Television Game of Thrones (TV) • The watch has ended

[Dante]

They fired like 4 shots in to the back of the Wight lines, what a barrage.

The dothraki charged head on with light cavalry in to a packed infantry army, with zero disruption coming to the front of the wight lines beforehand. They couldn't outflank the wights

It made sense to nobody with a hint of military experience ever. Literally as soon as I saw them charge I laughed because it was that stupid. Light cavalry charge in to an abyss unsupported by archers or infantry against an enemy who can turn your dead bodies in to their own soldiers, gg.

Again, the Mongols used lances specifically designed to break infantry formations, rained arrows down on the enemy formations to disrupt them, but most importantly they were the best co-ordinated army of the Medieval era. No Mongol army would ever charge in to an abyss with no scouting or clue about the enemy because they were tactically superb.

The dothraki should have either a) simply accepted that a cavalry force in this scenario (siege defence) is tactically foolish and abandoned the horses. They're superb fighters on foot as well and 100,000 extra troops guarding the walls (which had nearly nobody actually on them) or the gates would have been priceless. They're portrayed as skilled archers, get a line of them on the walls.

Or b) found space on the flanks to attack the rear of the wights whilst the unsullied held the line. This is hard because visibility is basically zero and the wight army is humongous, you're not going to be able to co-ordinate any flanking manoeuvres.

The worst thing they could possibly do is abandon the main army and go on a suicide charge well ahead of everything for no other justifiable reason other than 'well dats wat da dothraki do init' as if that somehow justifies throwing away 100 thousand of your best troops.

It wasn't 4. It was about 20 or 30, and that's just what was visible on the screen.

The barrage happened before the Dothraki met the Army of the dead.

Here's a decent write-up of the impossible situation faced by the Army of the Living:
https://slate.com/culture/2019/04/battle-winterfell-military-analysis-tactics.html

None of this makes the cavalry charge a good idea. But the mistake was made in the days before the Battle of Winterfell, not in the minutes before the charge. The best employment of the Dothraki would have come as long range scouts and skirmishers in the days before the battle. Even then, however, their utility was limited; cavalry often succeeds by disrupting supply lines and ambushing foraging parties, and Team Dead needed neither of these. And in any case, unless Team Alive spared a dragon for air support, any accumulation of Dothraki would have been vulnerable to Viserion. If the Dothraki had not charged, they would have found themselves pinned against the infantry, their mobility lost. If they had moved right or left in search of Team Dead’s flanks, they would have run the risk of being flanked themselves (Team Dead also had cavalry, and its infantry was fast and fearless) or destroyed by Viserion and the Night King.

They were always going to lose. It's much more obvious in hindsight, but an overconfident Dothraki hoarde is in keeping with their characterisations up until this point.

Maybe you're coming at this from the point-of-view of a book reader. But as a show-only watcher, everything I'd seen up until this point gave the impression of the Dothraki as almost invincible.

 

[GhastlyHun]

They were always going to lose.

And here we are back at square one: bad writing. If you want Team A to win, don't write Team B invincible.

 

[Dante]

And here we are back at square one: bad writing. If you want Team A to win, don't write Team B invincible.

Bad writing? It's the central conceit of the entire narrative. The whole point is that the Army of the Dead are invincible. Blame GRR Martin for coming up with that world.

 

[Redlambs]

Hahahaha. I mean really since you passed them off as theories then it wouldn't really have spoiled anything since people would have assumed what you was saying was just guesswork at the time.

Anyways doesn't seem too bad to me really, unlike that silly cnut who just point blank spoiled the Avengers ending for everyone then had the cheek to say "Why am I getting abuse"

He passed off leaks as his theories and wrote a timeline that could have spoiled the entire series

But it was also at a time where others were doing it deliberately too, all so they could try to look clever. Robin here was the most obvious and funniest with the timeline thing though, it was hilarious which is why people still joke about it

 

[GhastlyHun]

Bad writing? It's the central conceit of the entire narrative. The whole point is that the Army of the Dead are invincible. Blame GRR Martin for coming up with that world.

I'll reserve my judgement on that for the point when he has worked himself up to that confrontation.
At this point with the show there isn't much left to blame him for.

 

[Samid]

I liked the snidey little prick but the fan service in that scene was proper cringe. Double D have gone full Marvel.

 

[Fully Fledged]

 

[Dante]

I'll reserve my judgement on that for the point when he has worked himself up to that confrontation.
At this point with the show there isn't much left to blame him for.

The Army of the Dead were a really well realised enemy. And their (near) invincibility is a brilliant aspect to their characterisations that had been present since the very first episodes written by Martin. That aspect of the Wights added loads of tension to the show. Criticising it is borderline ridiculous.

Given the mystery shrouding the Army of the Dead in the Battle of Winterfell, the initial charge/bombardment was a reasonable gamble that might have worked in light of the Dothraki's mobility and experience in open fields. Everything shown so far in the show suggested that. It's only in hindsight that it's obvious it wouldn't. The visual impact of that realisation was a fantastic cinematic moment.

 

[shamans]

The Mongols used shock cavalry to break lines after an initial aerial barrage. That's exactly what happen with the Dothraki storming the army of the dead behind the shots from the Stark trebuchets.

The Dothrakis are (were) the ultimate offensive force who had supreme confidence in themselves and who had never lost a battle. In hindsight, it was the wrong tactic. But in the moment, it would have made sense to anyone who had seen them fight.

Into negative numbers?

Sure buddy.

 

[GhastlyHun]

The Army of the Dead were a really well realised enemy. And their (near) invincibility is a brilliant aspect to their characterisations that had been present since the very first episodes written by Martin. That aspect of the Wights added loads of tension to the show. Criticising it is borderline ridiculous.

You're putting up one strawman after the other. I am criticizing not the conception of the Walker/undead threat, but D&Ds ideas about confronting the undead army in an unwinnable one-off battle. We can be sure that this situation will never come to pass in GRRM's work. (Or if it does... then the undead win.)

 

[shamans]

The Army of the Dead were a really well realised enemy. And their (near) invincibility is a brilliant aspect to their characterisations that had been present since the very first episodes written by Martin. That aspect of the Wights added loads of tension to the show. Criticising it is borderline ridiculous.

Given the mystery shrouding the Army of the Dead in the Battle of Winterfell, the initial charge/bombardment was a reasonable gamble that might have worked in light of the Dothraki's mobility and experience in open fields. Everything shown so far in the show suggested that. It's only in hindsight that it's obvious it wouldn't. The visual impact of that realisation was a fantastic cinematic moment.

I know you're talking as a passionate fan maybe but sorry that part was just stupid and all for show. The only argument you could make is it was a cool drama visualization which is fine but it didn't help with suspending disbelief for most viewers I believe.

It was incredibly stupid at the time too because as soon as they started charging I was confused. Had no clue why these horses are going at it alone while the rest of the army is watching. As for mongols, they would throw arrows then go back then throw arrows then go back. They'd harass the enemy. Not just charge.

 

[Bubz27]

He had his mark on him though. Why was Arya immune from anything?

How do we know Arya was immune? Let's see the repurcussions this week.

But even if she hasn't got anything, before when NK has touched people it's been his intention to mark or turn. It's not like it's out if his control.

 

[Dante]

I know you're talking as a passionate fan maybe but sorry that part was just stupid and all for show. The only argument you could make is it was a cool drama visualization which is fine but it didn't help with suspending disbelief for most viewers I believe.

It was incredibly stupid at the time too because as soon as they started charging I was confused. Had no clue why these horses are going at it alone while the rest of the army is watching. As for mongols, they would throw arrows then go back then throw arrows then go back. They'd harass the enemy. Not just charge.

There was a trebuchet barrage (equivalent to the arrows you mention). The Dothraki may well have retreated then re-engaged had they not been routed.

People are confused by quantum theory. That doesn't make it stupid. Your logic is flawed.

 

[Dante]

You're putting up one strawman after the other. I am criticizing not the conception of the Walker/undead threat, but D&Ds ideas about confronting the undead army in an unwinnable one-off battle. We can be sure that this situation will never come to pass in GRRM's work. (Or if it does... then the undead win.)

The undead did win. Maybe you missed that.

 

[Dante]

Sure buddy.

When have we ever seen the Dothraki show any vulnerability in battle? Never.

 

[MadMike]

Given the mystery shrouding the Army of the Dead in the Battle of Winterfell, the initial charge/bombardment was a reasonable gamble that might have worked in light of the Dothraki's mobility and experience in open fields. Everything shown so far in the show suggested that. It's only in hindsight that it's obvious it wouldn't. The visual impact of that realisation was a fantastic cinematic moment.

There was feck all mystery. Jon, Danaerys and a few others had seen pretty much the entire undead army at Hardhome and the encounter where Viserion was killed. They knew what they were up against.

Charging a cavalry, in the darkness, without dragon glass weapons, without air support into the masses of the undead was a reasonable gamble only if the IQ levels dip into the negatives.

The correct course of action would have been to ground them and get them to man trenches, barricades and choke points. Their “strengths” in conventional combat were a weakness against that particular enemy. Just because you’re good at punching doesn’t mean it’s reasonable to punch a brick wall.

If the undead had failed to pave a way, the NK would have to step in the open and use Viserion to pave the way. Which would have allowed Jon and Dany to engage him 2v1. The name of the game should have been to protect life until the NK made his move. Not throw it away at an open field charge.

 

[shamans]

There was a trebuchet barrage (equivalent to the arrows you mention). The Dothraki may well have retreated then re-engaged had they not been routed.

People are confused by quantum theory. That doesn't make it stupid. Your logic is flawed.

Oh my... a trebuchet "barrage" is not the same as horse archers. Trebuchets don't even move around like that. A trebuchet barrage with light cavalry archers charging in and the rest just looking on. "Quantum theory" you're giving some lazy writers a lot of credit. Unless you're trolling in which case you definitely got me.

 

[shamans]

When have we ever seen the Dothraki show any vulnerability in battle? Never.

Sir Joroh Mormont killed that Dothraki guy in minutes didn't he.

 

[Irrational.]

That's totally fair enough. You can foe me if you want, or whatever it is that means none of my posts show up in your feed. I made my bed eighteen months ago and being allowed back in doesn't mean everyone should just suddenly forget what happened. Back then I watched TV differently and the role that Internet discussions played in my life was much larger. Frankly, I had an obsession with being right and I got pretty angry with myself when I wasn't - that affected my behaviour in this thread when season 7 was aired. But, you know, time goes on, things change, and so do people I suppose.

As for every previous leaker being allowed back in, if I'm allowed back in then those banned previously for similar offences probably should be too. It wasn't my decision to be reinstated but I don't want to be the only beneficiary of the new posting guidelines for the thread. But on the other hand, if the general consensus is that it's everybody back in or nobody back in, then I'm comfortable with being locked out again. Sure, I got the itch when the season started again (hence me asking to be let back in) and I've lurked after every episode to see what the Cafe has made of them, but if this is still a sensitive issue for people then I completely understand. I'm under orders to be on my best behaviour and I will stick to that. However you respond is totally fine.

*Raises sword*

The King in the Microwave!

 

[shamans]

When have we ever seen the Dothraki show any vulnerability in battle? Never.

Sir Joroh also mentioned how 2000 unsullied defeated 30000 Dothraki. This was in their own land as well. You're clutching at straws here.

 

[Redlambs]

Sir Joroh Mormont killed that Dothraki guy in minutes didn't he.

Yeah but that was before his armour somehow turned to sponge.

 

[Dante]

There was feck all mystery. Jon, Danaerys and a few others had seen pretty much the entire undead army at Hardhome and the encounter where Viserion was killed. They knew what they were up against.

Charging a cavalry, in the darkness, without dragon glass weapons, without air support into the masses of the undead was a reasonable gamble only if the IQ levels dip into the negatives.

The correct course of action would have been to ground them and get them to man trenches, barricades and choke points. Their “strengths” in conventional combat were a weakness against that particular enemy. Just because you’re good at punching doesn’t mean it’s reasonable to punch a brick wall.

If the undead had failed to pave a way, the NK would have to step in the open and use Viserion to pave the way. Which would have allowed Jon and Dany to engage him 2v1. The name of the game should have been to protect life until the NK made his move. Not throw it away at an open field charge.

Nobody has every seen them fight an army head on, least of all a fearsome undefeated fighting force like the Dothraki.

When United played Barca in 2011, I was confident. It's only in hindsight I realised how futile that was.

Hardhome was chiefly an evacuation not a battle.

 

[GhastlyHun]

The undead did win. Maybe you missed that.

And then - abracadabra! - they didn't. 10/10

 

[Dante]

Sir Joroh Mormont killed that Dothraki guy in minutes didn't he.

One-on-one combat is not a battle.

 

[Dante]

And then - abracadabra! - they didn't. 10/10

In which case, the Dothraki charge worked.

 

[RedSky]

Yeah but that was before his armour somehow turned to sponge.

He was wearing his cosplay armour this episode, as was Theon. Goddamn Television Crew got them both killed by switching it ffs.

 

[shamans]

Nobody has every seen them fight an army head on, least of all a fearsome undefeated fighting force like the Dothraki.

When United played Barca in 2011, I was confident. It's only in hindsight I realised how futile that was.

Hardhome was chiefly an evacuation not a battle.

You were confident but you didn't decide to play 5 men while the other 6 watch because Rooney and Giggs could handle it?

 

[Dante]

Sir Joroh also mentioned how 2000 unsullied defeated 30000 Dothraki. This was in their own land as well. You're clutching at straws here.

Which episode was that?

 

[shamans]

Yeah but that was before his armour somehow turned to sponge.

You don't understand armor physics and scientific methods that leave your metal vulnerable to being pierced. It's not the writers fault.

 

[Redlambs]

He was wearing his cosplay armour this episode, as was Theon. Goddamn Television Crew got them both killed by switching it ffs.

At least they remembered something. Old one-eye had his spray painted on when he forgot his gym clothes!

 

[GhastlyHun]

In which case, the Dothraki charge worked.

 

[Dante]

You were confident but you didn't decide to play 5 men while the other 6 watch because Rooney and Giggs could handle it?

That's exactly what happened.

We believed the attack was potent enough because that's what they'd proven in the league. Whilst the defence sat back, the gap between the forwards and the defenders got too big and we got picked off.

Jon Snow is the Sir Alex Ferguson of battlefield Generals.

 

[Redlambs]

D&D are definitely Ed Woodward and his twin sister then.

 

[Dante]

That's true by your own logic that the ultimate outcome is the most important thing. You introduced that argument in your previous post. I'm just echoing it.

 

[MadMike]

Nobody has every seen them fight an army head on, least of all a fearsome undefeated fighting force like the Dothraki.

When United played Barca in 2011, I was confident. It's only in hindsight I realised how futile that was.

Hardhome was chiefly an evacuation not a battle.

Your post make less and less sense with each iteration. But it’s been a good troll I’ll give you that

Or at least I hope it’s a troll for your sake.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

It wasn't 4. It was about 20 or 30, and that's just what was visible on the screen.

The barrage happened before the Dothraki met the Army of the dead.

Here's a decent write-up of the impossible situation faced by the Army of the Living:
https://slate.com/culture/2019/04/battle-winterfell-military-analysis-tactics.html



They were always going to lose. It's much more obvious in hindsight, but an overconfident Dothraki hoarde is in keeping with their characterisations up until this point.

Maybe you're coming at this from the point-of-view of a book reader. But as a show-only watcher, everything I'd seen up until this point gave the impression of the Dothraki as almost invincible.

They were fired in to the back of the Wights. That's going to do nothing to disrupt their formations at the front, which is where the Dothraki are charging. The Mongols hailed arrows upon the front ranks they were going to charge in to because it disrupted their formations.

The situation was impossible, sure. But that doesn't mean the human defenders would abandon all sense of tactics or strategy. It's not a case of hindsight, most people identified the charge as idiotic the second it started, no half decent commander would ever have OK'ed it.

I'm not a book reader, but a light cavalry only army with no armour or lances isn't nigh on invincible in any way, shape or form. That would make no sense. In the TV show they've only won a single big battle on screen (ambushing a spaghetti line of Lannister troops with dragon support) and otherwise have just been spoken about.

 

[Dante]

Your post make less and less sense with each iteration. But it’s been a good troll I’ll give you that

Or at least I hope it’s a troll for your sake.

What do you disagree with?

 

[Redlambs]

Your post make less and less sense with each iteration. But it’s been a good troll I’ll give you that

Or at least I hope it’s a troll for your sake.

BOOK READERS!!!

 

[Dante]

They were fired in to the back of the Wights. That's going to do nothing to disrupt their formations at the front, which is where the Dothraki are charging. The Mongols hailed arrows upon the front ranks they were going to charge in to because it disrupted their formations.

That's never made clear in the show. The darkness of the mise-en-scene was intended to portray the fog of war for exactly that reason.

The situation was impossible, sure. But that doesn't mean the human defenders would abandon all sense of tactics or strategy. It's not a case of hindsight, most people identified the charge as idiotic the second it started, no half decent commander would ever have OK'ed it.

I'm not a book reader, but a light cavalry only army with no armour or lances isn't nigh on invincible in any way, shape or form. That would make no sense. In the TV show they've only won a single big battle on screen (ambushing a spaghetti line of Lannister troops with dragon support) and otherwise have just been spoken about.

If they've been spoken about, that's what we have to take as narrative background.

 

[Dante]

BOOK READERS!!!

They're incapable of apprecitating the show as a piece of cinema rather than a realisation of a larger narrative that they've previously read.