagree with both. I think, had Sanchez wage demands been lower and he accepted the package City offered to him, they'd maybe offer more in terms.of transfer/agent fees to push the deal over the line.

It's not a matter of whether they can afford the wages or not. It's the fact that they have a bunch of star players including Aguero, KDB, Silva etc none of whom are on that sort of money and you cannot say Sanchez is on a different level to them and would for sure be their star attacker.

Paying those wages would become prohibitive as it sets a precedent and surely the above players would look for parity. He may not even be a starter for them. Whereas at United, if he was the best paid player, other than Pogba alone, who could expect to be paid just as much?

 

[Snow]

Spot on from Gary there as much as he annoys the shit out of me this last while wholeheartedly agree.
Carragher just not listening to the fact that we are apparently offering arsenal more cash so may not even have city’s bid accepted at that point player can agree whatever he wants

Doesn't matter if Arsenal accept bids or not. Sanchez can talk to whoever he wants since his contract is about to run out. Even if Arsenal accept a bid he can still deny the contract offer and go somewhere else for free. If he's not going to City it will be because City don't want him anymore or that he doesn't want to go. It won't be because of a transfer fee.

 

[Wilt]

Carragher and his handshake crap ....how does he know they had already shook hands? ....was he there?

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Gary Neville's rationalisation of the whole situation is spot on. Nev has facts and figures to back up his argument.

Carragher is just some little child trying to argue his point;talking about handshakes etc. It's a wonder Nev doesn't just walk off saying, " Come back when you can form a constructive argument."

 

[Crashoutcassius]

If city agreed a contract with sanchez before agreeing terms with arsenal isn't that illegal?

 

[pauldyson1uk]

If city agreed a contract with sanchez before agreeing terms with arsenal isn't that illegal?

who apart for Carragher has said any deal was in place ? , there might have been a handshake, but that means nothing.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

Pep trying to cultivate the same culture as barce had in Spain where a yellow card foul is a ban, teams aren't allowed defend against then culturally and it is every players destiny to play for him. Given their power over the media they could achieve this given enough time but I doubt he will stay long past next season.

 

[pauldyson1uk]

Carragher is such an odious weasel

 

[Skills]

Clubs nowadays, usually agree contracts before deciding fees.
If a contract had been agreed, City have the right to say feck off.
Of course nothing matters until papers are signed but clubs offering more money than their competitors is normal.
It must be noted, Carragher isn't saying Sanchez is choosing us because of money.
It's all moot though. City are not willing to pay what Arsenal want.

Then they might as well admit to tapping up and should face disciplinary action for it.

 

[Hughes35]

If he comes to Utd (which looks likely) it looks clear to me that he's simply chosen Utd as a club over City. Both teams can offer whatever transfer Fee, wages and agent fees needed to close the deal so I don't think it's a matter of money at all. Simply the player choosing one club over another (This is still the case if he picks City, Chelsea or PSG)

The thing that is concerning is how the perception is all about how if City were willing to pay a bit extra then the player would be signed, no questions asked. Yes City have Pep and players will want to play for him. However, we have Mou and players will also want to play for him. We have the better stadium, fan base, global brand, history. The only area I can see that City beat us is that they are pretty must guaranteed a PL trophy In a few months.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

who apart for Carragher has said any deal was in place ? , there might have been a handshake, but that means nothing.

If they even met him to shake his hand how is that allowed? Does carra just mean that city agree in principle with his agent that he would join if fee agree with arsenal ? Then tried to short change arsenal and sanchez despite being the richest club in world sport

 

[TheLiverBird]

I actually disagree with both. I think, had Sanchez wage demands been lower and he accepted the package City offered to him, they'd maybe offer more in terms.of transfer/agent fees to push the deal over the line.

It's not a matter of whether they can afford the wages or not. It's the fact that they have a bunch of star players including Aguero, KDB, Silva etc none of whom are on that sort of money and you cannot say Sanchez is on a different level to them and would for sure be their star attacker.

Paying those wages would become prohibitive as it sets a precedent and surely the above players would look for parity. He may not even be a starter for them. Whereas at United, if he was the best paid player, other than Pogba alone, who could expect to be paid just as much?

Sanchez is absolutely quality, no denying that

but £130k-£150k a week better than KDB or Aguero? no chance, unless City are happy to give those 2 players bumper salaries ontop of their already bumper salaries then I think to take on Sanchez and pay him said amount would be too much of a risk on the balancing act of keeping players happy and proportionately valued ect

 

[Thunderhead]

Both made good points but what Carragher is ignoring/missing is everyone wants the best deal for themselves. ManCity were ready to pay 60 Million to sign him in summer now they don't want to pay more than 20 Million. Reason? They have favourable circumstances. Similarly Sanchez might have said ok for x million, but that doesn't mean he should agree for same in Jan. Reason? There is one more club who is willing to pay more.

Totally agree, if we were 3 points clear I think we'd have done the deal but we're well clear and I reckon have other targets lined up for the summer who, whilst they may cost more in transfer fees will be less in wages

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Interesting discussion, though I think they've both missed the point a bit.

I think City make a rod for their own back if they give Sanchez 350K a week. For them, that then means that De Bruyne, Silva, Aguero, maybe even Sterling and Sane can go knocking on the chairman door and asking why a player who isn't that much better then them (or in De Bruyne/Silva's case, isn't) and say why aren't I earning that amount?

For us, the only player that can go have that conversation is Pogba... and maybe De Gea, but then he is a goalkeeper.

 

[dogwithabone]

Sanchez probably indicated to City they were his preferred and perhaps only willing destination last summer. If there was only one club prepared to meet my demands then I’d be making all the right noises.

His head has since been turned by us, he’s obviously back tracked on anything he might have told City and they can’t handle the humiliation.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Paying those wages would become prohibitive as it sets a precedent and surely the above players would look for parity. He may not even be a starter for them. Whereas at United, if he was the best paid player, other than Pogba alone, who could expect to be paid just as much?

It wouldn't, as Neville pointed out on his Twitter, player's are fully aware and accepting that player's leaving near or at the end of their contract get inflated wages.

The argument falls down as if Sanchez had accepted City's offer to leave at the end of his contract, as per the figure released by Di Marzio, he would have been on £400k a week effectively.

 

[Josep Dowling]

Carragher is merely following the media narrative and for once Neville’s defends his club.

There are a lot of Liverpool supporting pundits slating us. Well I remind them they paid £40m for Oxlade Chamberlain with one year left on his contract.

They also tapped up Van Dijk, got away with it because they have spent £75m on a CB. Add to this Keita who they bought a year in advance for well over £50m.

How can any Liverpool fan criticise spending too much money with that recent transfer history?

 

[RC89]

Sanchez is absolutely quality, no denying that

but £130k-£150k a week better than KDB or Aguero? no chance, unless City are happy to give those 2 players bumper salaries ontop of their already bumper salaries then I think to take on Sanchez and pay him said amount would be too much of a risk on the balancing act of keeping players happy and proportionately valued ect

Which is exactly my point. No denying Sanchez is class, but City have a number of players of that sort of level.

 

[RC89]

It wouldn't, as Neville pointed out on his Twitter, player's are fully aware and accepting that player's leaving near or at the end of their contract get inflated wages.

The argument falls down as if Sanchez had accepted City's offer to leave at the end of his contract, as per the figure released by Di Marzio, he would have been on £400k a week effectively.

Not sure if I buy this tbh. If I was KDB, Silva or Aguero and I was going in for contract renewal discussions this summer and Aguero just signs on 300k or whatever the figure might be, I'd want parity. They might understand it and accept that the reason he's getting paid so much is because it's a freebie signing, and still play quite happily for the club. But as soon as renewal talks come up, they have Sanchez wages to point towards.

 

[J_Red 11]

Why would Arsenal accept 20m deal from City when they can get 25m + Mkhytaryan? If I'm Arsenal I will accept the United offer and tell City to increase the bid. 20m is nothing in today's market, what 20m can give you in January windows anyway? They would rather keep him, let him go for free and play him to help the club to get top 4 or win Europa League for CL spot. Sanchez has start 17 league games this season and scored 7 league goals & 3 assists. With that number of stats, are you telling me Arsenal thinks he's the cancer in dressing room? They still relied on him and Sanchez still gave his contribution. So if I'm Arsenal I keep him for 6 month rather than sell him for just 20m.

If City wants him they should have increase the bid, the money shouldn't be an issue here. Remember, City was willing to spend 60m fee last summer and paid 290k per week but Arsenal wanted 70m. I don't know exactly what's going on here but I won't be surprised if Sanchez is actually disappointed with the way how City isn't taking this seriously.

I disagree with if you're an attacking player you'd to sign for Guardiola, what about Zlatan & Eto'o. They prefer to play for Mourinho rather than Pep. Mourinho is a world class manager who has won many trophies like league title & champions league, why wouldn't attacker want to play for him?

Carragher didn't make any sense to me because he's giving a statement with no proof which sounds so biased, it's like he wanted to say that no top attackers would choose United over City & no top attackers would choose Mourinho over Pep. Gary is actually not making statement with no proof, he's actually questioning Manchester City here.

FFS!! Manchester United is still a giant club, most successful club in England, bigger than City & has showing progress in the plan & project to win trophies. Mourinho is still a world class manager just like Pep.

 

[Sparky Rhiwabon]

If Sanchez did "agree a deal with City in the summer" as Carragher is claiming here, isn't that against the rules by City? Transfer ban??

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Not sure if I buy this tbh. If I was KDB, Silva or Aguero and I was going in for contract renewal discussions this summer and Aguero just signs on 300k or whatever the figure might be, I'd want parity. They might understand it and accept that the reason he's getting paid so much is because it's a freebie signing, and still play quite happily for the club. But as soon as renewal talks come up, they have Sanchez wages to point towards.

They will look to the wages of Sanchez etc i.e. players of equivalent status at equivalent clubs when they come to renew.

You are also ignoring the fact that Sanchez's wage, as reported by Di Marzio, would have effectively been £325k a week if he signed in this window and £400k a week if he signed on a free in the summer.

 

[RC89]

They will look to the wages of Sanchez etc i.e. players of equivalent status at equivalent clubs when they come to renew.

You are also ignoring the fact that Sanchez's wage, as reported by Di Marzio, would have effectively been £325k a week if he signed in this window and £400k a week if he signed on a free in the summer.

Not to the same degree as they would if he's in the very same team.

Your second point, are you referring to the signing on fee taking it effectively to that sort of wages?

 

[utdman]

First of all does Carragher or any of these stupid pundits have proof that Sanchez had agreed to join City? And Seriously these people need to be slapped if they say that choosing us over City is because of Money. I mean how can someone be biased? Its not like we are Everton or Leicester who was taken over by the worlds richest man in the summer and we have money because of that now.

Maybe, Maybe Sanchez also would prefer United over City because he is a guaranteed starter here, while at City he has lot of competition. Or Maybe beacse United is also the biggest club in the world along with Barca/Real.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Not to the same degree as they would if he's in the very same team.

Your second point, are you referring to the signing on fee taking it effectively to that sort of wages?

Yes.

I think you have to be humble here though and accept that Gary Neville has far better insight into the life of a footballer than you or I. We might imagine what these players would do but he has actually lived it.

As for the other source I am citing, he knew that Sanchez had ditched City for about 24hrs before they seemed to start accepting it, so I believe it as a good a source as any.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

@RC89

This was posted in the other thread regarding higher wages for free transfers

Yes and same thing happened at Arsenal years ago when Sol Campbell was on a higher wage than Henry and Vieira since he moved for free from Spurs. They refused to renew his contract with similar wage so he left again for free.

 

[RC89]

Yes.

I think you have to be humble here though and accept that Gary Neville has far better insight into the life of a footballer than you or I. We might imagine what these players would do but he has actually lived it.

As for the other source I am citing, he knew that Sanchez had ditched City for about 24hrs before they seemed to start accepting it, so I believe it as a good a source as any.

Of course he knows more, but we see lots of ex footballers arguing exact opposite points. See Hargreaves v Owen on Sanchez to united/city. He of course has more insight, doesn't mean he's necessarily correct. You could quite easily have another pundit say the exact opposite.

 

[crappycraperson]

I saw both Hargreaves and Owen talking about this yesterday too and they are clueless. Owen thinks no attacking player should ever sign for Mourinho, not sure I would take his opinions seriously on this issue.

 

[RC89]

@RC89

This was posted in the other thread regarding higher wages for free transfers

Good point. Just a question, not really to do with our debate. Were his powers waning at this point? For them to not offer the same money I mean?

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Good point. Just a question, not really to do with our debate. Were his powers waning at this point? For them to not offer the same money I mean?

Probably. I can't remember tbh. Ashley Young and Mkhitaryan are two players on our books that have a higher wage for leaving with a year on their contracts. A lot of folks were incredulous with Young's £120k a week wages when he joined but that was why.

 

[Jim Beam]

Both made good points but what Carragher is ignoring/missing is everyone wants the best deal for themselves. ManCity were ready to pay 60 Million to sign him in summer now they don't want to pay more than 20 Million. Reason? They have favourable circumstances. Similarly Sanchez might have said ok for x million, but that doesn't mean he should agree for same in Jan. Reason? There is one more club who is willing to pay more.

Spot on. We're 6 months away from the previous "deal" and circumstances changed. Carra is missing this very simple fact and talking bollocks. For the very same reason, City is now not bidding 60 million which was previously agreed, Alexis has every right to go for the bigger offer which he previously didn't have.

I don't think that City pulling from this has anything to do with what Carra is saying. It's the way business work and City are very well aware of that. The reason is the wage structure and more importantly their team working excellent even without him. But, if City is 5 points behind us for example at this moment, they would pay up, though. Don't know how Carra can't grasp that.

 

[Irish Jet]

Verbal/Handshake agreements are totally worthless.

The window was open. United are well within their rights to make and approach and Arsenal/Sanchez are still well within their rights to get a better deal, a deal which evidently wasn’t on the table when he was in contact with City. You think anyone isn’t even going to take the phone call that offers them 30% more money across the board? City have no one to blame but themselves. They could have forced through the deal in the summer and maybe even in January if they were so inclined. Neville made a good point about this contradicting their model and it’s quite pretentious of their slave owning financiers to be looking for any sort of moral high ground.

It’s naïve from City if their feelings were hurt over that – We’ve deals hijacked with players having medicals, fecking Mikel was wearing our shite. It’s also quite arrogant to assume that Pep’s allure is worth what they’re suggesting, especially when weighed against Manchester United who aren’t quite the well-financed upstarts a cretin like Balague would have you believe. We’re actually quite a big club.

 

[Frank Grimes]

Sanchez is absolutely quality, no denying that

but £130k-£150k a week better than KDB or Aguero? no chance, unless City are happy to give those 2 players bumper salaries ontop of their already bumper salaries then I think to take on Sanchez and pay him said amount would be too much of a risk on the balancing act of keeping players happy and proportionately valued ect

It's not exclusively about him getting paid more, it's the whole package of the deal amortised over the length of contract. I'm sure city players are intelligent enough to reason why the Sanchez deal is a special case, when you pick up a player of his quality for less than the likes of Bolasie are going for in the current market.

There could be another reason why city are no longer interested, maybe they have moved on and are looking at other deals for the summer. eg. Kane.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

@Liver_bird etc

De Brunye's new contract is being reported at over £300k a week and rising over the course of the contract after everything is accounted for. The noobs on Bluemoon also reckon he will get a big signing on bonus too.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football...signing-new-man-city-contract-blow-barcelona/

 

[TheLiverBird]

It's not exclusively about him getting paid more, it's the whole package of the deal amortised over the length of contract. I'm sure city players are intelligent enough to reason why the Sanchez deal is a special case, when you pick up a player of his quality for less than the likes of Bolasie are going for in the current market.

There could be another reason why city are no longer interested, maybe they have moved on and are looking at other deals for the summer. eg. Kane.

Very true actually

agreed

He's also the kind of signing that would get other top players excited, they all want to play with the best

 

[Massive Spanner]

I'm usually a fan of Carragher as a pundit but his argument was ridiculous there.

I mean he literally said "it's not about money, but Utd are offering more money". Err..