Television Game of Thrones (TV) • The watch has ended
- Thread starter ha_rooney
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Probably sympathized with Hitler too the sick feck.
TBF I don't think there is anything wrong with them admitting they were too inexperienced at the start. Back in 2010 it was no guaranteed success and I remember after the pilot aired talking with other fans of the books about whether it would just be a one season and cancel. It was a gamble for HBO.
And they probably thought they'd just use Martin as a crutch to lean on as I remember the episodes he wrote in seasons 1+2 were highly touted and were part of what gained the show its initial momentum.
They really lost the plot when they failed to hire a professional writing team as they were both clearly out of their depth and then the way they just wanted to speed finish after s7 so they could move on to other projects was arrogant and stupid at the same time.
And they probably thought they'd just use Martin as a crutch to lean on as I remember the episodes he wrote in seasons 1+2 were highly touted and were part of what gained the show its initial momentum.
They really lost the plot when they failed to hire a professional writing team as they were both clearly out of their depth and then the way they just wanted to speed finish after s7 so they could move on to other projects was arrogant and stupid at the same time.
With the risk of sounding like the disgraceful D&D sympathiser I am, I don't really subscribe to this opinion. It took them 12 months longer than usual to make the final two seasons and the size of the production was bigger than ever for the last group of episodes they did. It ended up taking far longer to shoot episodes in the end. Not only that, but they did a handful more episodes than their original outline with HBO. And the timelines don't really match up either - Disney announced that D&D would be doing a Star Wars trilogy in February 2018, a month or so after the scripts for season 8 were finalised and sent to the cast and crew.
It's amazing how misinformation can become a meme and take on a life of its own when it's parroted enough by the right people. Another is the "Ah dun wan it, ah neva ahv" Jon Snow meme. He says the phrase "I don't want it" a grand total of three times in the last season (and only says it for the first time in the fourth episode), while he says the phrase "I don't want it, I never have" a grand total of once. Take a trip round the relevant Game of Thrones discussion boards on the Internet and you'd think it was the only thing he ever said during the last season.
Just cos Disney announced the star wars stuff after the script was finished doesnt mean there wasn't negotiations at the time the script was happening.
Anyway just read the prequel with Naomi Watts has been cancelled already
Anyway just read the prequel with Naomi Watts has been cancelled already
They really probably should give GoT a bit of breathing room after the barrage of hatred the final season got.
Do you really want me to tell you? I don't want to type a whole thing out if you don't really want to know why.
Fecking hell what a read. Good find.
They didn't understand the characters and wrote for the actors instead of the character, especially Arya. They let the actors redefine the characters. Explains a hell of a lot really, especially the absolute shite that Arya became.
Do you really want me to tell you? I don't want to type a whole thing out if you don't really want to know why.
Genuinely fascinated
Sorry for the wall of text.Genuinely fascinated
I should clarify that season 8 is my second least favourite season of them all (7 is my least favourite). There were issues with pacing (especially in The Last of the Starks), there were problems with a lack of detail that would have made a difference come the end, and I think it could have benefited from being at least 1/2 episodes longer. But I love the show and I loved the final season, so loving something means I can acknowledge its flaws and still take a great deal from it. I feel like I should make it clear that I do have a level of positive bias towards it, mostly because of everything it did for me when I started watching it back in 2015.
But regardless, I think what they did really took guts. It was really bold to decide to go down that route and stick to it. Before the season aired, my preferred ending, as it were, was for the Night King to take Winterfell, to be defeated at King's Landing, and for Cersei to somehow be taken down in the chaos, leaving Jon and/or Daenerys to either take the throne or hand it down to someone else. Looking back, I'm glad I had no say in how things went, because my version of the ending was far too simplistic, far too conventional, and actually betrayed everything the show (and books) originally wanted to explore.
Forgetting the books for a second, the show was always questioning the true nature of power and the human cost of lusting after it. How do people behave when they have power? Do they use it for good or evil? Does it consume them completely? What tactics do they use to hold onto it? If they don't have power, how do they go about seizing it? Are they ever willing to give it up if doing so is for the greater good? Can you rule the land and "break the wheel" at the same time? Can you weigh up your personal demons against your responsibility to be an honourable human? And so on and so forth.
I think the way the show ended considered those questions again after season 7 essentially ignored them (which is why it's my least favourite season). How did Daenerys behave when she finally had ultimate power? Did she use it for good or evil? Did it consume her completely? Could she rule Westeros and "break the wheel" at the same time? Did her personal demons stand up to scrutiny when her responsibility was to be a good person? You get what I mean. Remembering the books for a second, GRRM said that ASOIAF was supposed to be an analysis of "the human heart in conflict with itself".
With that in mind, Daenerys was just a flawed person like any other in this story, as capable of slipping into authoritarian mode as she was capable of slipping into liberal mode, and vice versa. The moment she burned King's Landing to the ground was just one of her many displays of authoritarianism, it just so happened to be her final major act and thus defined her legacy. Trying to read her story as a familiar "progression", as though her arc told the story of someone who went from being a compassionate ruler to someone capable of such villainy in the blink of an eye, wasn't how I took her story in the end.
There's a reason why the description of most Targaryens' nature is constantly related to a coin toss in that popular Westerosi saying - it (and by extension, Dany) can land on any side at any moment because of a range of factors. Ruling and breaking the wheel don't go hand in hand with fairness. The closer she got to seizing the Iron Throne, and the more her ruling Westeros became a possibility, the more paranoid she became about losing it. She made enemies of potential allies and her advisers, she stopped seeing common people and started seeing disloyal subjects. And then she was all alone, on top of that dragon with the world in her hands, hearing the people she wished to rule crying out in fear rather than celebration. How did she wield that power?
There were little details I wish they'd kept in, like the scene they cut from the finale where Bran allows a beetle to walk over his hand and away to safety. In that moment he has ultimate power and chooses not to wield it, he just lets the world carry on as it would have anyway. It's a neat little way of showing that he has no interest in starting a dynasty or controlling the continent with an iron fist, and it also calls back to that scene where Tyrion wonders why his cousin mercilessly smashes beetles when they pose him no harm.
There was loads of other stuff too - how they essentially used Jon to deconstruct the tropes of the "prodigal son" in fantasy storytelling, how they used Jaime to show that characters don't get redemption arcs just because we want them to - but I thought the main beats of the story were all completely dead on and brought the show back around to focusing on what it originally wanted to explore. I think it could have done with a little more breathing room - for example, I think rushing straight into the battle for the Iron Throne immediately after ending the Long Night was a lot for the audience to handle - but it told the story it needed to.
We're currently in an age of politics, especially in America (crucially where D&D are from), where people are looking for lone figures to make huge changes to long-standing systems that will either consume them or break them. It doesn't matter if that's lefties voting for Bernie Sanders, the white underclass voting for Trump, liberals voting for Hilary, nothing will change how those people want it to. Dany's ending is "meet the new boss, same as the old boss" told in the most brutal fashion. It's nihilistic and cruel but I think it was necessary.
I could go on and on and on and on about the final season and explain in even greater detail all the little things I love about it, but I'll just leave you with a line Tyrion says in The Last of the Starks that should explain why the Night King was easier to kill than human greed and the lust for power: "We may have defeated them, but we still have us to contend with."
But regardless, I think what they did really took guts. It was really bold to decide to go down that route and stick to it. Before the season aired, my preferred ending, as it were, was for the Night King to take Winterfell, to be defeated at King's Landing, and for Cersei to somehow be taken down in the chaos, leaving Jon and/or Daenerys to either take the throne or hand it down to someone else. Looking back, I'm glad I had no say in how things went, because my version of the ending was far too simplistic, far too conventional, and actually betrayed everything the show (and books) originally wanted to explore.
Forgetting the books for a second, the show was always questioning the true nature of power and the human cost of lusting after it. How do people behave when they have power? Do they use it for good or evil? Does it consume them completely? What tactics do they use to hold onto it? If they don't have power, how do they go about seizing it? Are they ever willing to give it up if doing so is for the greater good? Can you rule the land and "break the wheel" at the same time? Can you weigh up your personal demons against your responsibility to be an honourable human? And so on and so forth.
I think the way the show ended considered those questions again after season 7 essentially ignored them (which is why it's my least favourite season). How did Daenerys behave when she finally had ultimate power? Did she use it for good or evil? Did it consume her completely? Could she rule Westeros and "break the wheel" at the same time? Did her personal demons stand up to scrutiny when her responsibility was to be a good person? You get what I mean. Remembering the books for a second, GRRM said that ASOIAF was supposed to be an analysis of "the human heart in conflict with itself".
With that in mind, Daenerys was just a flawed person like any other in this story, as capable of slipping into authoritarian mode as she was capable of slipping into liberal mode, and vice versa. The moment she burned King's Landing to the ground was just one of her many displays of authoritarianism, it just so happened to be her final major act and thus defined her legacy. Trying to read her story as a familiar "progression", as though her arc told the story of someone who went from being a compassionate ruler to someone capable of such villainy in the blink of an eye, wasn't how I took her story in the end.
There's a reason why the description of most Targaryens' nature is constantly related to a coin toss in that popular Westerosi saying - it (and by extension, Dany) can land on any side at any moment because of a range of factors. Ruling and breaking the wheel don't go hand in hand with fairness. The closer she got to seizing the Iron Throne, and the more her ruling Westeros became a possibility, the more paranoid she became about losing it. She made enemies of potential allies and her advisers, she stopped seeing common people and started seeing disloyal subjects. And then she was all alone, on top of that dragon with the world in her hands, hearing the people she wished to rule crying out in fear rather than celebration. How did she wield that power?
There were little details I wish they'd kept in, like the scene they cut from the finale where Bran allows a beetle to walk over his hand and away to safety. In that moment he has ultimate power and chooses not to wield it, he just lets the world carry on as it would have anyway. It's a neat little way of showing that he has no interest in starting a dynasty or controlling the continent with an iron fist, and it also calls back to that scene where Tyrion wonders why his cousin mercilessly smashes beetles when they pose him no harm.
There was loads of other stuff too - how they essentially used Jon to deconstruct the tropes of the "prodigal son" in fantasy storytelling, how they used Jaime to show that characters don't get redemption arcs just because we want them to - but I thought the main beats of the story were all completely dead on and brought the show back around to focusing on what it originally wanted to explore. I think it could have done with a little more breathing room - for example, I think rushing straight into the battle for the Iron Throne immediately after ending the Long Night was a lot for the audience to handle - but it told the story it needed to.
We're currently in an age of politics, especially in America (crucially where D&D are from), where people are looking for lone figures to make huge changes to long-standing systems that will either consume them or break them. It doesn't matter if that's lefties voting for Bernie Sanders, the white underclass voting for Trump, liberals voting for Hilary, nothing will change how those people want it to. Dany's ending is "meet the new boss, same as the old boss" told in the most brutal fashion. It's nihilistic and cruel but I think it was necessary.
I could go on and on and on and on about the final season and explain in even greater detail all the little things I love about it, but I'll just leave you with a line Tyrion says in The Last of the Starks that should explain why the Night King was easier to kill than human greed and the lust for power: "We may have defeated them, but we still have us to contend with."
Yeah it sucked. Someone should have been the light bringer. I figured three dragons and lose one then tyrion should have been the rider
Why did this come back up? It's too damn painful to remember this show. Let it die. Please. Best show ever made. Fecking destroyed in 1 season
What happened to the other dragon??
I think they ran out of money
And he won't finish the rest of the story
Robin posting spoiler tags in the GoT thread. Yeah I'm not opening that.
It's cool it's just his timeline for Season 9
I reckon the prequel is netflix bound.
It's been cancelled though right? At least one of the planned shows anyway.
Talking of GoT, Benjen has been cast as a pretty big role in the lord of the rings tv show apparently.
The announcement came pretty on time with them leaving the star wars projects. Somethings going on. Hbo can pass on it, doesn't mean they can't take it elsewhere.
That sounds about right. Lotta these guys are interchangeable.
After the last three ( I would say three) seasons are we all in agreement this show deserves to be nowhere near the best of all time list?
I think that's a bit harsh. The first 4 seasons were terrific. 5th was poor but still provided stellar television with Hardhome. 6th and 7th weren't without flaws but still in terms of entertainment they were pretty good. It's only the last season that was rubbish in every sense.
If you look at the cultural impact of this show it has to be amongst the top tier of television shows of all time.
Yeah, it had a massive impact... but not the critical acclaim. The ending actually makes me question the quality of the earlier seasons.
The title Song of Ice and Fire is likely related to the Robert Frost poem basically saying that it doesn't matter whether the world end by being frozen or burnt it still ends- so it's long been thought that Dany might end up as a villain, we'll see. (Or more likely, won't )
You're entitled to your opinion. I thought that the series was terrible in pretty much every sense bar the music, set design etc.
Jesus, what a load of old waffle.
Well I guess this is what it ultimately boils down too. If you see the series through the eyes of the final season, then yes it does feel underwhelming. But for me, the earlier seasons were stellar and I can view them independent of the final season and hence appreciate the show as a whole a little more.
The last season of The Wire was much weaker than the first four too but it doesn't stop me thinking it's the best show ever made. The Sopranos and Mad Men both had a noticeable dip in quality in their last few seasons too.
I don't think GoT is near any of those three in a "greatest ever" list, probably top 7-10, and the last two seasons (I still thought S6 was excellent) don't change that for me, even though they were terrible.
I don't think GoT is near any of those three in a "greatest ever" list, probably top 7-10, and the last two seasons (I still thought S6 was excellent) don't change that for me, even though they were terrible.
What drop in quality are you talking about? The ending was perfect as far as I'm concerned.
The ending was great but the overall quality wasn't as good. Same with The Wire, actually.
Oh and The Wire is a 10/10, go wash your legs.
I meant that very last season. For me it is definitely a 10 show overall.
Well we finally agreed on something, I guess we're friends now.
Didn't they agree to a 300 million deal with Netflix? Don't think D&D give a rat's Arse about Star Wars as long as the money keeps pouring in. At least star war fans can breath easy now.
Just saw that Benioff wrote the script for Gemini Man, how the feck is this guy getting all this work after fecking up the most popular TV show in the world?!
Just saw that Benioff wrote the script for Gemini Man, how the feck is this guy getting all this work after fecking up the most popular TV show in the world?!