Television Game of Thrones (TV) • The watch has ended

It's definitely been "rushed" to end, unfortunately you can feel that. But the spectacle of it is still fantastic.

The scene where the Dothraki were racing towards the Wights with flaming fireballs above their head was just amazing.

I don't really read too much into the "poor battle tactics" as it's just a show.

I do wish a few more people died, I was sure 1 of Jaime/Brienne/Tormund was going, especially the way they built it up and were showing each other saving them.

The ending with Arya was great but I was disappointed there wasn't a proper battle between them and the whitwalkers before hand, it all seemed a bit of a waste.

Still a fantasic show, great episode overall.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
It's an interesting new(ish) phenomenon actually. Fans spending hours and hours online, completely immersed in a fantasy universe, speculating about what might happen in the future. Obsessing about tiny plot details and coming up with elaborate theories to pull them all together. Then boom, plot twist. The writers don't share their vision. Worst movie ever!

Out of interest, has any piece of entertainment that attracts this sort of obsessive fan ever ended up not disappointing large numbers of them?
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Star wars?
 
For 8 years and 2 weeks we have been hearing winter is coming and when it finally arrived it only took one night to end it.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
It's an interesting new(ish) phenomenon actually. Fans spending hours and hours online, completely immersed in a fantasy universe, speculating about what might happen in the future. Obsessing about tiny plot details and coming up with elaborate theories to pull them all together. Then boom, plot twist. The writers don't share their vision. Worst movie ever!

Out of interest, has any piece of entertainment that attracts this sort of obsessive fan ever ended up not disappointing large numbers of them?
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People were mostly pretty satisfied with the ending of Breaking Bad, werent they?

Its another point for your social media thread. Another thing on the negative side of the scales: it has ruined peoples' ability to enjoy their favourite boxsets.
 
I actually think that Jaws and Alien and definitely something like Moby Dick help demonstrate the weak, lacklustre storytelling of the Night King. For a start you can look at the way that the unfathomable other actually helps inform the character of Brody and Ripley and Ahab. Then root around in those murky thematic depths to see what these entities represent in and of themselves and what their deaths might mean to the story.

Jaws is only 2 hours long, is rich with symbolism and cohesive consequential storytelling and even has a 'sploding shark. Night King is what happens when you leave frozen meat out on the counter for 8 seasons.
 
2cents said:
I don't hate the show. I think it's gone completely ridiculous in recent seasons but I still enjoy it, albeit in a very different, less satisfying way.

The Jaws analogy doesn't work for me, even without knowing much specifically about sharks we already understand a great deal about what motivates predatory animals in general before watching it, so no explanation is really required. (though if you want to go down that route, Jurassic Park does attempt to give the dinosaurs a bit of depth). On the other hand, we do get a good sense of what lies behind the actions of Brody and the other two.

The "back story" is the foundation of Game of Thrones, it's crucial to understanding the motivations of the different characters, their houses and their struggle for power. Which is why the lack of an explanation for the primary antagonist feels a bit hollow and makes him seem pointless.
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I was actually thinking of comments from other posters re hating the show because the villain didn't get enough back story. It was similar with Star Wars. The villain didn't get enough screen time, he died too easily yadda yadda yadda. It just feels as though so much criticism is based on a hypothetical plot - created in the heads of fans - that didn't happen, rather than the actual show in isolation.

My Jaws analogy was a bit crap but I'm sure we can come up with loads of examples of perfectly interesting screen villains who never needed any kind of back story to work as an antagonist. How about Michael Myers in Halloween?
 
Adebesi said:
People were mostly pretty satisfied with the ending of Breaking Bad, werent they?

Its another point for your social media thread. Another thing on the negative side of the scales: it has ruined peoples' ability to enjoy their favourite boxsets.
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Hmmm. Kinda? I actually can't remember!

Maybe there's a nerdy obsessiveness that is unique to sci fi/fantasy fans that doesn't apply in other genres?
 
If I was a TV executive reading this thread I would definitely be thinking about a Jaws prequel, charting the journey our favourite Great White took before the fateful events in Amity.

Season 1 could kick off with our hero chomping on some seals in Canada.
 
Still got three episodes left - I am honestly flabbergasted that they made the Night King so stupid and also the major issue of the crypts was found out to be true (so dumb).

However, I'm hoping that there's some mega twists to be had and that Cersei/Mountain/Euron (oooo not Euron!)/Bronn + cross bow isn't the final battle. Not much time to wrap up, but the existential threat from the North is hopefully not over.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Hmmm. Kinda? I actually can't remember!

Maybe there's a nerdy obsessiveness that is unique to sci fi/fantasy fans that doesn't apply in other genres?
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Perhaps. Fan fiction is a pretty big thing in those genres, mainly because people enjoy those genres because it allows some escapism.

I think a large part of the problem why people didn't like that episode wasn't that theories were ruined (some butt hurts will clearly). But it's the whole build up of the Great War, the build up of the White Walker storyline which has been brewing since S01E01 and then it gets snuffed out straight away in one episode. There's little pay off for the 8 season wait. Those like yourself who never really enjoyed that storyline won't care, those that did care however feel short changed.

I think it's mainly down to budget however and thats ultimately why they decided to end the story arc straight away. They also probably shouldn't have released the teaser promo with the map room, that was some pretty shite misdirection on their part.
 
Mr Pigeon said:
But we did get more about his character, it just wasn't verbally explained.

So we know that the Night King was created to kill all human life. He's a husk that has only one goal. And yet, despite that, he has still maintained enough free will to hunt down the remaining Children of the Forest in revenge for what they did to him. He's also decided that killing humanity isn't enough and wants to also remove any memory of their existence (well, at least Bran told us that much). Instead of just following the impulses that he was born to have, he's smart enough to make his own choices in that regard. And let's not forget that he's a cocky bastard who likes a bit of theatre - at Hardhome where he stared Jon down as he raised the dead, the way he smirks at Dany after the dragonfire does nothing to harm him, and also we've seen him on two occasions stare at 3 Eyed Ravens for a while instead of just killing him (in my head he's savouring the moment).

Is it a perfect backstory? Of course not. But short of having Bran find a little book documenting what the Night King wanted and translations of the symbols, or even worse having the Night King talk, there's not really much else they can do to explain what he wants.
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I'll wait until the season is over before assessing the character in full, since there may be more to come on him from Bran. But as it stands he doesn't work for me, feels very out of place in a show which made its name for its depth and character complexity. If that's it for the Night King and his mates, then it's hard to understand what the point of his story was in terms of the broader show, beyond some admittedly great spectacles (Hard Home especially).
 
the night king and his army were too powerful, no matter how they were defeated it would have felt underwhelming. that's the problem with writing bad guys with too much power. it tends to be the problem with most good v evil movies and shows.
 
2cents said:
I'll wait until the season is over before assessing the character in full, since there may be more to come on him from Bran. But as it stands he doesn't work for me, feels very out of place in a show which made its name for its depth and character complexity. If that's it for the Night King and his mates, then it's hard to understand what the point of his story was in terms of the broader show, beyond some admittedly great spectacles (Hard Home especially).
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Its always felt a bit bolted on to me, I have to say. Like the "Game of Thrones" element was what really excited the TV execs, and the "Fire and Ice" part was only in there because it came as part of the package.
 
2cents said:
I'll wait until the season is over before assessing the character in full, since there may be more to come on him from Bran. But as it stands he doesn't work for me, feels very out of place in a show which made its name for its depth and character complexity. If that's it for the Night King and his mates, then it's hard to understand what the point of his story was in terms of the broader show, beyond some admittedly great spectacles (Hard Home especially).
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Yeah, I get what you're saying. I expected more at this point (I hope I'm wrong but I doubt that we'll find out more unless Bran is somehow involved). The writing for the Night King has been more Dorne plotline than the Dorne plotline.
 
Spark said:
Still got three episodes left - I am honestly flabbergasted that they made the Night King so stupid and also the major issue of the crypts was found out to be true (so dumb).

However, I'm hoping that there's some mega twists to be had and that Cersei/Mountain/Euron (oooo not Euron!)/Bronn + cross bow isn't the final battle. Not much time to wrap up, but the existential threat from the North is hopefully not over.
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If they feck up my boy Bron, simply because story now dictates characters instead of the other way around, then I'll be sending a lot of staffie turds in the post.
 
stepic said:
the night king and his army were too powerful, no matter how they were defeated it would have felt underwhelming. that's the problem with writing bad guys with too much power. it tends to be the problem with most good v evil movies and shows.
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I would actually say that the rot sets in the moment you give yourself up to a moral realist universe and start writing good and evil characters, for a book and (early on) tv series that specifically courted moral ambiguity.
 
Mr Pigeon said:
Cersei has also levelled up, don't forget. I'm amazed that such a tyrannical queen, who blew up the centre of the people's religion and undoubtedly killed hundreds if not thousands in the wildfire blazes, hasn't had to deal with any peasant revolts or rebellions. She must be a proper genius mastermind now. Also don't forget that Qyburn is the smartest person she has ever met... Wait a second...

Cersei says Qyburn is the smartest person she's ever met. Arya says that Sansa is the smartest person she's ever met....... Oh my fecking god. Oh my god, of course. They're going to set up a Trial by MasterMind!!!!!!!! 60 seconds. Answer as many questions as you can on your chosen subject. Sansa picks The History of Lemon Cakes and Qyburn picks 100 Things To Do With Your Zombie Hand.
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The Hound...you are the weakest link...goodbye
 
dumbo said:
I would actually say that the rot sets in the moment you give yourself up to a moral realist universe and start writing good and evil characters, for a book and (early on) tv series that specifically courted moral ambiguity.
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which is strange that Martin included them in the first place. one can only assume he has a particular point to them, given they are so one dimensional.
 
stepic said:
that's the problem with writing bad guys with too much power.
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They did the same with Daenerys, both of whom had to make shite decisions to even the scales. Now Cersei has the power... shit decision incoming!

But yeah, they had ample opportunity to even the scales a bit with the white walkers, having a zombie dragon certainly was a cool moment but it made them incredibly strong. It's the tv writers preferring cool moments over sensible decisions.
 
stepic said:
which is strange that Martin included them in the first place. one can only assume he has a particular point to them, given they are so one dimensional.
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I don't know and I don't read the books but I keep hearing that the Night King doesn't exist in them and my guess (based on odd book talk I overhear) is that the whites are depicted as an amoral force of nature.
 
Adebesi said:
People were mostly pretty satisfied with the ending of Breaking Bad, werent they?

Its another point for your social media thread. Another thing on the negative side of the scales: it has ruined peoples' ability to enjoy their favourite boxsets.
Click to expand...
Thought the machine gun bit was silly, to be honest.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Hmmm. Kinda? I actually can't remember!

Maybe there's a nerdy obsessiveness that is unique to sci fi/fantasy fans that doesn't apply in other genres?
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Probably sci fi / fantasy shows literally have no limit to what the backstory could be so fans can speculate. A bad guy in a show grounded in reality probably had a bad up bringing, came from a bad neighbourhood or supported United in the 2010's so its not really worth speculating on.
 
dumbo said:
I don't know and I don't read the books but I keep hearing that the Night King doesn't exist in them and my guess (based on odd book talk I overhear) is that the whites are depicted as an amoral force of nature.
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The White Walkers (Others) have barely featured in the books at all so far.
 
2cents said:
Yeah compared with say Sauron and the Nazgul, we know feck all about the White Walkers. We got that one bit of information that they were created by the children of the forest, but that was more of an "okay?" moment than "ah right, of course", since we know feck all about the children of the forest as well, and in any case nothing further was elaborated. So we're basically left with - children of the forest created the white walkers, who then want to destroy mankind every few thousand years and are really really cold, because. That's it.
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Pogue Mahone said:
I’m kind of confused why people put “back story” on such a high pedestal?

Like literally deciding they hate a tv series purely on the basis that they don’t learn enough about the motivations and childhood trauma of a massive, scary dude who can make the dead come back to life.

Just seems a little odd to me. I enjoyed the hell out of Jaws without desperately needing to know exactly how that shark ended up at that beach, that summer.
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Personally i like the fact that the White Walkers are just ice cold killing machines. I dont need back story or narative, it makes them scarier having them as they are.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I was actually thinking of comments from other posters re hating the show because the villain didn't get enough back story. It was similar with Star Wars. The villain didn't get enough screen time, he died too easily yadda yadda yadda. It just feels as though so much criticism is based on a hypothetical plot - created in the heads of fans - that didn't happen, rather than the actual show in isolation.

My Jaws analogy was a bit crap but I'm sure we can come up with loads of examples of perfectly interesting screen villains who never needed any kind of back story to work as an antagonist. How about Michael Myers in Halloween?
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The Joker in Dark Knight is a good example. I'm sure he has plenty of backstory in comic books, but from the movie itself, he just tells a few different versions of his dad being a bit of a cnut and that's it. He's just there, wanting to see the world burn.

Feck backstory. The Night King is just an evil monster who wants to destroy mankind. Who needs more backstory than that. I actually would've preferred game of thrones without dragons and the undead. The actual game of thrones is by far the most interesting thing to me. I don't care for the high fantasy black vs white good vs evil stuff.

That's just personal taste though.
 
GloryHunter07 said:
Personally i like the fact that the White Walkers are just ice cold killing machines. I dont need back story or narative, it makes them scarier having them as they are.
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It does sort of make sense as well, considering that the children of the forest or whatever they are called created him to be a weapon more than anything else. I doubt they made him to have an interesting personality.
 
Shinjch said:
It does sort of make sense as well, considering that the children of the forest or whatever they are called created him to be a weapon more than anything else. I doubt they made him to have an interesting personality.
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Yep. As Tiryon said "I can't find an organisation less suited to my skills"

Would have been fun to see some NK bants though :lol:
 
Adebesi said:
It's funny, before this season started I wondered how they were going to get everything done in six episodes. Now, three episodes in, I'm wondering how they'll stretch whatever they have left for three more episodes.
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Said it after the first two episodes. There’s clearly feck all left in Martins story in terms of important plot points. Otherwise we’d have got two 10 episode seasons for 7 and 8.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I’m kind of confused why people put “back story” on such a high pedestal?

Like literally deciding they hate a tv series purely on the basis that they don’t learn enough about the motivations and childhood trauma of a massive, scary dude who can make the dead come back to life.

Just seems a little odd to me. I enjoyed the hell out of Jaws without desperately needing to know exactly how that shark ended up at that beach, that summer.
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I do agree with you that people take this stuff WAY too seriously. One of my brothers was showing me people posting all this abuse of the writers, saying how they'd betrayed the fans, betrayed the cast and staff, betrayed GRRM, how they'd wasted hours and hours on something so crap. It all seems very entitled to me.

I'm very much like 2cents though. I'd have liked a bit more of a backstory and it hasn't quite gone as I thought. I enjoy the books far more than the TV show but also enjoy the TV show. I've also noticed a significant drop off in the quality of writing since they've no longer had the books as source material but I've lowered my expectations and enjoy it accordingly as a spectacle.

I find it very strange how heated people get about this or about their favourite comic book films or whatever.
 
So were they Children if the Forest on Bran’s side? They were there with the Wights when the Night King was defeated right? Or was that just a load of dead people?
 
Adebesi said:
People were mostly pretty satisfied with the ending of Breaking Bad, werent they?
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I remember a good few people on here being pissed off with it.
 
Woodzy said:
So were they Children if the Forest on Bran’s side? They were there with the Wights when the Night King was defeated right? Or was that just a load of dead people?
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You mean in this last episode? I don't think there were any children of the forest, the last of them died out when Bran fecked up and invited the Night King into the 3 eyed raven's lair didn't they?
 
Woodzy said:
So were they Children if the Forest on Bran’s side? They were there with the Wights when the Night King was defeated right? Or was that just a load of dead people?
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Children of Forest lived in Westeros alongside man until man started a war. Children of the Forest were losing so they created the White Walkers. We then see them again at the three eyed raven and they all died (all 4/5 of them) when Bran got 'marked' by the Night King. We basically have very, very small snippets of information about the White Walkers and Children of the Forest at this point.

Hard to tell if they were part of the Army of the Dead, they all looked human to me.
 
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